Full-Race Geoff

yea lith - this EvoX is the daily driver for the owner of MooreTuning. He started with EFR7670 1.05 a/r and then switched to the EFR9180 1.05 a/r. Really nice guys, I met them in the BorgWarner booth at PRI and spoken a few times over the last 4 years. Typically they sell a lot of precision and FP turbos so he was interested in the EFR but like everyone else was a little skeptical. now he has a decent opinion on them, keeps calling it magical

hey brad - did you post this dyno chart in the thread? I just looked for it but could not find it. Would love to see the torque curve, with full boost at 3200

correct - XS Engineering shut down many years ago. However, Blackmarket Racing aka 'BMR' is located directly behind Full-Race... and they bought the dynamic testing dyno from XS. BMR had wanted to get it from XS for many years becuase it has some special features (such as extremely accurate measurement of drivetrain losses) however when we dynoed the evo i accidentally brought up the old template with the xs logo. edit: i know the chart says "engine" on the screen but I assure you this is whp. the point i was trying to make was that a turbo thats larger than gt35R is spooling like a gt30R... and making more than 35R power

on west-coast USA 91 octane pump gas (very poor quality) my evo made made 440 on BMRs dyno, 483 on dynojet, and 497 on dynapack. we put E85 in and retuned, on BMR's dyno it made 590whp @ 26psi but ran out of fuel pump (single walbro 416 on stock wiring). I will add a BAP so i can turn it up, and will bring it back to the dynojet/dynapack for a follow up comparison. only making a point that everyone comparing dyno charts from different dynos in different parts of the world and different fuels, the result will vary widely edit: here is a screen shot from the evo on E85 fuel and GT3076R singlescroll @ 1.7bar vs E85 fuel and 8374twinscroll @1.4bar: pretty neat to see how similar the spoolup is between the 2 despite the EFR being a much larger turbo

i dynoed my efr8374 evo on a dynojet, the chart shows ~45whp more than on BMR's dynamic testing dyno... and on a dynapack it had another 60whp. that qualifies it as a low reading dyno in my book. If you are basing the performance of an EFR turbo on a dynochart then you are selling yourself short -- they arent for dyno queens. edit: lith, I agree chris's graph looks great, 300tq at 3100rpm .. not bad

the car we've been working on is the keeper's R34 GTR with 2.6L and twin 6258s (this is not a high reading dyno) We also have an R34 and an R33 getting the same kit on 2.8L engines over the next couple of weeks. The only r32 gtr @ Full-Race is the front clip I bought to use for mockups.,, Perhaps you are thinking of Danh Tran's carbon R32 time attack machine? he is under the gun prepping for WTAC right now: https://www.facebook.com/danh.tran.10 Before the keeper's efr6258, he had -5 twins.. we tried many different piping configs and i dont see how its the pipe design that causes the shuffle... but if your experience got rid of it then great.

if its about cost and stock fitment, the garretts will obviously be your choice. For world class performance, and getting rid of the garrett twin turbo "shuffle" EFRs are tough to beat

stock stroke RB26, 88lb/min compressor, 200tq @ 3000rpm, 300tq @ 4000rpm #notbad one thing that doesn't get enough mention is the annoying "shuffle" thats always present due to surge at low rpms on the small twin garrett RB26's... its completely absent with the twin EFR's Im a diehard single turbo guy, my RB26 runs a twinscroll EFR because its so simple/easy/fast to service and work on the setup... BUT there is something to be said for the very low inertia on the twins.. that 6258 combination really works great and with the integrated BOV and IWG it is deceptively tame, doesnt feel like an 88lb/min setup whatsoever I agree the EFR7670 would be crazy responsive on the RB26. However keep in mind if you really turn up the boost or go to a larger dispalcement bottom end .. that 7670 compressor map could run out of headroom, whereas the increased airflow rates found on the 8374 or twin 6258 compressors would really keep it in the peak efficiency range correct - the EFR 6258 spooled the same and made more power, so the 6255 never saw the light of day Full-Race has the 8374's in stock now as well as the 6258s... i cant fix the past but there is no wait at this time the twin kit requires (2) turbos, (2) downpipes, (2) charge pipes (2) manifolds, (2) sets of oil lines... not a bolt-on stock cast manifolds affair like the gt turbos you are comparing against the evoX crowd is having problems with cracking the cast-iron precision turbine housings. The reason is because their turbine housing are cast iron... In a high load/high temp application it is crucial to use a suitable material especially if the car will be tracked. Hi-Sil Moly or 'HSM' and 'ni-resist' are still ductile iron castings but the addition of silicon in the alloy goes to the surface of the casting and helps prevent rust, while the Molybdenum increases stability and helps prevent cracking at higher temperature. I’m always amazed how much the addition of these materials improves strength at high temp, and resists long term cracking. For reference, it is still possible to crack HSM or ni-resist: we recently got a report of a cracked housing on two 88mm S500SX HSM turbine housings after three tractor pull events. These guys are running two 88mm S500SX’s; at 68psi (4.6 bar boost)…and 1100°C (2012°F!!!!). stainless steel would definitely be the right call for them generally those type of claims come from people who sell precision turbos I also enjoyed that video, well done and a lot of fun. looking forward to see more from him in the future

