Full-Race Geoff

Im switching back to 8374 0.92 a/r now. We have a new shop track car to focus on, so my Nissan will go back to being a fun casual project. Considering your boost limits and fuel, I agree the 0.92 could work well. Just expect the turbo to run out of exhaust flow around 625-645whp as opposed to 700-730 with the external gates and 1.05 a/r compared to 8374, the 9180 came on song ~400-500rpm later. I can not verify fitment on other company's manifolds, but even on the older Full-Race RB manifolds the EFR will fit no problem. Just make sure its divided with dual wg for optimal performance. If a gt40R can fit it then EFRs can fit here is a dyno video from a couple years ago when my car had 8374 1.05 a/r on a dynapack with R33 trans and catalytic converter:

I run both 8374 and 9180 turbos on my 2.6L engine, the EFR8374 is my call for a street driven 2.6L rb26... 1 bar by 3400rpm and so much fun to drive. The 9180 is a bigger turbo, comes on later and hits much harder. Regardless of this, the WG config will depend on which fuel you are using and your boost targets.. for a street car the 0.92 makes a lot of sense. i prefer the IWG because it is so simple and lightweight, but externals do have their benefits also

EFR 9180 1.05 a/r is in stock, the 1.45 a/r starts shipping in 1-2 weeks.. making progress you can block the WG ports off or use a non-wastegated manifold. here is our RB26 IWG efr turbo manifold: the twin wastegates are the call for maximum performance. I hope you are happy with the setup! the smaller a/r will usually spool the turbo quicker.. as long as the wastegate doesnt crack open prematurely it wont affect spool. The solution is to use a stiff WG spring. turbosmart IWG has been popular lately becuase it uses the same springs as their EWG (up to 3) i believe BW made the turbos for that saturn skyy/pontiac solstice platform. as well as the cobalt. And the 2011-2012 EcoBoost F150, and 2012+ Focus ST EcoBoost, Fusion, etc.. audi and volvo they all used that style Compressor recirc valve. It works well indy teams now run twin EFR7163 only. there may be some used 9180s floating around, but keep in mind it was not in a ported shroud housing so actually the standard EFR9180 compressor housing will slightly outperform the indy 9180 - given the same turbine housing A/R

cobrAA -- the EFR IWG's have a large diameter wg flapper, and hence need stiffer spring than was originally called for. Turbosmart has their IWG lineup ready to go now and it uses the same springs as their EWG, so plenty of options there. I personally have had good results with the oem borgwarner 'stiff' actuator, but the turbosmart is a great option for boost levels above that i think the 7163 is a bit small for a high boost rb26, as it can be overspun. Same with 7670. however they both provide excellent spool and response so if you use a shaft speed sensor to keep things in check you could be very happy with either on an RB26 - just be prepared to taper the boost up top. The 8374 comes on strong around 3300-3400rpm - so it might be bigger than you like, but i really enjoy it on the RB26 (its one of my all time favorite turbo/engine combinations, so much fun to drive). I am putting the 8374 0.92 back on my RB26 in a couple weeks, after i put the 7163 on my evo Lith - i agree a 2.5L subaru EJ is comparable to a 2.5L nissan RB. one difference being subaru has longer length exhaust manifold, so those engines seem to be more affected by how hot the turbo/manifolds are at the start of dyno pull. here is a cold run (red line) vs 2 hot runs on that car (blue and green lines) Tonba - we've got (2) SR20 guys who recently picked up 7163s, if i get any results i will post here. scott kuhner @ Insight is a fan of the 7163/sr20 combination he tested some prototypes for me last year

vband, 0.85 a/r external WG

red line = EFR7163 (singlescroll) subaru EJ25, using E85 fuel green line = stock turbo E85 without turbo speed date, i assume this 7163 is operating close to overspeed and this is every bit of airflow it can muster. However for a low VE 2.5L motor like the subaru EJ25 to acheive this performance is impressive. The build spec is simple and straight forward: stock OEM block with just manley pistons and rods, along with some kelford cams, spearco TMIC Im planning to install a 7163 on my evo in the next couple of weeks, will be interesting to see what it puts out.

