Sciby

the 'power out' of a problem is the same as trusting AWD to save your arse when you do stupid things... I agree, Predator, speed restrictions are really an honour system (unless you're caught)... but at least they can be punished if they do silly stuff. fyi, there's no speed restrictions in qld, sorry, I meant to say 'but a friend of mine in NSW', whoops.

Not a dead argument at all... of course none of us *need* a fast car, the only logical reason is that we want it. However, an experienced driver is far more likely to be able to handle driving a fast car much more than say an 18 year old on the first year of their P's, regardless of what the 18 year old's ego believes he can do.

I know, I was just trying to tiredly yank your chain. Yeah, you're dead (npi) right: there'll always be that element who go "Fark you, I'll do whatever the hell I want. But if there were restrictions in place, there would be fewer instances of it. Not all the knobs continue being so when faced with the consequences. Again, yeah, she's in that group that will do whatever the hell she pleases until she kills herself or someone else... and even then, she may try to mentally justify it. People like that can only learn the hard way. Thankfully they're the exception rather than the rule. I'm a qld'er but a friend of mine is just coming off his P's, the only time the speed restrictions really gave him grief was when he drive to and from Brisbane... being stuck on 90 or whatever was a bit of a pain.

This is a really stupid question, but does anyone know if R32 shocks would fit an R33? I'm definitely interested though.

d0p3y, a speed cut defender or an AM ecu or a cut wire generally isn't visible from the outside.

Heh, I wouldn't worry, look at the length of my freakin' posts. I agree with you about the training, as you may have seen.

Well, I'll answer for myself here... Your ferrari's example is a bit extreme, but let's say you're a learner and the government adopts something similar to what I outlined before. As a learner, as long as the car isn't too powerful (ie, more than a family v8), you'll be fine. You *have* to have an open-licenced driver in with you, to help temper any rushes of blood you have... or at least, that's the idea. Even if you had a hoon older brother, hopefully his experience would help you learn. Since you'll probably be buying your own car (or at least wanting to) when you get your P's, you'll have plenty of time to plan for the fact that you'll have to have a lower powered car. It's a system that works for bike riders, for many years now, no reason why it can't work for cars. It's just helping to temper the younger/newer riders from mashing themselves. *scratches head* I don't think we've said anything about speed limiting? I certainly haven't, but while we're on the subject... I have no problem with people breaking the speed limit to reasonable levels... to which it always amazes me how new passenger cars have 200+kph speedos... I could cut the 53 wire on my Skyline, but I have utterly no need to go over 180. *shrug* Good question. I would say that they would be looking forward to the day that they get it, but thanks to advanced training, and a gradual step-up idea that I suggested before, it won't be a jump from a 1.3L excel to a 7L twin turbo V8 mustang or something. They'll have some experience and not just on slower cars, so while there would be some "I can't wait to be able to drive my Skyline!" I think there would be less silliness (well, maybe some), but certainly less accidents that could be attributed to a lack of experience in driving and in handling cars. Well, let's looking at smoking and drinking... ads for both have always suggested the fun times that follow or how cool you'll look... 'thrilling', from a certain point of view... they don't outline the lung cancer or the liver disease in the ads. My experience with both is that I get hangovers and I cough a lot, so I don't do much drinking and I don't smoke anymore. Er, being a little Orwellian here, aren't you? Ensuring that new drivers are prepared to be drivers and not just licence holders will not crush motoring as a hobby. In fact, I would suggest that we would see a generation of more prepared, responsible drivers that would be better able to deal with the more and more powerful standard cars that are coming out these days. Very good questions... I worry about the overconfidence thing, as I mentioned before. I think if you took a 20 year old guy, who owned say a 5L v8 c'dore (or something of a similar power) and gave him some advanced 'here's how to get out of trouble' training, he would probably feel overconfident and try silly stuff. Which I do find concerning. However, he *does* have the skills (I would hope) from the course, to get him out of said trouble... and perhaps do more follow-on courses (or have to do mandatory ones, if my suggestions were implimented). Okay, now we're deep in sociology territory here. We can't stop society progressing. Everyone wants bigger, faster, longer, higher, more, more, more... look at the average power figures of new cars now... a standard family Falcon has just as much power as a VT series 1 Clubsport. We can't stop it, but we can help prepare people to deal with it better and not kill themselves in the process. Er, a little bit of overkill there and the human rights groups would start an uprising. At the moment, what happens if you're naught in a car and you're caught? You lose money and you walk for a while. What if they made it a truly criminal offence where it affected your ability to gain employment or you had to do serious jail time? Also, ignorance isn't a legal defence. If you use that, they'll say it's your responsibility as an Australian citizen to know the law and your rights within it. Same as an ugly guy, in my opinion. I don't think so, not at all (although space flight would be neat). I have the same addiction that everyone else on these forums have... it's not the addiction to speed that's the problem, it's the unexpected sharp decellerations that causes the headaches (and decapitations), when something bad happens that you're not prepared for or knowledgable about dealing with. Everything I've said in this thread has not been about slowing people down permenantly. It's about easing new drivers into it, educating them properly, not just giving them a 30 question true/false quiz and 20 minutes in a car with a half-bored public servant who's ticking 'yes/no' boxes on a sheet.

