J_Red33

I think you underestimate how important good intercooling is & how hot a turbocharger can get. Consider this; if the exhaust housing gets to temperatures of several hundred degrees & the intake compressor is bolted right next to it, it's gonna have to get somewhat hotter. So by the time the second run begins with next to no opportunity to cool back down again the intake temps are much higher. Torque was the biggest tell tale when looking at the dyno graph, as it dropped off slowly throughout the rev range due to the increase in heat. If you look at dyno graphs 33's with a front mount fitted the torque is almost dead flat until something like 5-6 thousand revs. The R33 I think you will find is also a lot more prone to power loss after being loaded for even a short period, once an exhaust system is fitted while maintaining the stock intercooler. What proves this more than anything is the fact that before I had my exhaust system fitted, my intake plenum would be hot as buggery (at least 60 degrees, I know this because it hurt to touch it for much more than a few seconds), all the time whether or not I'd be driving it hard didn't matter. Once I had the exhaust fitted, the plenum was noticably a lot cooler, after steady driving (luke warm, about 25 -30 degrees roughly), but could be a fair bit hotter if I'd just been sinking the right foot a bit. This meant that the new exhaust is more effective at sending the heat out the back rather than making it build up excessively at the turbo, & therefore bringing the intake temperature down more than just a few degrees. However when put under heavy load, no exhaust system is going to get rid of all the heat, so the turbo then starts to heat right up again, bringing intake temps back up with it. Apologies for highjacking this debate into another big intercooler arguement (although related to the issue). I hope you get some usefull information out of it all for what you are trying to achive. Some very valid points here. However if you want to make the bottom end as responsive as possible relative to the top end, you want the same amount of boost throughout the rev range. To achieve the 200KW that illusive I believe would at least like, I would think that 10 psi would be the bare minimum requirement. Personally I found that with a set boost of 10 psi the car doesn't really start to pull real hard until 2500 rpm where it can achieve maximum boost & the time it takes to spool up the turbo if you lift off the throttle at anything below about 3500 revs can be over a second still (Edit: tested this today, about a second at 2500 & half a second at 3500 from when I plant my foot). The time it takes to go from low to full boost is basically what lag is as the engine is not giving optimum performance until it hits max boost (unless the max is too high of course), it's just at lower rpm there is a lot more of it. Going from vacuum to atmospheric pressure takes barely any time. For me it will be interesting to see what the response is like once I go to a much larger intercooler. Admittedly I had considered an R34 SMIC because it was a cheap & easy alternative stop gap, but it's not capable of the power I eventually want to achive & value for money was questionable.

Yes well I'm a southerner too which explains why I keep seeing you . Figured it would be a bit further for us, probably about 2 & a half hours for us roughly. I think one of the main points of this though it that it should be an enjoybale drive to get to the destination & then coming back too rather than just a boring highway trip. Personally I've never been over to the Yorke peninsula so I wouldn't know what the roads are like.

