sl33py

With the Count just there and ppl having non Skylines in the list, I now have the tune "one of these things is not like the others...." from Playschool in my head

I'm keen to know if anyone's tried the setup in diagram 9. I'm SURE I'm not the first to think of it, and hope it's been tried already. Maybe SydneyKid or someone with experience in track.

It's a topic as old as the hills, but some people might find this post useful by gathering information in one place, especially those new to the RB series. There are so many options. I'm just outlining what I've found while researching, not arguing for or against. I'm not the most technically minded and although I've looked at my RB engine a lot over the past few years, I've always come away a bit confused, not quite clear, and thinking it just had too many darn pipes to get my head around. I drew some (very) rough diagrams to help me understand what might be the most cost effective IC choice and piping layout for me. I hope those diagrams are correct enough to get the point across. They are definitely not to scale (otherwise we'd all have ~400rwkw hahaha), but I've just discussed what I've read and learnt about each, and also drawn up one which I haven't seen before (and I wonder why). If I've said anything incorrect let me know, I wouldn't want to lead anyone down the garden path. The diagrams were made in Paint. Go jump if you think they are poor I'm sure there's better out there, but maybe not a lineup like this. I've also included links to photos of the setups where I can. I can't vouch for the links working as they aren't mine and are from various sources. Diagram 01 is just the layout of the stock RB25DET engine. Nothing complicated, just to show the parts. The front of the car is towards the bottom left. Diagram 02 is the same again, but shows the air flow. The air enters the compressor turbine either via a POD filter (boxed or unboxed) OR the stock airboxed (stock or modified). The air then passes through piping underneath the airbox down the front bumper to the side mounted intercooler. It is cooled here. Then it travels back up over the top of the engine block and into the intake manifold (/plenum) for combustion. The exhaust exits the chambers through the exhaust manifold (red part in Diagram 1). Exhaust exits the engine through the dump pipe, and as it goes it spins the fan in the compressor (intake) side of the turbo faster, creating more boost. I won't go into an explanation of vacuum's and operating during lag and during boost, there are WAY more qualified people for that! Anyway, on with the show. Looking at the picture below, you can see why if your new to the engine it's hard to see what's happening - it's mostly hidden under the airbox and inside the bumper. Diagram 03 is the basic layout when the common front mount intercooler is installed (FMIC), such as a Trust M Spec kit. The air follows the same process, but the intercooler extends across the front of the engine bay and the outlet piping comes up from the driver's side of the bumper. It get back to the inlet manifold, the average piping kit snakes its way over the top of the radiator fan, passes over the engine block and mates up to the intake. First point to notice, this is a lot more piping than the standard SMIC setup. This is why many people report an increase in lag after fitting a FMIC with on other modifications to suit. There is all that extra piping to fill up with pressure before the engine will respond. These kits can sometimes require cutting of the car frame/metal to fit the pipes. Usually not much. This kind of kit nearly always requires the stock airbox to be ditched, and a POD filter used instead. Some people have modified their airbox to keep it. Some fit a separator of cold air box around the POD. Both of the latter are used in states where having a POD _AND_ a FMIC at the same time is illegal. Some argue that PODs should never be left exposed because they will suck hot ambient air from the engine, others say it makes little to no difference. Some love the induction noise of an exposed pod, others want to avoid it and box up the pod to help achieve this. And a slight variation with less 'square' angles to avoid the heat of (/hitting) a high mount turbo: Some people also don't like the fact that the piping passes over the engine so close, saying it heats up the piping, increasing air intake temps and as a result robbing power. Heat resistant tape can be used to avoid this, as can heat proof coating, but this is more expensive. Another consideration is that if you have a large or high mount turbo, this piping route can pass right over the top of the turbo, which some say will have the same effect as passing over the engine bay, but much more so (since the turbo gets much hotter). My diagram is particularly dodgy here, as more often than not the inlet and outlets are oriented at the bottom of the intercooler. This is the most common intercooler setup, is proven to achieve the aims desired and can be bought very cheaply these days, and often fitted by the mechanically