Yup, it has, but considering the original subject of the thread, it begs rediscussion. Nope, I can't say that I haven't. Guilty as charged. However, that's not the topic in it's entirity. We're talking about whether it's wise or not for young, inexperienced L/P plater drivers to be able to drive powerful cars. A lot of people who did what you outlined in your example did it when they were young, scared themselves and then gained the wisdom not to push the car that hard or in that direction. Experience in the making. This does not mean they should go out and fling a car about in an effort to gain experience. There's a difference between gaining experience in due course and endangering themselves and others to prove themselves a good driver. Again, you haven't got quite all of the stick. We're not talking about stopping speeding or accidents. Like you said, it'll never happen. We're talking about reducing deaths, increasing safety and restricting an L/P's platers ability to do stupid things, until they've gained the experience they need. I doubt you're going to have something like your PC guiding your car any time soon. Windows, etc is inherantly unstable by dint of the mass of extra information and variables to make it as compatable as possible with varying types and brands of hardware and software. If you were to get a full blown computer in your car, it would be much closer to a console, where the hardware is static, and the software is carefully coded to the platform, without having to consider variable hardware environments.

Ben: Anything I say below is no offence to you, okay? Okay. The problem is that even though we may have some younger L/P drivers with powerful cars who *are* responsible, and only use the power sensibly, there are idiot L/P drivers out there who cause problems. Unfortunately, we don't have a sensible-o-meter yet, and like I stated before, training is an excellent idea, and will solve some of the inexperience issues, but it won't stop idiots who actively want to be idiots. A downside of training is that it may give inexperienced drivers a false sense of security. 'I did this course, therefore I can take this corner fast!' I do have to ask though, you're on your L's, when do you get a chance to use the Skyline? Do you have older friends that cruise with you? P platers I can understand having them, (even though I may not neccessarily think it's a wise choice of car), but learner drivers, I feel, should be in vehicles that are less likely to bite them in the arse. Again, it's not an attack, I'm just curious. I drove a Mazda 808 for my L's and P's. As for you having a fast car, you're like me. You got it because you want a fast car and you like it, etc... but do we *need* our cars? I'd say not at all. To follow that logically, L/P drivers don't need fast, powerful cars: they simply want them. Who can blame them? They're great, and give us a thrill when we're driving them. But is it safe for a 'baby driver' to be behind the wheel of a fast car? However, all things mechanical being equal, I'd feel much safer with a 25 year old driving a skyline than I would with a 17-18 year old driving the same car. No offence to the L/P platers out there, but it comes down to experience for me. Perhaps an answer is a combination of the three main suggestions... training, heavier penalities and power restrictions: A learner has to pass the written and driving test, and also have to attend an advanced driving course. Since a lot of learners get their experience with their parent's car (generally with the parents in the car), I don't think a capacity restriction is workable, although a power restriction would be. Obviously, the average 6 cyl Falcadore would be acceptable, although I'm not sure with V8's... look at what happened to that family in Vic recently, with the L driver fishtailing the Clubbie down the road. I dunno. I'd say no, to be on the safe side. Penalties... if they're caught being really stupid or say 20 over the limit, L's are suspended for 6 months, have to reapply and restart the process. P's... for the first year, they're power/capacity restricted, along with the speed rescriptions that NSW has. Heavier punishments in line with the L's, along with more advanced training at the end of the first year. They pass the advanced training, they're allowed a jump in power/capacity (say, to include V6/straight six cars), less harsh punishments (but still harsher than opens to keep them motivated to be sensible)... I'm not sure about the third year... maybe nothing, except for a final driving/written test rather than just rolling into their opens like what happened to me. I can probably remember only half of my written test. Suggestions? Ideas? I think there's room to allow L's and P's to enjoy driving (without being stupid), yet keep themselves and others around them safe. Something just mentioned to me by a co-worker: driving is a priviledge, not a right, as far too many people around our city assume.