you may consider trying a 4port boost control solenoid and/or a stiffer WG spring. the optimal solution in my opinion (assuming your header is divided) would be dual WG's on a 4port... but thats more work and expense than you may want to get into. Working at a fabrication shop, I sometimes take changes like that for granted unlikely, the stock manis really only work with stock-footprint turbos. EFR twins will likely need to be top mounted in the RB engine bay. Between the PS pump, AC compressor, strut tower and hoses/lines there isnt much room to work with, considering we also want (2) intake tubes, (2) charge pipes and all the associated plumbing in order to do this, the EFR center section must be machined, to turn down the OD so it can fit into the R35 end housings. This requires disassembling the turbo and then rebalancing it (high speed core balance). Also, the R35's IHI housings are considerably bigger than the garrett T25/T25 housings so while I don't know for certain, i think this is a non starter

one more post before i get offline for the day -- here is a 2.5L subaru, comparing EFR7064 twinscroll (blue) to EFR7670 twinscroll (red) - turbo was the only change

for 3.0L and 600whp, the 8375 is too small - not gonna reach your power targets.. that 60mm inducer turbo maxxes around 530-540whp on a 3.0L engine. Instead, I recommend the 61.4mm FMW at the smallest (550-560whp max) and also the 64mm FMW would also be worthy of consideration for a 600+whp target on this size engine. The single large wastegate will not do this setup any benefit the recent tests I was referring to was done by Jeff Evans at evans-tuning.com -- one test was a 900whp B series drag honda, the other a 500hp SR20DET. i will email jeff and ask for the comparison charts for you. In my experience FR has produced subarus with twinscroll single gate, sr20 twinscroll's w/ single gate and B series honda twinscroll single gate. Only the SR20 remains an option for our twinscroll manifolds, because customers request it (all others were discontinued). From my first-hand experience, i would not run a single gate twinscroll on my personal projects. I used to run a twinscroll gt30R single WG config on my SR20 beater, but since sold the setup and will be installing a 6258 iwg. ^^^^agree the singlescroll EFR7163 is available in a 0.85 a/r (which is pretty large obviously) but im surprised at your conclusion that a 76mm compressor GT30 based turbo would edge it out... its a bit early to compare but that has much more inertia than the 7163. In fact the 63mm mixed flow turbine wheel has almost the same inertia as the 58mm radial flow turbine wheel.. yes, the 7064 does have much more exhaust flow capacity than the 7163 - so it can make more power and more boost in the higher RPM. However in terms of overall transient response and boost response that is tightly linked to throttle position, the 7163 will take the cake... particularly in the twinscroll 0.80 a/r housing if you want low gate pressure and the ability to hold high boost with an IWG - a 4port boost control solenoid controlling a sealed 2port vacuum actuated device could achieve that (Turbosmart tells me they are very close to having an IWG canister in this configuration for the EFR) as would an Electronic-actuator. Traditionally the easiest way is with an External-WG. I personally like to run the IWG's with as much spring as possible, since we have E85 readily available in Arizona. I acknowledge everyone wants something different so we are working on those setups also agreed Im surprised you feel that way, its still a 76mm compressor on a 60mm turbine.. for that reason the only gt30 based turbo im fond of is the gtx3071R. to each his own!

Ive got nothing to do with BW's intellectual property dept, but if youre truly interested you can find a good amount on google patent searches. Garrett has already been paying BW $32.5million in licensing fees for titanium wheels, so who knows maybe they would work something out in the future? this is purely conjecture as it's way outside my area of expertise: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20110516/honeywell-agrees-to-pay-borg-warner-325m-licensing-fees for a 2.0L RB20 targetting road racing and respnse - the 6758 or 7163 would be the perfect fit. the 7064 is a great turbo also and may be a direct fit, but 7163 is really an exceptional match for 2.0L displacement and easy to weld a flange or adaptor on the turbine housing. 7670 is too large for your application in my opinion ..as does mercedes, BMW, hyundai, kia, chevy/cadillac, dodge, mini cooper, audi, Ford, Peugeot, Renault... pretty much every automaker that wants zero turbo lag on small displacement turbo engines we've got all the EFR's in stock if youre interested to try one even the 7163's are in stock! i'd guesstimate the difference on a dyno to be 400-500rpm. In Real-world driving conditions, the difference can be even more drastic...

hi, the installation procedure will depend on whether you want to keep the OEM computer in place. Most racers will delete the OEM computer but some people want to retain it. Keeping it functioning allows your torque split gauge to move around, and keeps ABS happy. 1. the answer to this question depends on what i wrote above -- the G-sensor is required only to keep the oem computer functioning without codes 2. no problem, you should be all set 3. same answer as #1, if you will use the oem computer just tee off the TPS. if you dont care about the oem computer, cut the wire and intercept the signal i hope this helps