Most of our RB customers use the 8374. however there is a drift team in southern California "Animal Auto" using RB25 with EFR 7064. here is the motor setup: Also on their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/AnimalAuto, check the vids from april 11 and may 21, the engine does not sound like most RB25's I will ask - I do not know the answer to that one Correct - in the last 2 years all Indycar teams are using off-the-shelf EFR6758 or EFR9180 and zero turbo failures to date the 8374 is a really, really good turbo, my favorite turbo ive ever had on my RB26. If you are coming off a GT35R you will not be disappointed. We have this available as T3 or Twinscroll T4 IWG right now. (1.05 a/r still has a very long backorder )

BW's ETA last year at SEMA and PRI was Q3 2013... we will see what happens but it sounds like sept (maybe? lol). I know everyone hates waiting but the EFR supply is improving. We're seeing product come in, 8374 twinscroll iwg, t3 iwg, and some 9180s coming through also. Twin RB guys 6258 and 6758 are popular but arriving also the 7163 is the largest of the B1 frame turbos and will eventually be available in vband inlet/outlet singlescroll and 0.80 a/r T4 twinscroll configuration. The initial 7163 prototypes were all excellent performers and the production units underwent further development and improvements. it is only a 2.5" inlet and 2" outlet so its not for everyone, but it does have some unique features the 7064 is the smallest of the B2 frame turbos, and available as t4 twinscroll or t3 singlescroll. I agree there is some overlap here but both are excellent turbos and serve different levels of exhaust flow... For engines that needs more turbine flow this 7064 does that (64mm turbine and 0.92 or 1.05 a/r). We have a professional RB25 drift competitor in the us doing great on that turbo. the idea of the 7163 was to make max powerband in the smallest possible package size. The mixed flow turbine wheel is able to acheive this goal nicely. Sorry i do not have any specs for public consumption yet, you can be sure we will post online once they're available ive been running Full-Race for 11 years now, youre the only person whos ever asked for more T3 twinscroll housings ;>

I am not a wiring expert, but i think you may need this little box: http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbo-accessories/road-rage-gages-tss-turbo-speed-scaler-2.html

glad to hear you found an external-WG EFR turbo locally - we only have the EFR Internal-WG models in stock right now. On my RB26 i was running 8374 1.05 a/r with twin 38mm, 1 bar springs. on WG pressure only no problem holding a steady 17psi and with BCSV duty cycle at 100% i ran it to 32-33psi for 704whp (through a high flow cat). here is a short video: correct - 0.5 bar is 0.5 bar whether there is 1 or 2 wastegates (or more) i have not seen any severe boost creeping EFR turbos, especially good to see on the internal WG variants!

the larger the wastegate size, the lower the boost level you will be able to run. If you do not plan to run low boost, (2) x 38mm is sufficient. If you want to run low boost without creeping, thats where (2) x 44mm would be suggested

i use the quaife in my rb26, absolutely love it. I have a carbonetic front lsd in my evo, and i LOVE the carbonetic clutches and rear diffs... but for a front diff, i really like this quaife

awesome thank you guys!! i have some phone calls to make..

that is plan B, i have a trusty JUN pump here, waiting to see what ProFab has or can sell me anyone else have any other options or does everybody just upgrade the stocker

thanks Brad, i searched but did not see anybody making a kit, I am sure this is not new but I have only 4 weeks until my next race and trying to work something simple without going drysump. we are definitely not interested to develop or sell these or be a competitor to you- just need to get my race car going...We can machine and fabricate the items, just want to have a solid plan together and not have to do things twice. would you mind posting some photos of your kit? do you sell parts/pieces or only the complete setup? also if you could elaborate on the oil surge, thank you

hi everyone, I am starting to mockup a single stage external oil pump (wet sump) on my RB26. using a Ross or ATI crank pulley and thinking to use a Petersen single stage wet sump pulling from stock pickup and pressurizing the factory location on the block (not a big fan of moroso) Curious who else has done this and if you have any photos or ideas. thanks

