hypergear
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Rb25 Turbo Upgrade, All Dyno Results
hypergear replied to Nacho Vidal's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
ATR43SS-1 450HP profile with high pressure actuator: 800cc injectors Nistune ECU Z32 AFM 600x300x75mm FMIC 3inch turbo back exhaust 3inch intake pipe with pod. CP pistons Stock engine head Stock cams Stock cam gears Stock exhaust manifold Stock inlet manifold Stock fuel rail Stock engine block, Con rod & Crank. BP 98 Fuel, No boost controller, No wastegate controller 257rwkws @ 18psi. Run below is based on 9 sec ramp timing: With a manual boost controller set to 24 psi maxing the turbo, 265rwkws @ 20psi. Run below is based on 9 sec ramp timing: -
This update is for the current ATR43SS with FNT turbine, which we will refer that to ATR43SS-1, and the other one made 320rwkws we will refer that to ATR43SS-2 This is first run high pressure actuator only wastegate controller off. I think this actuator is abit too stiff for this turbo, but thats all I had for the day. They will be equipt them with a 14psi or 7psi actuator. Run below is based on 9 sec ramp timing. Now with a manual boost controller set to 24 psi maxing out the turbo. Run below is based on 9 sec ramp timing.
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Stock oil feeding line has 2x restrictors so it shouldn't flood the turbo unless there is a drain issue, over filled engine or high crank case pressure (check breathers). Have a feel of the turbo shaft for movement and shaft play.
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This is a short 9sec run based on a .82 rear FNT turbine housing ATR43G3 with .70 comp internally gated on 98 Fuel with little miss fire. in comparison with a standard .82 ATR43 based on the same ramp speed. Note how the FNT made more torque down low, held torque longer up on top and held boost lot better. Above only captured engine behavior in 4th gear paddle to the floor. Big improvement in road driving ability, boost comes in lot earlier in lower gears, lot faster off the lights or 0 to 100KMs acceleration. Most important, this nothing then massive pull tyre spinning every where behavior has been replaced by very solid and smooth acceleration with almost none wheel spin specially in 2nd gear. Very strong increasement of Gforce as RPMs engage red line. Overall a lot faster road car. I’ve got few more drawings of FNT turbine setups, will try them out in later stages. Next to come is the an smaller version of SS that is made for 250rwkws, and hopefully the new parts replaced (CAS, Ignition model, one coil pack) stops this miss-firing issue.
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it appears to be: .63 VL turbo's turbine housing with a R32's comp housing, bush bearing setup Standard VL turbo turbine wheel or TB34 turbine wheel with a 8~12 degrees crop running a 56T 71mm comp wheel. It should be ok for about 250~260rwkws on Rb25det with average response using a strong actuator. Need a none restrictive oil line for Rb2x engines. You will need his dump pipe as the internal gate part is in it.
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There could be more tails, I'm only referring to Status dyno with 98 Fuel. Also high ramp also makes exhaust side hotter, which means large famed turbos will show affect of been advanced, also not sure of effects of E85 fuel. Note 12 sec run vs 9 sec run based on a KAI R33 2iU high fow, its showing same trace: Don't know what those corrections are maybe Trent can add in some input. How ever the SAE labled dynosheet above produced more power then STP, probably other way round. Dyno tune didn't go very smooth today. car's ended up with ignition issues after few runs. need to sort out its issues and do another try.
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Its more of a customized turbine housing that I've designed and made to suit my own turbos at this stage.
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means there are 3x nozzles redirecting air to the most effective spot of turbine blade for optimum shaft speed.
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This is for people who's asking to see the fuel and timing map for ATR43SS-2 Billet FNT turbo. (hope I got the nistune software to read correctly) Timing map: Fuel map:
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The additional funds were paid into labor and materials in manufacturing, its not cheap when every thing is made in Australia with qualified engineers. Plus the turbo it self is engineered to be a bolton solution, so even been $1900 you are saving lot more then $300 at the stage of when its running. Only way I can see it been cheaper is to send out all of our machinery work overseas, its a hard ethical decision I'm tempted but not yet welling to make. Cheaper solutions will be announced when available.
