level323

Hi again, $400 later and all you were left with was an evacuated non-functioning system. Ouch! NatRad wasn't lying that R134a wouldn't work in your system. Even if there was no "blockage", charging the system with R134a (flushing beforehand) would never perform well and ultimately likely end in the death of your system. Google R134a black death" to learn more. What they didn't tell you was that if your system was in all respects functioning (just requiring refrigerant), then you would get great results with HyChill Minus 30. People's opinions on whether not hydrocarbons are a legitimate option has been turned into a controversy by those seeking to protect their existing control of this market. Therefore, many workshops (like your local Natrad, by the sounds of it) won't offer it as an option, despite the fact that the Australian Government's own studies show that hydrocarbons have at least 8% market share in Australia (download the PDF linked HERE and see 3rd last para on p30) and it's on record as being commercialised in car AC for over 20 years with no significant negative safety trends - and despite the most important fact of all.... namely that it's far and away the most cost effective path to a functioning AC system for you (and one that kicks ass, performance-wise). OK, so back to trying to get your system working.... It seems clear that you have some functional problem with your system. I think it's a fairly safe bet that there is indeed a blockage of some kind. That needs to be resolved as a priority (and any other faults that may exist). Forget about charging the system with refrigerant until you isolate and rectify these faults. My expertise centers around hydrocarbon safety. May I introduce you to one of our motor vehicle AC specialists who can assist you further? If so, PM me your preferred contact methods (phone numbers, email, whatever). Cheers John

Gday Brett First things first... re your mention of this weird quote from NatRad. Specifically what did NatRad say about your AC system? What was their diagnosis? PS - Apologies in advance if the holiday period adds additional delays in responding over the next two weeks or so. Cheers John

Hi Brett, Unless you've physically disassembed every part in the circuit and individually drained (and flushed, using an appropriate fluid that will flush the lubricant) there will almost certainly be some oil left in the system. This means that even if you know the correct quantity of oil that should be in the system for optimal operation, you will have a tough time knowing exactly how much to put in in your particular circumstances because of this unknown quantity of residual lubricant. I hope that makes sense :-) Before we go further, could you clairify what you mean by "I've drained the old oil out"? Could you explain what you did in a little more detail. I need to get a better handle on the proportion of oil you've likely removed. Cheers John

Thanks Rolls. As with any successful business that's in it for the "long haul" the success comes from creating happy and informed customers, not quick sales. Cheers John

Hi Dennis, For some reason I didn't get a notification when you replied - so sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, we do supply Minus 30 in 300 gram cans (they look like aerosol cans). We don't advertise to end-users - we focus on supplying tradespersons. However, there is ultimately nothing stopping you from getting the gas, hoses etc from one of our distributors and DIYing it. Keep in mind though that it is illegal to handle R134a (the traditional refrigerant that is normally fitted to vehicles at point of manufacture) without an ARC license, so the proper course of removing the R134a is to take the vehicle to an ARC licensed tradesperson and have them recover the R134a gas first. This is the law because R134a is an extremely potent greenhouse gas. As to your fridge - if it runs on R134a then Minus 30 will work in it's place, however I would suggest you think carefully before going down this route, for the following reasons:: 1. The hazards surrounding the use of a hydrocarbon refrigerant as a "drop in" replacement to R134a in a fridge are actually significantly higher than using it in your car AC. The reason is that the interior space in the fridge is a quite tightly sealed space and some fridges (especially the older ones) may have sparking components within that space (thermostats, door switches etc). In open spaces, if you're lucky (or unlucky) enough to get a hydrocarbon ignition, it typically results in a fairly uneventful "flash fire" that flames out in under one second with minimal secondary impacts. However, ignition inside an enclosed space (such as inside a fridge) can lead to a dramatic build-up of pressure which could result in a rather dramatic rupture of the fridge like an explosion. There are documented cases of this happening (albeit rare). It's also occurred as a result of faulty whipped cream cans leaking their pressurisation fluid into the interior of the fridge. That said, around half of the worlds fridges now use hydrocarbons, but these fridges are all designed specifically with non-sparking components to eliminate the possibility of ignition in the rare case that there is a leak of just the right amount, at just the right time, at just the right location, to pose a flammability risk. 2. Fridges use very low charges of refrigerant. In the case of current models of hydrocarbon fridges the charges are typically around 60 grams. You really need to have experience with charging fridges and possess sufficiently precise tools in order to avoid overcharging or undercharging. Getting the charge wrong will (at best) result in poor efficiency and (at worst) significantly shorten the life of your compressor. There's a bit to think about in there so I'll leave it at that for now. Cheers! John