inclined. Diagram 04 is an intercooler kit which reuses most if not all of the stock piping, and (hopefully!) requires no cutting to the metal. I've only seen these kits on eBay so I couldn't say an example of a brand. However, they are not available from the likes of Trust/Blitz/HKS etc (but please note they are similar to Diagram 05 which ARE). I dunno much else about it, so just enjoy the (un)pretty picture This kit has the benefit of looking stock upon cursory inspection. Inlet and Outlet same side Diagram 05 is very similar to the setup in 04, but the outlet of the intercooler is on the opposite side to the inlet. On one hand, the air travels through the FMIC all in the one direction (as opposed to D04), but on the other hand, at one point the air has to do a VERY acute angle, which some people don't like. Manufacturers which make this kind of kit are Blitz (LM model) and ARC. This kit also has the benefit of looking stock upon cursory inspection. Some people think the return pipework on this kind of kit hangs too low and is at higher risk of hitting stuff. Also, the plastic shielding will have to be fudged with to fit one of these. And another variation where one of the pipes (the inlet I think) comes behind the core. This would be better in terms of how long the pipework hangs, but again, sharp bend in the piping at one end and I haven't seen any big brands make this sort. One pipe behind the core Diagram 06 is one I've learnt about only recently. It is the same as the Trust style setup to the point when the air exits the intercooler. Instead of passing up over the radiator fan and across the top of the block, it passes up over the driver's side of the engine block and does a reasonably sharp (~120 degrees) angle into the manifold. This _should_ avoid most of the heat issues possible with the basic Trust type kit, and also makes a significant reduction in the length of pipe in the system, which purportedly reduces lag. Intercooler kits including pipes like this are available from Hypertune, Plazmaman or can be made up by a local shop if you give them good enough instructions or they've done it before. The piping kits can also be bought separately, allowing you to use an intercooler core of your choice, just make sure the parts will all fit together! An example of this kit can be seen in the Gibson Motorsport R31. Gibson Motorsport/SydneyKid Style Diagram 07 is a forward facing plenum setup. These theoretically avoid the heat issues of 03 and 06, with the added benefit that it's now easier to access the coilpacks/plugs, and there is less piping than any other setup described so far. The main issue I'm aware of, and it's been measured and recognised as fact, is that since the air isn't entering the chamber from the centre, an inbalance will form between the front and rear cylinders. Unless the manifold is VERY well designed, this could cause problems. Some ECUs can vary the spark/fuel to each cylinder individually, and this can be used to minimise these effects. Some people modify the stock manifold so that it's intake is at the front. I don't think I'll get flamed too badly if I say most consider this a bad idea, as it mucks up the flow, and will exhibit the issues stated previously, only much worse. Forward Facing Plenum Diagram 08 is one that I found halfway through writing this (hah!). I know very little about it have only seen this one picture like it. It is basically a Trust kit, but the airflow is opposite to usual. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it doesn't make the sparks/coils any easier to get to, and the pipe lengths look similar (or longer) to a Trust M style kit. It just shows there is lots of choice in modding the RB "Reverse Flow" Style Finally, Diagram 09 is something that occurred to me. I'm sure someone's come up with it before but I've never seen anyone talk about it, and never seen it in real life (admittedly I haven't looked to hard). It's basically the same as 06 and 07, but instead, the air would entering the chamber from the outer side of the manifold, instead of looping over the engine to meet the stock inlet. At first this would appear to be a very direct route for the air to enter the chamber. It would avoid passing over the engine bay (so no hassles getting to the sparks/coils). It would have a little less piping than setup 06, and just a little more than a forward plenum. The only possible issues I can see are: - Clearance with the bonnet and other engine components - My suspicion that the intake was designed to curl over the top of the block to create some kind of "ramming" effect on the air just before it enters the manifold. I think it would be really interesting to see if the last type works. Anyway, I think that's a nice wrap-up of the intercooler and piping options that the average street-goer might choose. I'm sure there are more wild and whacky setups for racing etc. Edit: Numbered the diagrams, added more pics

I dunno why but I found this amusing. Does this mean I just hit the "restart level" button (I'm sure it's got one) if I prang the car?