Ok good to see we're talking on the same plane here . Now this is where it starts to get really complicated, this is my understanding of higher flowing frontmount can improve response/reduce lag: Lets look at the intake side of things first, with a front mount in comparison to the standard side mount you will have cooler intake tempuratures, better flow & less pressure drop but more air volume to pressurise. Now when you first put your foot down, the charge of air that is in the intake gets sucked into the engine. The cooler the air that gets sucked in, the more of it there is, the more fuel the engine management will feed it to create a bigger bang & therefore more power. So straight away from here the car with the better cooling frontmount is off to a good start. The next step, when the engine then pumps out the burnt mixture it now has more exhaust gas to drive the turbo which then in turn spins harder to increase flow to the intercooler & the rest of the intake & therefore pressurising the larger frontmount intercooler just as fast, if not faster than it would the standard side mount. The turbo will also not have to work as hard to get to the set intake pressure (this is provided the boost level has been adjusted to compensate for the lower pressure drop across the frontmount, otherwise it will boost higher) & can therefore also reach the same boost level earlier because of this. That the theory as I understand it & what I believe is happening with the cars of others I know. Practcally these differances may be greater or less from once specific set up to another. Yes I was quite aware of this. The main point I was making was that you can improve the performance of the stock cooler greatly by doing this mod, probably more so than any frontmount due to the small surface area it has to be cooled & the fact the guard makes it a lot harder for the air to flow. Higher airflow = better cooling no arguement there. Personally I'll just be waiting till I have the money for a good quality frontmount & saving my guard. I'm really fussy with the appearance of my baby No need for a thermocouple just do a couple runs on the dyno & watch that power drop like a bomb. Reacently went to a dyno day here in SA with my 33 a lot of other skylines. Other 33's that ran with less than a full 3-inch exhaust & stock cooler ran consistent, but much lower figures in about the low 150's. When mine was put on with the full 3-inch system & stock side mount it ran 177KW on the first & then 170KW on the second successive run. So after 1 run & only about 15 to 20 seconds of hard acceleration I'd dropped 7 kw, which going by the formula you gave is an intake temp increase of about 28 degrees! Every other 33 that went on there with a front mount ran much more consistent figures that barely dropped any more than 2KW & sometimes gained a little. All had higher power outputs too. However this is a 33 side mount not a 34, but still I can't see it cooling working that much better for the increase in core thickness. It can still only suck in just as much cooling air, which means you need reasonable speed for it to start having a significantly improved cooling effect.

Closer than I thought then, not so bad. I thought the way the other guys were talking it was at least 3 hours out from town.

Yeah that is probably true when it comes to Victor, there are other caravan parks down that way we could go to. Could make it Normanville or Goolwa or even Rapid Bay. Will call the victor caravan parks though before rulling this out, but need a better idea of numbers first. Thinking he may be referring to more than just crashes mate. Break downs & stuff would also be on the cards for that long a trip. I'd also suggest if we were going to go as far as Stansbury the car's being used are running reliably, & that people should try & bring tools & spare parts just in case. Somewhere like Victor it's not so hard too go & get something if you really need it.

Also try Petro-Ject SA they sell a lot of Bosch parts to the trade (fuel injectors, coils, pumps exchange factory ecu's etc), see what they can do for you. They may even be able to give you a cheaper alternative. 910 external pumps that VL's use are a fair bit cheaper from memory but flow nearly just as much fuel. Think you'll probably be pushing you know what up hill to get an 040 for $200 though, especially if you want it right now. Edit: Just looked in my Bosch book 910 flows 130 litres/minute at 5 bar 040 flows 102 litres/minute at 6.5 bar I don't know why they don't give the ratings at the same pressure. Flow being inversely proportional to pressure if you ran the 040 at 5 bar instead of 6.5 it would flow about the same as the 910.

Haha talked yourself in then out of it. I'll just ignore that post then

Was a good turn out thanks to Patrick on sunday. Excellent organisation mate. Was also good to meet a few of the guys at 4dirty2's place, thanks for puttin' on the BBQ mate.

Hello everyone, Thought I should post this idea up since it was talked about between a few of us on sunday that we should do a cruise & camp to Victor Harbor & several people want to do a cruise that way. Since it looks like there's going to be a bit on in December & too many peoples books are full it looks like the idea time to do a cruise & camp would be some time in January while it's nice & warm. People that can't stay could also organise subseqent cruises back out on saturday afternoon & another group coming back in on sunday to meet up with us. This is just an idea at the moment, but the sooner the ball is rolling the more I'm sure would be able to come. Please post up your interest & any suggestions. Cheers, Jared Date: unknown (January is unfortunantely a no go as almost all accomodation being booked out due mostly to being summer & school holidays, Thanks to Andrew for doing the hard yards on the phone) Camp location: Unknown Suggestions of alternate locations: Stansbury Manuum Goolwa Normanville People interested so far: Cubes mr_rbman 4dirty2 Race_24 Madaz johnn kralster pokie TuffR32 Bl4cK32 Oosh R32Abuser Whiplash ukai? dangerman4? chops? Nightcrawler sinistagtst -SKYLINE-? Adz2332 paullys 32 Me