I'll go one step further and say that I'd rather my kids drive *anything* that is safe and not powerful, rather than a WRX. They can buy a WRX when they've driven for 5 years and can handle it. Even then, I'd worry. Perhaps another good comparsion is what newborn P-platers would be able to afford to buy... around the $10k mark I would suggest... you could get a 5L Commodore/maybe a 32 GTS-T, VS a decent lazer or even a fairly late model second hand Excel. I don't know of any 'cool' and safe cars worth $10k, but I'm sure they're out there. Maybe an NA 32 or 33, 180sx/silvia, etc... Regardless of what car they get, I still think a capacity or a power/weight restriction *with* compulsory advanced driver training would increase safety, decrease needless 'Look at me!' deaths (ie, show off tricks that go wrong) and increase respect for young drivers because they're essentially forced to be responsible.

A situation where you buy 40 120y's, tape them together and make a SUPADATSUN! (Edit: Sorry, I'm at my second job now (supervisor at a research lab, yay, not), so I can't give long replies to any of the above. However, I do have time to give quick silly comments. )

Obakemono: Well, let's assume that both are in good running order, that the brakes are good, good tires, no rust and in general road worthy and road certified condition. Personally, I would give the L plater the 120Y, for these reasons: - If they have an accident, it'll be cheaper to repair. - Cheaper to buy, cheaper to replace. - Running costs will be cheaper (no premium fuel required and less likelyhood of a right-foot-induced fuel leak. ), no need for $50 of high grade oil every 5k. - the 120y is a much more technologically simplier car, so more opportunity for them to learn how to service and repair it. (although it wouldn't be harder for them to learn how to service a car on the wrx, but would be much more difficult for them to wet their feet, metaphorically speaking, on repairing a Rex.) - The 120 would be light enough for them to have some fun, but not that much power that they can't get themselves into horrible, unrecoverable situations, unless they're doing something really silly at speed. I don't consider the AWD of the WRX to be as all-situation-saving as some Rex owners would have you believe. I know several ex-wrx owners that would state otherwise. - The 120 would be a better learning car, as it is RWD and relatively low-powered, if they got a bit of oversteer on a corner, it wouldn't be at a quickly-achieved high speed, so therefore it would be less likely to bite them bad. They'd be able to find the limits of the car and respect them. A WRX with AWD, while it would help them in certain situations, would bite back hard when limits are achieved. Let's face it, most young people (especially we guys) will push the limits of a car, especially such a sports car icon as a WRX. Take it too hard and fast around a corner on a drizzly night because they believe the AWD will save them every time and they're off into the trees. I've seen the results of that, and it was a 23 year old, not just a L/P plater. - Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to comment on the accident-worthiness of each vehicle. I'd give points to the 120y for being of oldschool steel construction, but points to the WRX for superior body design. On a side note, if it was my son, a small part of me would want him to have the WRX so he could at least pick up car-obsessed girls, but being my son, I know he'd have a bit of a deathwish at first, and I'd rather have him alive and a virgin than sexed up and dead. Right... now, reasons for giving me the WRX...