late night doing some RB26 planning for myself @ 1AM and saw the thread, figured id try and answer a few questions Thats a great question we are often asked .. twinturbo VS single twinscroll? lately the answer has been twin becuase we have them consistently in stock, and they haul the mail.. From a performance and function standpoint both have pros and cons -- Truth be told, Im a die-hard single turbo guy... but learning what I have through this EFR process, and talking to Indycar drivers -the twin EFRs will have lower inertia than the bigger single: this means faster response on the twins and a slight advantage on smaller tracks and/or tight turns. We refined our twin turbo RB26 kit a LOT over the last few months, it now fits the r32/33/34 chassis equally well, and a bit simpler to plumb. <R32 must convert to single output PS pump! rb20, rb25, r33, z32, etc> off-the-shelf B1 EFR turbos will fit and our vband downpipe adapts to stock/aftermarket style Y-pipe ( the charge pipes are simplified too). However that being said a single turbo is easier and faster to work on and access .. and you dont need as much plumbing and pipework. The twinscroll 9180 is a beast but availability is a joke... if we ever get them in i might be able to suggest them as an option... we should see 1.45 a/r housing upgrades available in July for 8374 and 9180 also - this 1.45 9180 EFR is a true legitimate 1000whp 67mm combination. currently my RB26 has the 8374 twinscroll on it because we race on a tight track, and my racecar is a LHD s-chassis, very tight space constraints with my brake boost/master and steering shaft.. I am tempted to make the twins fit tho... not sure yet 7670 is small for a built RB26, I expect you would be operating it at an overspeed condition. Really there is no benefit to that and it's harder on the motor to make the power - higher backpressure/egt/iat and no real benefit. I run the 8374 with twin external gats on my RB26 at the moment and absolutely love it, as does the blue R34 weve had in pics (although internal gate on his). I will have to get some photos and vids for you he is driving it daily and loves the powerband but he is only at 24psi, i am running 30 on mine. also on my daily driver evo i run the 8374 internal gate at 30psi on pumpgas... absolutely love this turbo and can not say enough good things about it for cars that can put the power down. i expect we will see a bunch more of the 8374 twinscroll iwg soon - the others with external gate are still lagging the EFR9180 is the largest of the family, and when the 1.45 a/r becomes available it will be a legitimate 1000hp turbo. Here is my friend's 2.5L subaru STi engine who tested the S300SX 9180 0.91 a/r vs EFR9180 1.05 a/r at 5500ft elevation and only 33psi boost: ^^ignore the jagged torque dropoff, that was tire spin -- its really impressive to see that a 94lb/min compressor turbo can spool faster than an 80lb/min compressor turbo, due to the lightweight rotating assy and aero/efficiency on the flat tip turbine found on the 8375 you are 100% correct! FYI on the newer FMW turbo is available with a cupped tip wheel which flows quite a bit more and you can go one size down on a/r vs the flat tip if you want a comfy 400kw on pump and would like to stay in the S300SX family - the FMW with cupped tip and .91 a/r would be my vote. You could also do it with a 1.00 a/r but its not necessary like on the flat tip wheel as much as we would like to have RB25 EFR results, the turbo availabilty is still sparse and RB engines are very rare in the USA.... since no cars sold here ever had RBs. Its actually REALLY difficult for us skyline enthusiasts here, hell i bought an R32 GTR clip for the sake of getting the EFR twin turbo fitments perfected - R34 gtr on the hoist with the R32 clip right next to it, test fitting/tweaking/repeat. We will have RB25 results eventually but like Lith said its pretty easy to extrapolate trends from existing data and results. also the borgwarner matchbot is a simple to use tool that can really help you get in the ballpark on professional turbo matching (watch the youtube videos for an intro)

There are 4 options of varying work to consider for your 60mm compressor / flat tip 75mm turbine / 0.91 ar housing: a) turbine housing swap to 1.00 a/r - this will allow you make another 30-40kw at the top end, losing only 100rpm spool, very simple easy and fast to do b) turbine wheel swap to cupped tip - on the .91 a/r this will allow you to make ~30-40kw more, losing only 100rpm spool in the midrange. I did a test on a friends supra not too long ago if youd like to see. Slightly more work than a housing swap but not much. FYI BW's airwerks turbos are "component" balanced, meaning the turbine wheel is balanced independantly of the compressor wheel. This allows service in the field : you can take the turbo apart, remove the turbine wheel and install the different turbine wheel - not necessary to balance. c) the compressor wheel will probably be out of breath around ~450kw so if you want more than that it would be wise to step up to in compressor wheel size. The S300SX 9180 is a 66mm inducer thats VERY impressive - but will spool later. For an RB30 i think that is the S300SX of choice. d) EFR 8374 1.05 is what i believe the perfect single turbo for an RB26. I ran all the S300 turbos on my RB26 for a while then when i switched to the EFR i got the spool of the smallest S300 with the powerband of the big one, not to mention the sound is intoxicating. This to me is my best setup ive run in the last 7 years. Obviously these turbos arent cheap and there is still a wait on the external WG versions (internal gate twinscroll 8374s are shipping regularly at the moment) but i do think that if you are looking for the fastest response and 500kw power target, this would do the job better than any other turbo Im aware of the FMW S300 is a great turbo - very similar to the EFR 8374 in terms of compressor flow. Which turbine wheel and housing did you go with? FYI the larger displacement 3L engine would typically benefit from more compressor if youre going to really push it so I typically recommend the larger S300SX 9180 with .91 a/r. of course if you want the response the FMW will do it