Hey there Shaker351. You're in luck. I actually work for HyChill. Not only that, but I'm a proud skyline owner! '89 Gts-t 4 door RB25DET 280rwkw... and of course the AC runs cold as ice on HyChill Minus 30 ;-) It's funny how many times I see enquiries like this on various forums. I say it's funny because I know that all you need to do is call us and we'll give you a list of our last known HyChill-using workshops in your local area. Specifically, call Ross on 0407 545 548 and he'll get you the info you're after. I guess many people think of companies generally just want to sell stuff and don't want to talk with customers - but we don't work that way. Call us any time and we'll do our best to help (even if you're using other gases!). Cheers John W Clark Technical Advisor HyChill

Hi, Are you offering the passenger and driver side kick panels? Also interested in the rear seat if it's in good condition. PM me

Hey man, Interested in the clutch. Do you have a part number for it or do you recall what power it was rated for? Thanks

Sending PM momentarily, sir.

I'll take it at the quoted price of $50 + $30 postage. PM me if interested.

Hey inark, Glad to hear you found the information valuable. I appreciate your interest in this important environmental issue and your willingness to 'spread the word'. All the best with the upcoming AC work and if you have any further issues just give HyChill a call. Cheers John Clark Technical Advisor

Hi there Wyseman, I'm on holidays at the moment so only have 'net access infrequently. I'm sorry you're not having much luck finding anyone that will do a HyChill regas on the weekend. Naturally you will have more difficulty finding people who are open on the weekend. There's a chance they'll be a bit more expensive for weekend service too. If you've been calling people out of the phone book, my recommendation is to get a list from Ross at HyChill instead. HyChill is in roughly about 10%-15% of cars is Australia, so that means roughly 1 in every 7 to 10 workshops use HyChill. So if you're doing a phone book search you'll strike out most of the time. Although our database of HyChill friendly workshops doesn't include such details as whether or not they open on the weekends, Ross should be able to help you find a workshop that does what you want, when you want (or something as close as possible). You can call Ross at 1300 HYCHILL or email him at [email protected]. Cheers John Clark Technical Advisor HyChill