Sorry to hear about your cousin, bendertiger... the suggested punishment may be a little... unh... socially complex, although apparently the japanese practice of bukkake is from when an adulterous woman in a village was punished by the men of the village by ejaculating on her, but they weren't allowed to touch her. I think it was akin to "You want another man and his semen? Have all the semen in the world!!"

There's a world of difference between 20kph over the limit and 105 though... and I'm 11 years older, with 10+ years of driving experience. Which situation is less likely to end in tears?

Okay then, a free bump for your door chocks. Don't have to be a jerk when someone tries to give you some advice.

What?? How dare you!! *ahem* Hey, I fully admit that I shouldn't have sped... and as a result, I got caught, I rode my bike for 6 months, and now I'm very good... I still enjoy my car and the power, etc, but I'm far, far, far more aware of what speed I'm doing and where I am, etc. The times I *was* caught speeding though, I was comfortable, in control of the car and since I've done muchos highway driving for my job in the past, experienced enough (in my opinion) to travel at that speed on the highway. The law, however, disagreed.

Touche. However, as I stated, it was for accumulation of points on highway driving: 110, 120kph cruising, in 100 zones. Nothing, I feel, that was horribly unsafe or irresponsible. If I was passing at 160 or 170, then I'd just shut my damn mouth. This also underlines my point about training not being the only solution... I can be safe and responsible and have 10 years of experience, but it all means jack if I actively decide that I want to have some fun and leave my tires around the place in the form of melted rubber. If I didn't have a turbo, it would be much harder to be stupid.

And once again, we have L platers feeling that we're just dismissing them because they're young and/or inexperienced drivers. That's not entirely the case. I think it's safe to say that all older people (say 25 and older) have been inexperienced drivers at one time (some still are) who felt they were invincible and did stupid stuff (some still do). I know I did. But now I know better and I realise how stupid and dangerous some of my antics were. The reason behind the 'L/P platers with no turbo/big engine' comment/suggestion is to remove the temptation that a younger driver has. They're finally on the road, they've got the freedom to go wherever they want and do what they want, so it's tempting to have some fun at the same time. I did it, and I'm sure my kids will do it. (Not in my farkin' car though. ) When I was younger (17-22 or so), if I had the power under my right foot, I'd use it... I wouldn't say I'm a total nutter, but I still did stuff that I thought I was 100% capable of, that the car may not have been... granted, not all young people are stupid, they're not all hoons, etc, but how do you differentiate between the sensible and the stupid, in a fair and reasonable manner to ensure the safety of others on the roads whilst letting them drive whatever they want? I'm not sure it can be done... something has to give. Unfortunately, Obakemono, while I think you're right and better training is needed, training by itself can't stop someone from wanting to do stupid stuff. They can just do the right thing through the training and testing, and leave two black tracks on the road out of the testing centre. However, if you legally remove their ability to drive higher powered cars, it may remove some of the temptation. Sure, they'll still speed, but they won't be able to accelerate hard, to the point where they may either scare themselves or get the car into a situation that they may not be able to handle and rescue the situation. It would also reduce their ability to drag either cars, thus reducing another possible problem. A couple of years ago, NSW transport released figures that indicated that an 18 year old male on a 600cc motorbike had a 2% chance of living through a year. This percentage, of course, increased dramatically as the capacity went down, hence the 250cc maximum capacity. They can still enjoy riding bikes, they can still speed, etc, but the lack of huge acceleration removes that extra element that can get an inexperienced into deep poop. It all does beg the question though: why do L/P Platers need powerful cars? That's an actual question, not a challenge. Please, give answers from both sides of the fence. I can understand if some are tradies and need a ute with some pulling power, but would they need a V8? A V6, imho, would do the job. Aside from work concerns, I can't think of a single valid reason beyond the 'I have a fast car' aspect, and believe me, I've tried thinking of good valid reasons, I haven't just generalised or assumed anything here. So why do I have a fast car? Because I wanted one. I have no other reason to have one. It's not like I need to get to work faster. However, I've been driving for over ten years, so I feel I'm an experienced enough driver to safely and responsibly drive a Skyline (or similar). Even with this in mind, I've given myself a few 'Woah' moments, and I recently lost my licence (although that was due to highway driving mostly, not because of having a powerful engine). Anyway, opinions? Agree, disagree... it's an old subject, and most of these threads fall into just bickering... it'd be good to see solid debate and good suggestions, not just 'Farkin' young idiots!' or 'Farkin' older c0ckheads!' comments.