Yes this is totally true that the air flow for the sidemount R34 cooler is not as efficient as it could be, & something I didn't take into account. Even with the venting on the mud guard it will not flow air anywhere near as well as if it had just a hole for the air to flow out. All just a matter of if you want to hack up/remove your guard. The biggest draw back with this set up is that the cooler is then exposed to any crap that your wheel flings up & over like stones etc. 1.5 PSI drop at 1.3 bar isn't too bad, though I think you'll find that the pressure drop with a deacent & not overly large aftermarket front mount to be even less than the GT-R one too. Also were both the R34 GT-T & R32 GT-R running the same boost for the same power figures? I'll see if I can find the thread, sounds like an interesting read. The other alternative to help reduce the air volume with a front mount is to reduce the piping length by going to a front facing plenum, which probably saves something like 3/4 of a metre of piping & therefore reduced volume. With piping like the PlazmaMan setup on the stock plenum however, it would be less than 3/4 of a metre difference, very nice kit. I should also point out that the guy's I know that have put front mounts on their cars have all generally used more premium level high quality set ups (no I'm not rich & neither are they) which may be a sign that they are better designed for the job & more efficient. This is one reason I certainly won't be skimping with a cheap kit. What you've said about reponse has always been what I understood to be lag, the delay between when you plant your foot to when the turbo is on the maximum possible boost for a given rpm as lag literally means to go slow. What you've also said about it taking longer to boost up under the scenario you described is also the complete opposite to what I've previously heard, which for me is surprising. What kind of kit do you have on your own ride out of curiousity?

This seems to be a common misconception. A larger core is not more restrictive, it is in fact less restrictive. If you have a core that is wider & has more rows to flow air through this is a reduction of restriction meaning more air can flow through for more power, this is why a standard R33 intercooler is only good for roughly 200kw as it simply can not flow enough air let alone the fact that that air is really hot due to the core size. To keep power down on world rally cars they install a mandatory restrictor (of set diameter) which allows only a certain level of power. If you can't get the air flow you won't make the KW as more power requires more oxygen to burn more fuel. It's also why there's less pressure drop across a deacent front mount as a greater difference in pressure equals a greater restriction. Hope that makes it a bit clearer It sounds like you live somewhere very hilly for the economy to drop noticeably. This all works on Newtons law of Inertia which is roughly quoted as 'a mass or object that is travelling at a given velocity, will tend to stay at that velocity' The larger that the mass is the more inertia it has regardless of whether or not it is moving. Because the car with the heavier flywheel has more intertia it is harder for it to slow down than the car with the lightened flywheel & the same also applys for acceleration. Take note that the same will apply with a carbon driveshaft, so the car is more susceptable to speed loss between shifts due to the driveshaft not resisting reduction in speed due to air resistance & friction on the road. The main thing that would be hurting you is that you are having to put the foot in more up hill to maintain you speed, while when going down hill you don't gain it back due to the fact that you have to maintain your speed down hill braking rather than being able to go faster due to gravity. If you were able to go flat out up & down a set of hills you would still use the same amount of petrol, but practically this almost never happens. Rather than just saying you loose response, could you please clarify how you could loose response from something that allows higher air flow? I'm totally confused, what kind of response are you referring to if it's not a reduction in lag? Just for the record too, one of my friends that made such a comment about the response improvement with his front mount drives an R34.

I'm about to have my car repaired at M&C Doyle in the next few weeks pleanty of guys recommended them. Do a search for crash repairers on here & check out this thead: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...96&hl=Doyle

Well the photo shoot turned out good after all you impatient buggers took off home. Got 21 cars all in a big arc. Will post up some pics once I've defaced them of plate numbers.

I was looking at the bush kit a while back for my 33 from SK (I still need to get them) & he told me when I enquired that most of the bushes are a press fit. You need a 10,000 pound press to be able to get the old bushes out & the new ones in so not really a back yard job unless you know someone with 1 of these.