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For the 1JZ member: Rear adapting pattern of the ATR43xx can be made into a Vband internally gated or 5 bolts pattern for external gate. Today I've removed the ATR43SS and replaced it with a ATR43G3 with .70 comp and .82 FNT tri-nozzled rear. Haven't had it tuned, driving around gently, it seems like it comes to 0psi on 2nd gear by 2500RPMS and pulled hard to red line. If I call the stage of where the turbo comes on "song" (that spool sound before gone into jet sound just before 0psi), then this turbo seems to be on song as soon as accelerator is pressed, very good response and very conformable to drive on road with lot of useable power and torque band. With larger housings its really torquey and smooth, I think this is another brilliant road turbo. comparing to the current ATR43g3 .82 .70, The FNT version picked up lot more mid range with far better response, I will find out if its going to affect top end or not on Tuesday. In comparing to the SS I’ve just removed, the SS produced a lot sharper sort of acceleration, while The G3 with FNT more felt like power increase due to increasement of engine cubic size. Price wise the RB25det Bolton SS with billet comp and FNT turbine, I will need to charge $1900 including GST, oil line and high pressure actuator to cover up all the extra labor spent in manufacturing. The Vband version is $150 cheaper. The Standard ATR43G3 with FNT cost additional $200. Once dyno confirmed, any one with a standard .82 ATR43Gx / PU high flow can send theirs in for FNT integration at $200.
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I've made a 3 nozzled ATR43G3 .82 turbo, installing it tomorrow. By re-directing air to a more efficient spot improves the current response and driving ability, in combination with large size housing it should produce possibly better power with greater torque. If works it can change the current ATR43 .82 and PU high flow's power and boost behavior, making a powerful car lot more street friendly. Installing it tomorrow, will write up some DIY instructions.
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^^^ Above is off a KAI high flow based on a OP6 rear. Its probably due to wheel spin or dyno ramp its not as responsive as the SS with FNT technology. You probably would refer it to: except it would be maxing out around 300rwkws mark using stock comp housing. Car's had engine head issues during that dyno run. so the torque curve looked abit funny.
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That appears to be 2860RS spec turbo in side factory housing. We can also carry out that high flow. Most RB25det people are chasing more towards 270rwkws mark, its not a common profile but Can be done.
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I have seen few burnt turbine wheels and many shattered bearings. Most of shattered bearing cartridges came from Ford XR6, Burnt wheels are generally from high flows, few GT30 and GT28. They are too thin, only made with 20 thou of materials. I casted mine in 30 thou, and I’ve never seen one got burnt. Few of the later XR turbos blew due to clogged filters. People seems to forget about them or don't use them till a wasted turbo. I think the design isn't perfect, It’s a forced feeding system in a .7mm tube. Dirt are virtually trapped in it. My new drawing is based on slashed oil feeding system, which objects can be carried out with passing by oil. Work still in progress. Any by the way I have one more SS profile to test, that is aimed at 250rwkws with most response, will post result in few weeks time. The Standard high flow results are out dated, current ones will perform way better, results come in soon.
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For the 400awkws GTRs on 98 fuel, we can build 2x ATR28G2 in .64 rears with OEM pattern, they are equivalent to the -9s but would be pretty laggy for street application. Ball bearing or not doesn’t make much difference. I would build them for my own car but not confident enough yet in selling as a product. I get few failed bb turbos send in for overhaul every week, almost every single one had shattered bearings, counted as oil contamination issue, some of them are just few weeks old. Like I said earlier， pure clean oil doesn't exist when comes to any aged engines. Reliability is most important. But I'm doing few extra drawings based on the oil setup on the ceramic ball bearing project, I think there is a way that we can separate any objects within hot oil or at least not keeping any objects inside the bearing cartridge. I'll post it up here when ready.
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There are 2x major updates with the SS model. 1st: as mentioned customized blow nozzle. Allows re-direction of hot air to where its needed for the most shaft speed. I’ve done few drawings and models back in 09, except the building method was too expansive and time consuming to produce and sale. Few close customers have seen my older model, which is on held. This re-constructed model was very time efficient and cost effective to build, it worked as expected. Result was done with a single blow nozzle, I’ve also got a triple nozzle dawning which should be a great upgrade for the ATR43 G3 .82 turbine housing. (will be tested soon) 2nd: Comp wheel. Stronger materials, light weight, greater flow per-rotation. Not sure if you’ve noticed this SS turbo runs off a machined billet 71mm comp wheel, with stronger materials I’ve shaved out the center hub leaving greater air gaps and larger fins. It is equivalent to a 76mm in 56 Trim wheel with half of its weight. Back on the high flow agenda, Standard high flow profile has been updated many times through the past 3 years. Results from 09 do not represent 11. Current high flows run a different turbine and waste gating (affective with high pressure actuators) system producing more torque and greater power. I will do some runs with them to update the out dated results.