1) Is this groupbuy still up, or going to be again in the future? 2) As someone asked above, what boost levels will the stock piping suck closed? 3) Can these pipes be used on an R33 if I'm keeping the stock airbox? Or is it only intended for people using open pod filters? A picture of one fitted would be really useful. I plan on buying a Trust type intercooler, but also one of those piping kits where the piping sweeps over and to the left (looking at the front of the engine), avoiding the airbox (and might mod the airbox itself later too).

I intend to get a FMIC and a piping kit which allows me to keep the stock airbox. I also plan to make some modifications to the airbox so the intake snorkel is larger (like SS Inductions makes). Will this mod still be applicable to me? The FMIC will most likely be a Trust kit, sorry I don't know what the piping kit looks like but hope it doesn't matter in answering the question!

I admire anyone who can do this kind of stuff at home. Wow. Never even hearad of fuel coolers til now haha

Maybe the water pump

I had a very similar problem on my all-but stock R33. I would be driving at very low throttle through say a car park and the rev would drop JUST below the minimum needed not to stall. This would happen at lights too while trying to sedately take off. Very annoying. My mechanic only found it by bashing my TPS with a hammer (he was getting desperate lol) while the car was idling - the voltages went berko and all over the place. He said they looked fine while just measuring them normally, but a bit of stress or a bump or whatever and it was game over. Might be that. Get violent

Damn! Kinda doubled up, here is a similar thread: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/t186161.html Though I was thinking primarily about on the track.

x2! Electric... as opposed to mechanical right? Like the electric thermo fans which run directly off the battery instead of running off the engine (I think)?

I would get: 1) A new insurance company 2) New shocks/springs if not already replaced 3) Upgraded brake pads, maybe rotors (just on the fronts). 4) If you did 1), then whatever you like from here I'd say ECU/chip. You're in the same spot as me, only I've done 2) and 3) and boy do they make a difference.

The Autronic SM4 will do whatever you want, it's up there with Motec and Haltech if the tuner knows what they are doing. One of the peculiarities of the SM4 is that you need to get a custom trigger disc installed into your crank angle sensor (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's the terminology). From my recent reading, it appears to be a very capable unit. Especially if your tuner can use the auto-tune feature. But again, a lot less people have experience with this than the Haltech, which is similarly priced and has very similar features. Seriously, ECU is one of the times you DON'T want to try being different just for the sake of it. I know it's been said a bajillion times, but go with whatever your trusted mechanic/tuner likes to use.

Oh - circuit use. And with a 40mm radiator/PFC/FMIC. Not much else. I don't know about oil cooler yet, was going to go back to the track with the radiator and see how it goes with info from this thread in mind

What are typical/expected readings or ranges for water temp, oil temp and oil pressure under 'race' conditions for an RB motor? (plus any other measurement I haven't thought of). And what are abnormal/dangerous numbers? I know there aren't any hard and fast rules, and some purpose built race engines will be very different, but let's say for the average road going skyline modded up to maybe an after market turbo, ECU and supporting mods. And if you could only have 1 or 2 extra gauges on a GTST, what would they be? Obviously you need after market boost cos the stock one is inaccurate and has stufall range. I know I'd like a water/coolant temp at the very least. What else is good to have?

Fark. All that money and still the suspension not done! 430kw would be nice though

frangipani hahaha

By the way, who manufactured the stock turbo on the R33s? A mate asked, and I know it, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. It's some really boring company name like Hitachi or some bl00dy thing, but I don't remember! Anyone?