Hey Hot300zx, Sorry I'm taking so long to reply at the moment. It gets exceptionally busy for me around this time. I'll try my best to contribute something to the 300zx forum as soon as I can get a minute to scratch myself. In the meantime, I'll just throw in some quick comments here. I had a quick skim over the thread on the ZX site you linked to, and here's what I think are the key issues concerning what was said in that thread: 1. With all due respect, people using the terms "big bang" or "explosion" is simply nonsense. When HC's of this type burn, they neither make a 'bang' noise nor do they 'explode'. That is basic (read: high school) chemistry. HC's are not explosives. Read some of my earlier posts for more detail. 2. 990TTZ is right - HC's are used in the USA quite a bit. In actual fact they are used most widely in the USA, despite the fact that their use is banned in certain states as a result of heavy lobbying by the f-gas industry (which included scare campaigns to politicians and the media where they would show video's they developed of faked 'explosions'). When the first HC domestic fridges were being made, the f-gas lobby saw the writing on the wall and went so far as publishing propaganda pieces in major print media saying that HC fridges would be "Bombs in the kitchen" - that is a direct quote from an article I have somewhere in one of my boxes here in my dungeon!!!!! There's about 50 grams of HC in the average fridge - so the whole idea of a 'bomb in the kitchen' is absolutely totally ludicrous. 3. 'cbzx' on that forum seems to be the guy making most of the arguments against using HC refrigerants in car AC. He refers to an alleged incident in Queensland. Here's the facts on that incident: (a) The only "facts" anyone seems to have is the unverified article and 'safety alert' published by the Chief Gas Examiner in Queensland. (b) The Queensland state regs in effect at that time required the Gas Examiner to file a full and complete report of the incident. HyChill was (naturally) very interested in this alleged incident, and so lodged an FOI request with the Gas Examiners department for all related documents. The FOI response was that there were NO documents relating to the incident and certainly no report filed as required by QLD regulations. Plain incompetence by the very man responsible for those regs or something more sinister? No one really knows. We tried to contact the workshop through various channels and no one there would say anything to us or to other people asking on our behalf. Very strange. (b) Even so, the article published by the Gas Examiner about the alleged incident admits that the practices of the service-person were inappropriate. In other words, if basic procedure and precautions has been adhered to, the circumstances for ignition would never have presented themselves. The incident, if it really occurred, is regrettable. What is clear, even from the scant information available, is that the workshop practices were plainly wrong (no matter if it was HC or an f-gas), so it's a fairly long bow to draw to use this as an anti-HC proof-piece. There have been a couple of other HC-related workshop incidents around the world in the last 15 years. There have also been a number of f-gas related incidents. The undeniable fact is that the incident rates for both types of gases are very low, and are proof that there is NOT a recurrence of safety incidents at anything like the rate that demonstrates the product is unsafe in the workshop or in operation. I'm not saying that HyChill gas is idiot proof and totally benign. Like most products (even water and drowning), it has risks. If you want to ignore proper procedure, you can hurt yourself with this stuff. You can kill yourself with R134a too - it's been done quite a few times before. The Queensland Gas Examiner is one of the people in Australia who has been giving HyChill a really hard time. He's bent over backwards to make it hard to use HC's in car AC in that state. A few years back he managed to get a ban up in QLD regulations. That no longer exists - he replaced it with a licensing regime for fitters. The Queensland Gas Examiner was involved in the original staged 'Exploding Car' video that made it on to Channel 10 News back in the early 90's. It was a completely staged and flawed propaganda piece. From memory, I recall they got normal LPG and filled a wrecked car cabin full of it. They had problems getting it to ignite so they resorted to using explosive DETONATORS to get the desired visual result! Furthermore, my recall is that those detonators were supplied by the Gas Examiner himself! Such were the charades of that era. The f-gas lobby was hoping to kill HC refrigerants before they got a foothold in the market here. They lost that battle, but they are such a large a powerful lobby they may still win the war. I repeat: There is a propaganda war going on here. The domestic fridge story is a really useful case study here. Such was the FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) created in the minds of the refrigeration industry back in the late 80's by the f-gas propaganda machine that NOT ONE fridge manufacturer would make a fridge using HC refrigerants. Yes, you'd think industry people would know better... but they're only human and fear is powerful. In order to break this deadlock, Greenpeace went and bought a run-down East-German fridge factory and started making HC fridges themselves. Their popularity broke the deadlock and showed how easy and safe it was. Fast-forward to today and you'll find that the majority of domestic fridges use HC's. It's comforting, but incorrect, to think that people's fears can be removed by simply explaining the facts and showing good reason why their fears are unfounded. But it just aint so. This knowledge is one of the tools in the spin-doctor's toolkit. You see it used all the time - particularly in politics. The same war has moved from the field of domestic fridges (which has long since been won) and is now being fought in the car AC area. Another tool is to flood the marketplace of ideas with so much contradicting information that people give up in frustration, not knowing what to think or who to trust, and resign themselves to just doing what everyone else does. No wonder nobody believes anybody else these days. Hopefully I'll have some time to get on the ZX forum. 'cbzx' claims to have some kind of direct connection to the incident in Queensland, so I'd like to talk with him to get more specific information on this mysterious event. But I must say that when 'cbzx' makes really quite ridiculous statements like "There May be less Skylines soon" (inferring that they're going to explode or something when fitted with HyChill refrigerant) doesn't fill me with a great deal of confidence that this guy is all about spreading constructive and truthful information. Hope this helps. Cheers John Clark Technical Advisor HyChill