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Well you don't need a .82 rear for 230rwkws. Its more made for high torque 300rwkws applications, that would make a laggy 230rwkws on road. I think high flow based on stock R33 turbo would be your best option for a fast street driven 230rwkws. Also with the ramp rate, you won't really know it unless its been addressed. Few obvious tails I've noticed with the Dyno pack dyno that I've used: Notice the high lighted dip and flat bit, you will find that with 12 sec ramp timing on stock Rb25dets. I will do runs on both ramp speeds from now on.
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There are some results of a standard and KAI profile high flow for R33 stock turbo in page one. There has been few updates on the turbine side of it since. The current one should have no issues producing around 240rwkws with high pressure actuator, the driving ability is great on road.
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The ATR43SS appeared above would be the best option for that sort of HP. Or if you have a stock R33 or R34 turbo we can also high flow that to archive the same HP goal (250rwkws). The high pressure actuator is recommended as it can hold more boost up on top and excellent working with EBC or MBC.
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Don't really need externalgate on GT3071. You can run it with a strong actuator. How every ou can weld a screamer pipe on to the turbine housing, but be sure to check its face tolerance after welding as likely it would be distorted by heat.
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Yes I'm doing up some drawings on the custom blow nozzles for the current .82 rear housings. which should make a big difference to the current ATR43 and PU high flow's response. I should have that tested and ready in about 2 weeks, if all goes as planned we can carry out updates on customer's turbine housings. Also my tune was done based on 9 sec ramp timing. I also did a comparison run based on 12 sec ramp timing (in red) which many of the dyno section sheets are, longer ramp rate makes all data appear slightly advanced. This is set depending on tuners preferences. ps. in run below we were tried to add in more boost which didn't make any more power, so this turbo is fully maxed out at 320rwkws.
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More update for the SS profile: I've had that dyno tuned at status today (Big thanks for Trent's work). I've decided to use traditional sleeve bearing setup instead of ceramic ball bearings, as most people won't be paying that much for such a minior difference. Also I'm not very confident with the BB's "clean oil" theory when putting up with 20 years old engines. (of course I can't tell any one to bugger off and blame your engine oil as Garrett normally do). This is also the very first FNT experiment with one customized blow nozzle. Car Dynoed based on 9 sec ramp speed as always, not 12 or 13 secs for happy results. BP 98 Fuel, No boost controller, No wastegate controller 286rwkws @ 17psi. BP 98 Fuel, No boost controller, Wastegate controller wastegate controller set 320rwkws @ 20psi I'm very happy with this results, Its not only as what appeared on paper, its made an very fast street car. boost comes in nice and early, smooth acceleration, minium wheel spin, hard pull till red line.
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Rb25 Turbo Upgrade, All Dyno Results
hypergear replied to Nacho Vidal's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
ATR43SS with high pressure actuator: 800cc injectors Nistune ECU Z32 AFM 600x300x75mm FMIC 3inch turbo back exhaust 3inch intake pipe with pod. CP pistons Stock engine head Stock cams Stock cam gears Stock exhaust manifold Stock inlet manifold Stock fuel rail Stock engine block, Con rod & Crank. Dyno run abased on 9 sec Ramp timing: BP 98 Fuel, No boost controller, No wastegate controller 286rwkws @ 17psi. BP 98 Fuel, No boost controller, Wastegate controller wastegate controller set at 320rwkws @ 20psi Dyno run based on 12 sec Ramp timing with more boost maxing out the turbo, (red = 12sec, Green = 9 sec): Make sure you know the dyno's ramp speed when comparing results, or its point less. Tricks in pointing them out is in page 73 of our high flow thread. -
It looks like oil drainage issue caused from excessive crank case pressure, which forced out of the turbine seals along with few drops of oil.