If you reread the section about the Reytec all they say is things like "sounds like a has a lot of promise" and junk like that. They don't say enough detail about it. I think the REAL jap tuners are all using HKS FCON Pro (but only BD4s do it in AU I think). Also, they completely missed the EManage Ultimate, another ECU which is gaining some popularity here (it floats around on the first page of the Forced induction thread). They just had one or two sentences on the EManage Blue, which most here say is only good for a mildly modded Skyline at best. But the Ultimate is different. I was tossing up between the EManage (lack of experience with tuners) or the Haltech E11V2 (very capable but exy), but then I found a Power FC for *very* cheap. I also went "hmmm" when I read about the "cons" they mention of the PFC, but have spoken to many ppl and read Paul's FAQ a few times now, and it's still a very good option. I figure even if it dies after a few years and can't be replaced, by that time one of the ECUs will have taken the lead and the choice will be easy again.

Maybe you've got the powerball spinner under there! Take her to the doctor!

Feck. I'd hazard a guess a fair bit of money went into some of those Supras. But yeah, would be interested to know how much work done on suspension etc and if well thought out, or just "gimme numbers" Or maybe the average Supra TT owner just has more money to burn?

The front looks VERY Aston Martin Vanquish-y to me! It looks more euro than jap. I guess they had to try and do something different. Also agree GTR should be GTR and that's it. if they want lesser versions, call them GTST's again (though I think these are all AWD, so that would break the pattern). Haven't seen a speedo with 80-100 where it is on this - looks whacky Although not much stranger than Audi's with their markings at 50-70-90 instead of 60-80 etc. Friends don't let friends buy Bose, if I got one of these, I'd be ditching the sound system. Also wish it was manual. Bring on the R34 GTR price crash!! (but I think they will bear the brunt pretty well and hold their prices for some years yet). But in the end, just glad Nissan are still making great performing cars!

works

Cool! Now we're talking. Is a breather tank the same as the header tank mentioned before? If so, that's one yay and one nay for them... I read that 'how to' by SydneyKid, very informative. Will get onto it when I do this other stuff. That harmonic balancing stuff sounds a bit beyond what I need to worry about - never heard it mentioned before! Only that you need to get good balancers if you want to rev your engine really high. Maybe this is a different thing though. These are the kind of mods I would like to do before even thinking about a turbo swap etc. Yes, they are very boring and no, they don't really give any extra power, but I think they are things that should be done to over engineer the engine before just whacking a buttload of air and fuel into it, in a fashion it's never seen before or expected to receive I don't have "money to burn", but I do want to prevent problems rather than fix them up later, and I will sink money into stuff that I know others would deem useless (at this point). Especially since the areas I'm looking at now are the sort that if they go wrong, they can go VERY wrong, not like a clutch just wearing out over time. RE shrouds: The radiator I'm getting is a direct replacement. If you have a look where the stock radiator sits, it's actually got a ton of room in front and behind it. My mechanic is only going to charge me one hour's work for it (possibly out of pity cos I just had to drop several grand on fixing suspension problems, but I'll take that charity ). infected_flow: I'm driving it like a race car when I'm on the track I had it up round 5-6k on most corners, but I wasn't bouncing it off the limiter. I hit it once but that was by mistake. I actually asked the instructor if I'm worse staying high in the revs or lower revs but on boost most of the time. If by human error u mean crashing, I was a bit chicken and not even hitting the ripple strips as hard as I should have. I'm working on being smoother on my (already upgraded) clutch. As for tuning, my mechanic knows my goals of extreme reliability and hassle-free running. He will always give me a very safe tune (not that I've even got the PFC in yet). So radiator, oil cooler, air deflectors/dams where possible, I plan on getting an Apexi power intake, simply because (apparently) they require NO maintenance and they don't use oil (so no risk of the AFM going bung like I've read happening) and I'm sick of cleaning/oiling my K&N panel and waiting for it to dry. I will add a cold air box and also a snorkel below it. I'll probably get a new fuel pump so I can be sure it's 100% capable for what I ask of it.

The actual number I'm putting in is distance in cm from the driver's ears. So because it's not as straight forward as the front splits, you're probably right - trial and error. Just thought there might be some trick to it before I go buggerin' about with the stereo like rainman It actually cleared up the sound with the front speakers noticeably! I was surprised. I guess I'd say the imaging got better, panning effects and stuff were clearer.