I personally think that a system similar to bike licences should be adopted... L's and P's are restricted to X capacity, no turbos, etc. Make it 2.5L so they can still get NA 33's.

Hate to say it GTTR34, but demand dictates price, not the seller... I think you might have the nissan door stops for a while.

Interested.

Sorry, don't have any pics of them, and I can't take them out of the car... because I need them to get home. http://www.pedders.com.au/catalogue.asp?prod=TBG That's Pedders' site on them. I crawled under the car on wednesday just to confirm it's them up front and the KYB's up the back. I'll let you know what I decide to do with them. Good to know that people are interested, at the very least.

I'm not 100% sure how much they cost me in the first place, but probably around 75% of that... I *think* they cost me $250 or a bit more, so maybe $200... if I decided to split it all up. Would prefer to keep them as spring sets. The other problem I have is that if I sell you my front dampers, I have a very strangely suspended car.

Hi guys, About 9 months ago, my stock suspension decided it had enough, and I went to the local Pedders to explore options. They made an offer of fitting various combinations of parts to the car, I test it, and then when we're happy with a set, that becomes the set they sell to local R33's, and I get decent suspension that I've been able to chop and change before settling. Unfortunately, I then lost my licence. Now that I'm back on the road, too much time has elapsed for me to take the current suspension back, which is fair enough, but I'm not *quite* happy with the setup. At the moment, it's got a set of Pedders Sports Ryder springs all round, with KYB shocks on the back and Pedders Touring Black shocks on the front. All the shocks are variable rate, meaning that for gentle movement, it's forgiving, but when pushed (ie, loading up the outside shocks in a hard corner), they harden up. The springs have lowered the car by about 30mm. It was sitting next to a mate's stocker 33 the other day, I was rather surprised by the difference. It's not too low though, which would destroy handling. It's definitely not a bad setup, far, far better than the stockers, especially on the crappy roads in rocky, and is beautiful and smooth on the highway. It can be fairly sporty, and combind with my whiteline handling kit, there's hardly any body roll around fast corners, but it's not *quite* what I'm looking for. Basically, I'm after expressions of interest in taking these coilovers off my hands, bearing in mind that it would have to be after I've replaced them with something else. They've done less than 3,000kms, easily, and while I've tested them vigorously, they've never been bashed hard or hurt, and they could be considered 90% new. I paid $1200 (ex labour) so obviously the final sale price would be somewhat less than that. If you're looking for 'way better than stock, but not as vicious as jap aftermarket' suspension, post a reply or pm, and we can see what we can work out.

You'll have to have it up to unbolt the lower mechanism, then the glass will slide down of it's on weight... might want to ask someone to hold it for you until you're ready... then let it slide down, wiggle off the bar that attaches to the glass, collapse the whole thing and slide it out the hole. My thumb is not famous, it just has many friends. And yeah, it's roughly the same to put back in as taking out. Probably easier, because you know where it all goes.