hi simon - ill address the items you brought up: a) ETS pro in center console is what I did, it seems most people like to put it under the parcel shelf, doesnt matter b) There is no need for the g sensor to be located at the stock position like the stocker. It just needs to be firmly attached (like you said, epoxy! not double sided tape) to the center of the car with the arrow pointing forwards. Of course there is nothing wrong with lengthening these wires also just unscrew the wire from the terminal block c) if you remove the stock ets unit / g sensor/ wiring you will get the 4wd light on, and your gauge will not work. Some people want the gauge to move about so they leave it in. I also expect you would lose your ABS by removing this but most GTRs serious about performance would eliminate abs anyway since it is not a motorsport abs system d) the attessa pump only gets +12V from the turn on relay, removing the wiring should not affect that - only the pressure switch should. The solenoid (what you called the regulator) is controlled by only 2 wires and those go to the black/white wire on the ETS-Pro

hello sir!! Very nice to see your thread, looks like things are working well for you. When we first spoke, your requirement was 400KW with fast spool, so I specced the Borg Warner 83-75 w/ flat tip turbine wheel and .91 a/r. This is an excellent match to your requirement - but as you found when you went to turn the boost up it did not make more power. This is (duh) becuase you will need a larger compressor wheel and/or higher flowing turbine side (cupped tip and/or larger AR housing would be a good starting point). If you wish make more power I am more than happy to help. You can either change your turbos' housings or change to a different supercore (turbo less turbine housing) which would allow you to use the existing turbine housing and plumbing, just changing the rotors.. There are many solutions, but I do not think the preicision will be the end all solution. up to you guys of course!

good stuff john - eager to hear your feedback the 4wd light will come in IF you leave the stock computer's solenoid wires disconnected (since the ETS pro is now connected to them). To keep the light off you can wire an 8ohm resistor into these 2 wires (dummy electrical load) and the computer thinks its still working, so light will be off and the gauge functions normally **note - the ets-pro wires should not connect to the 8ohm resistor or to the stock computers solenoid wires** (this should go without saying but we did have 1 customer who did not follow the directions and hooked the wires up crazy, frying the circuit board)

the EFR 6758 are the larger compressors than EFR 6258 and they are the identical size. if you have a 3L+ engine going hard at high boost then 6758 twins are recommended. All of the Lotus and Chevy Indycars use twin EFR6758's on a v6. bri73y briefly tried the 7163 as a twin on his 2.6L and it was way too much turbo so he went back to 6258's I agree your 7064 will run out of compressor for a 4G63 at 30psi and 9500rpm - of course it will be great to see what it can do at full tilt on the new motor. Considering your evo already runs an external wastegate twinscroll setup, the 7670 would be my recommendation and a simple swap for your existing 7064. the 8374 requires a bit more work to fit in an evo due to the larger compressor housing. 7163 will not be available with twinscroll external wg dont underestimate the 6758 - it packs a lot of punch and very quick response. I spoke with dario franchetti - 4x winner of Indy500 (And he won this year on a twinscroll 9180). he said he wishes he was on the twin 6758 becuase they are faster on the small tracks. There will be a .86 a/r T25 housing coming in july as well as the .80 twinscroll T4 housing im planning on the same exact turbos as you but on my 3.5L V6 F150. i think we can make 600tq on the 7064 and 700tq on the 7163 wow, that is not typical. what did you make the divider plate out of? hopefully 321, otherwise it can fail and possibly damage things

This module gives you higher performance than the stock system. It does not require the stock G-sensor be in the car whatsoever - You can remove it, keep it in place, do whatever you like with it. The only reason some people like to keep it in place is to keep the stock gauge moving happily on street cars. edit: on race cars this is a non issue of course and every ounce matters so they get chucked