Hi again to everyone reading this topic, I've had my head down and tail up since returning to work on Monday, but I've squeezed enough breathing space to reply to the new posts, where necessary. I'll respond to each post below, roughly in date order. Firstly though, regarding all the posts asking for their nearest AC workshop that uses HyChill, the best way to find out is to contact Ross at our office. HyChill is widely used across the country (and in a number of other countries) and so you can be quite confident that there is a HyChill-friendly workshop in your area. The best ways to contact Ross are: 1. By phone during business hours on 1300 HYCHILL (that's 1300 4924455) 2. By email to [email protected] Our lists are as up-to-date as they can possibly be, but it's important to keep in mind that workshops move, change hands and change product allegiances all the time so it's hard to keep the lists perfectly accurate. So if one shop on the list can't do it, try another. Even better, let us know if you have problems with any particular AC shops and we'll update our lists if necessary and try to help you out further. Here's my responses/comments to the newer posts: Sandeep, I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but my guess is that the most Z32 owners get R134a conversions because they're not aware that there is a better and cheaper option... or they're deciding based on misinformation from a workshop that has swallowed the f-gas industry's hook. Using HyChill Minus 30 in a Z32 should work fine. Z32 AC systems are fundamentally no different from the others. For all you guys that are currently using R-12 or R-134a (f-gases), I would highly recommend that you get a flush. A flush will remove the lubricant also, which is good because that means you can replace it with a superior oil that doesn't have the toxicity and corrosion problems that PAG oil has. Instead, request a high quality POE type or mineral type oil, or HyChill's own synthetic (PAO type) lubricant. Why? Because a regas will leave a residual quantity of f-gas in the AC system (entrained in the oil). The consequences of this are: * Your AC system will continue to be at risk of internal corrosion and problems relating to the corrosive nature of the residual R134a and the lubricant. * If there is enough residual f-gas in the system, operating pressures will higher than they need to be. This means that cooling times and engine load may not be as good as they could be. The amount of residual f-gas depends on how good (and how long) the vacuum pumping process is. Compressors usually cost at least $800 - $1200, and often more. Getting rid of the corrosive issues by completely removing both the R134a refrigerant and the PAG lubricant is the SINGLE MOST beneficial thing you can do to get much longer life out of your compressor. Removing these corrosion sources will have similar effects on the longevity of the other two expensive parts of your AC system, the condenser and evaporator. The story is different for R-12 systems (that is, basically all pre 1994 systems). R-12 does not have anywhere near the same corrosive issues as R134a, and R-12 is compatible with mineral oils. So most (if not all) R-12 systems use a non-PAG oil. This means that conversion of an R-12 system to HyChill is much easier, because you don't need to remove every trace of the R-12 and lubricant. A good regassing is all that's needed in this case. That's good news, but I cannot stress enough the long term benefits of changing the oil as well. Although it is an added up front expense, getting a flush will remove the corrosive oil and refrigerant AND any 'gunk' that's developed due to the corrosive action of these fluids up until now. Your compressor will pay you back this courtesy with a significantly longer lifespan. Note to the hopeful: HyChill Minus 30 is superior, but it's not a magic potion. If your compressor is 90% dead it won't magically make work like new again. Just thought I'd make sure we're clear on that! That's a very good point you raise, SS8_Gohan. This is a big topic, but I'll try to keep my response brief(ish!). The short answer is "it depends". Here's the salient points: If your AC system is more than a few years old, then it's probably using an f-gas called R-22. R-22 is from the same era as R-12, damages the ozone layer like R-12, but has different thermodynamic properties to R-12, making it more suited to home air conditioning applications. HyChill makes a product (called Minus 50) which, by design, works (very well) in systems designed for R-22. Minus 50 has all the same benefits as Minus 30. However, conversion of these systems can have more issues than converting motor vehicle AC. I'll save you from the details and instead just state that one-off conversions of home AC systems are not really practical because they usually need to be assessed on a case by case basis. If your AC system is one of the newer ones then it will be using other f-gases (such as R-407c or R-410a, which are still massively globally warming but are not ozone depleting like R-22), and HyChill doesn't currently have an alternative for these gases. HyChill isn't really interested in developing an alternative gas for these either, because it's actually easier for AC manufacturers to just take their older R-22 designs (which are cheaper and simpler anyway) and change them to HyChill hydrocarbon refrigerants. This topic you raise goes into areas that the general public have very little awareness of. Most people think 'CFC free' labels on their fridges or AC systems mean that their fridge or AC uses an environmentally harmless gas, but this is simply not true. Most of the fridges and AC systems sold in Australia use these 'poor cousin' f-gases and although they may not damage the ozone layer, they are massively globally warming. It's really quite clever deceptive marketing. Most people don't know it, but these 'newer' f-gases aren't recently developed at all. They (or their components - some are mixtures) have been around for ages, but they've never been widely used or promoted because they simply aren't as good (in performance and safety terms) as the likes of R-12 and R-22. The were only promoted when the f-gas industry was told by governments that R-12 and R-22 must be phased out due to ozone depletion, and so they went back to their chemical playbook and dragged out these poorer cousins (like R-134a, R-407c, R-410a) and singing their praises while spreading FUD about natural refrigerants along the way. Now (finally) there are already moves afoot to phase out or ban completely R-134a and others because they are massively global warming. If only the AC industry hadn't been so entrenched in the f-gas industry, the world could have avoided this whole generation of 'poor cousin' f-gases altogether and switched to natural refrigerants, which are a permanent solution that will never be phased out. A better approach for tackling the problem of home air conditioning and fridges is to make sure your next purchase is an 'f-gas free' product. Read the data plate on the product. If it uses R-134a, R-410a, R-407c, R-22 or any other f-gas (any gas with 'fluorine' in it's chemical structure), avoid it. Ask for a product based on a natural refrigerant. If they stare blankly back at you, direct them to contact us at HyChill and we'll set them straight. The majority of the world's domestic fridge sales are now hydrocarbon (HC) refrigerant based (HyChill refrigerants are HC's), although you wouldn't know it here in Australia - the f-gas industry has done a good job of keeping HC fridges off the showroom floors in Aus... but you can get them. Top brands like Miele and others make HC fridges. Big W and Aldi stock cheaper brands of HC fridges also, if I remember correctly. DeLonghi makes a HC-based split system home AC unit, and I believe there are a few others. HyChill hopes to be making some big announcements about Aussie designed 'f-gas free' domestic and commercial AC systems very soon. Awareness is still growing for these f-gas free alternatives. But in time the awareness of their environmental credentials and energy efficiency will overcome the momentum of the f-gas dinosaur. I hope the readers of this topic find this information helpful. Cheers John Clark Technical Advisor HyChill

Hi GTTR34, Your R34 will most certainly have been fitted with R-134a aircon gas at time of manufacture. HyChill's Minus 30 (formally called HR12) should give you superior results for all the reasons I've already mentioned in other posts. The costs vary depending on whether or not you just need a simple regas or whether or not there is a more serious fault causing the drop in cooling performance that you are presumably experiencing, but it typically starts at around $50 - $80. But do read my other posts regarding the recommended additional steps to get your HyChill based AC system running optimally and with the longest possible lifespan. Cheers John