good start! I agree with you, on most RB installations, the stiffer WG spring is usually a good move. +1 depending on your setup, and considering that you have a mostly stock motor, the EFR7064 is worthy of consideration. Ive had a few subaru customers go from 7064 to 7670 and back to 7064 lately.. Like discopotato mentioned there may or may not be a benefit converting the stock manifold to twinscroll divided, but anytime you want to bolster the bottom end/midrange using the split pulse configuration does that quite well. the reason we do not use T3 flanged housings is due to the bolt-hole clearance. on a T3 you have to use a reasonably large indentation inside the volute (bolt hole nut clearance) and its also much more difficult to fit tools on the hardware this way. Also most fabricators/header builders will tell you that a T4 twinscroll collector has much better geometry than a T3 twinscroll the best wastegate is no wastegate.. what are you trying to accomplish that you want to use an external wastegate? In my experience the EFR iwg flows very very well. edit: there is such a thing as too much wastegate. We recently did some testing with 60mm WG's on two different engines/cars and the results were very disappointing... gave up a lot of powerband compared to the smaller gates we ran previously. both cars are going back to the previous config (dual 38mm-40mm)

well done on the initial matchbot setup, i like the boost taper and backpressure looks within on-point. where did you get those VE numbers from? my only comment would be to tweak the compressor efficiencies a little better according to the map plot. Both in the real world, and on matchbot - the extra 10% displacement to 2.2L makes a big difference for evo motors with aggressive spooling turbos. I run an 8374 on my 2.0L and while it is a lot of fun, i wish there was a little more displacement as it would spool even quicker and stay out of surge in the lower rpm. Since you want it to be a street car with ac and dont want to notch the gearbox, i really suggest that you consider EFR7670 1.05 a/r

gave up on attachments, link for PDF study: http://docdroid.net/c6j6

every turbo you've ever seen whether Garrett, Airwerks, Turbonetics, Precision, FP, MHI or chinese-ebay-turbo, they all have a friction welded 4340 steel shaft to a steel turbine, every single one. Except EFR. it is not possible to weld steel to Ti, so BorgWarner owns (9) method patents on how to attach steel shafts to titanium turbine wheels... they use one (the strongest). This is also why you are unlikely to see a titanium turbine from Garrett- since they'd likely be paying BW a royalty here there is no welding of any type used on an EFR turbine shaft Hi scotty, what follows below in the attachment is purely fact. We presented this to Ford, it is a result of a big-budget project we did with their CFD and engine performance teams - validating twinscroll for use in their ecoboost mustang performance engine. http://docdroid.net/c6j6 fully divided cylinder pairs allows exhaust pulses to have maximum kinetic energy. The net effect is the turbine wheel spins faster for a given exhaust pulse (higher turbine efficiency). it doesnt matter if its a FR manifold or a garrett turbo, when the shit is done right it works. If this is lost on you, let it go. If you disagree thats fine, Ill add you to my growing ignore list and you can do the same... but please stop posting bullshit misinformation here its lame and clogs this thread for anyone trying to decipher fact from fiction. Finding out facts before posting misinformation is a good practice to get into... Are you also concerned that your turbo's compressor wheel is held on the shaft with a nut? not one piece... lol you and me both... oh well!! i honestly couldnt care less at this point, since they are the one and only failure we've seen

tial vband garett turbo vs BW EFR B1 vband ewg: also - here is an RX7 that went from GTX40R to EFR9180, the EFR was slightly smaller and fit better.. Typically the change from singlescroll to twinscroll is best described as a 10-15% improvement in turbine efficiency at low engine speeds & the twinscroll may have 3-5% less top end compared to singlescroll, due to the increased wall friction found on the divider surface. ive run EFR's singlescroll and ive run them twinscroll, on the same engine. to say that there is no difference and the Ti wheel is all that matters would be selling yourself very short for twinscroll to work right, you need the right manifold, the right turbo and the right turbine housing. If the pieces arent there or the turbo is undersized you probably wont appreciate the benefit.. that is completely false on many levels. First of all, the shaft is 4340 steel - far from brittle. second the EFR turbos are over 13 times stronger in thrust handling than any journal bearing turbos. I say over 13 times because we dont know exactly, the lab equipment can not damage EFR turbos due to axial thrust loading, we simply could not generate enough axial force to damage the bearing or wheels. In all honesty I have not heard of any EFR damaged from missing BOV either... I think its stupid as hell, but I would not expect a shaft failure as they are not weak please stop posting misinformation. it is a disservice to the community and removes credibility from your statements No, an IAT/EGT are good data to have on hand, but will tell you very very little about where the turbo is operating. altitude, boost leaks, BOV faults, turbo sizing, so much great info can be easily extrapolated by simply knowing the max turbocharger shaft speed. For example an EFR8374 has a max speed of 128k rpm. here is the speed area where my car normally operates: after 14 months of driving like a maniac and barely any maintenance, i noticed the car was feeling sluggish one morning. I looked down and saw: https://www.facebook.com/FullRaceMotorsports/photos/a.10151959103532527.1073741828.157954962526/10152293546542527/?type=1 obviously it is spinning very fast to make this boost... there is a leak and i had to fix it. I knew this from the driver's seat in seconds, without stopping or pulling over/popping the hood. On the other end of the spectrum you can use turbospeed as an input to your standalone engine managment and use it to control a LOT of engine operation. AEM infinity has a good start on this and ProEFI also has some features in place. there was only (1) turbo failure in the last 1.5 years that I am aware of - an EFR9180 on a 2jz supra with massive boost leaks, trying to do full boost dyno runs. otherwise i dont know of any recent failures, thats saying a lot considering how many of these turbos Full-Race sells ^^i think you and I are talking about the same guy. it may have been a questionable turbo from the outset, i dont know. either way we warrantied it and have not had any issues since that time