Yes the Tesla car looks like it could be a lot of fun, however there is one fundamental problem I have with it that people always seem to forget..... Yeah for sure the car itself doesn't put out any emissions, but what about it's power source?? Unless you are using a solar or wind generator you are going to be burning fossil fuels every time you have to charge the sucker up. The idea itself is a good one but without green power production it's effectively usless IMO. Plus who has another car that they use if they all of a sudden have to travel more than 400km the next day that they can otherwise afford to have lying around doing nothing? This is where the Hydrogen system becomes interesting, as when they can sought out the tank storage system (which no doubt with more reseach they will) & reduce the cost of producing the hydrogen (which with increasing production levels & more efficient systems will happen) it then becomes highly viable. BMW's spent truckloads of money researching this system almost completely all by themselves & I can't see them doing it all for nothing.

No probs mate, anytime

I'll be turning up tomorrow too & maybe going for the photoshoot. Glad I didn't drive all the way from down south for the stuff out to Mallala, doesn't sound like it was worth it. Enjoyed my sleep in

This is turning into a rather interesting thread, though I have to say from reading so far that I'd have to agree largely with Roy on his idea's on how to get the response levels up. Carbonfibre tailshafts are something you do when all the fundamental stuff has already been covered & you have money to burn. You will get a lot more for your 2k spending it on other parts like the flywheel & powerfc. Also I'd have to say that not enough emphasis has been put on changing the intercooler, everyone I know that has put a front mount on their car has noticed a massive increase in response. The stock 33's intercooler is very restrictive & from the many threads I've read is only good for about 200KW anyway. By changing to a larger aftermarket cooler the engine will get a cooler air charge & it will also be there a lot faster. Engines have to breathe just like humans do, have you ever tried running around the block with your nose pegged & a straw stuck in your mouth to breathe through? You'll find you can't go as fast because of the restriction of air that you can breathe.

Yeah you don't appreciate how much wider they are until you actually see the car, type M skirts you can get away with the stock wheels, the GT-R style ones though make the car look more like a hovercraft. It does make it more awkward to get in & out of, but a small price to pay . Thanks for the picture, the GRacer ones I'm looking actually hang a bit lower while still blending in, which I think is just nice. Confirms that the Type M pods are still a fairly high style pod. Still would like to see a couple of GT-R pods before I make my decision though. Edit: Saw a really good pair of GT-R style pods on a 33 last night & took a few photos so pictures are no longer required. Cheers

R33 manual diff ratio is also 4.111 & more than short enough. If you make the engine more responsive from the bottom end, you will definantely not want shorter gearing than a 33 already has. 1st gear is only good for 60 & second for 100 & cruising at 100 in fifth still has it reving at over 3 grand. I've always thought if I can't find a six speed to suit my 33 I'll be trying for a taller diff as first is just so short that the stock engine can't spin up fast enough & it revs too high when cruising. If you shortened the gearing that would only make it worse, not to mention fuel economy also goind down the drain. You would also loose time in having to do more shifts to get to the same speed, not worth it IMO. Do all the other engine mods & it'll pull like a train in any gear anyway.

I haven't got a PM yet, so I'd appreciate one thanks

First post updated, would appreciate people having a read if they think they can help.

It's a BBQ this friday at 4dirty2's place. If you wanna come & need a lift let me know, you're not that far away from me if I remember rightly.

PM sent, looks pretty easy

Not meaning to offend, but if you can find a mountain bike frame this thin, I'll show you the bin it belongs in: Just out of curiousity, do you happen to know how big a speed gain there was in going to the groved tyres? I'm not trying to say that the surface area has no effect at all don't get me wrong, but I did find that going just from chunky to slick style tyres on my mountain bike made a major difference & it does have thicker tubing than my roadie, the bearings are also bigger in the mountain bike, the road bikes are tiny. Yeah it's probably still a good idea if it's never been done, mine didn't really become problematic from a driving perspective until it was completely dead, car still ran perfectly.