agreed ^^ I spoke to him a few times real nice fellow. it sounds like he is very pleased with the EFR turbo and its powerband, he said it feels like an angry 8cylinder under the hood Evans-Tuning did a great back to back comparison test on a built evo: EFR9180 1.05 a/r (solid line) @42psi boost (dropping to 38psi) - vs - GT4088R 1.06 a/r (dotted line) @40psi (dropping to 34psi), exhaust is 3" -- the end result is well worth the effort. If you wanted to keep A/C, fitting the largest EFR's, with (2) external wastegates is not that big of a deal. either notch the trans OR remove the integrated-BOV OR remove the AC and run a non-AC manifold ..Yes you will have to run a tight radius downpipe to clear the oem AC compressor, but really -- if you have to keep A/C, you do not have a race car... I fully appreciate engineering the vehicle to an optimum state, but I think its most important to pick your battles and be reasonable... plus 4G63s are generally more resisitant to backpressure restriction than many other engines like honda vtec or rb26 i have a t4 divided EFR and AC on my evo street car (with EFR internal-WG). my gearbox is not notched and cold AC is in place. I am running 30+psi on E85 daily at 600whp and can honestly say that moving the turbo up 8" and extending the cold side charge pipe 7" makes no appreciable difference. Ive compared logs to many other 8374 evos and have seen no change in boost or spool.. In no way does a slightly longer 2.5" pipe negate the performance that an EFR turbo brings to the table... external wastegates or lowering the CG of my turbo would make >zero< difference on a street car and most unibody front engine track cars. I dont think it will hold back any WTAC competitors, let alone a street driven vehicle

here is another relevant Garrett vs EFR comparison (on an Evo) of these turbos "all in" with our twinscroll turbo kit. this customer is doing 1/2 mile rolling races, and wanted to use the same kit Sierra Sierra ran GT4088R 1.06 a/r (dotted line) @40psi (dropping to 34psi) EFR9180 1.05 a/r (solid line) @42psi boost (dropping to 38psi)

20 degrees is listed as max angle of tilt for most all turbo mfg's but i always keep it under 7 degrees on all the setups we do here and usually 0 degrees tonba -- tial is developing housings that are more compact for the EFR turbos. If you are interested in a compact version, let them know what youre looking for - they are asking for input during the design stage on what turbos to offer their versions of first

yes, ETS-Pro works perfectly for your type of application. what you're proposing is exactly what my personal car is - nissan S14 chassis, converted to GTR AWD using the ETS-Pro for torque split control. ditch all of the attesa crap/wiring (and the completely outdated "pendulum style" g-sensor). edit: depending on your skills and equipment available, you may want to take a look here at our setup to get ideas: http://www.full-race.com/store/r14-awd-skyline/r14-conversion-kit-skyline-gtr-rb26-awd-240sx-swap.html

tonba -- man up.. its not that hard to fit these in an evo, especially if you take the a/c out discopotato - more often than not, the location and bracket for the actuator is the difficult piece to fit- not the length of the turbo. Full-Race has a few different WG brackets to suit many different fitments, that is the real key to making these work, knowing where to position the actuator in each application

sorry, i did not receive it. please forward to me directly: [email protected]

Yes, very easy to keep ABS and still run this unit. Just install an 8ohm resistor across the old solenoid leads to keep your R32's oem system happy.

here is one of the first 7163 results for the EWG vband housings. its an R35 GTR with 4.1L engine built entirely by SubZero (FR just helped with the turbos). timeslip attached -- watch the launch

hey sorry if i missed it -- what crank and rods are they (stroke and rod length)? looks like youll use every bit of that compressor map!