Beer Baron

thanks Steve, I was hoping you'd post up. interesting to see two EFR powered cars (yours and EVO and John's GTR) ended up together in the results! judging by your results with the 8374 it makes me wonder how nice something like the 7670 or 7064 would be on a street/part-time track EVO? maybe 300-350kw and very responsive. You're running twin ext gate on your 8374 yeah? same as you did with the GTX and the T04Z? I can't want to see John's GTR with 2bar in it. Given on paper the twin 6258s sit somewhere between a single 8374 and a 9180 I'm hoping it'll get well into 450kw+ at the wheels at 2bar.

well in my experience two well sized twins will out-perform a well sized single. so at a given power level the twins will give better response. a few reasons. for starters if you think twin scroll is good then twin turbos take that one step further with completely separate housings, wastegates, manifolds and exhaust exit path. on a RB26 firing order means you end up with 1 pulse in the front 1 pulse in the rear, and so on back and forward. two small twin turbines also should have less inertia than one large wheel of approx 1.5 times to double the size. in this case the twin 6258s were available at the time as were the full race manifolds to mount them but none of the larger singles was available. also, some people prefer the look and packaging of twins. granted with the EFR twins they are not exactly 'compact' as the housings are longer than garrett twins most often used but they do look pretty neat. I'll put up some pics of the install soon. It was a massive amount of work with this car being the first R32 done but I think Full Race is going to work with us to improve that for the future. Given the performance of these twins I'd seriously question whether for a GTR you are better off with these or with a single 8374 or even 9180? these are performing pretty damn well and combined two 6258s will outflow a single 8374 (on paper at least) and come pretty close to a single 9180. and lag is certainly not an issue even on a 2.6L....

yep both plots on same fuel, same tuner, same engine, same cams, same car etc and in similar weather and same altitude. as far as I know NOTHING was changed except the turbos. even has the same exhaust (new dumps obviously), same intercooler etc. they do pretty much exactly what I had hoped. better than -10 power with better than -5 response (well certainly equal to -5). I'm really keen to see them on more boost.

looking at the graph it's pretty cool to see it hits 23psi at 95km/h vs 23psi at 125km/h with the -10s! at 112km/h (around 4,000tpm I think) it makes nearly double the power! from 210hp to 400hp! John said the car felt amazing to drive. just hauls out of corners now. I watched him at a few places at it certainly was quick in a straight line too. it's now making over 400kw atw even on this fairly conservative dyno. another measure of it's performance is the fact John did a 1:40 flat at superlap despite no aero at all and no time to set-up the car etc before hand. just a basic tune on 18psi with the new turbos. Pretty good result I think.

ok, here's something that should make some people happy. RESULTS! This is a graph for a R32 GTR running twin 6258s on twin full race manifolds. It's a 100% circuit car and competes in a whole range of stuff. it's been developed over a number of years and is a pretty good package. Built 2.6L RB26, hollinger sequential, big brakes etc, running a link ECU on E85 and tuned here in Sydney. It originally had garret 2860 -5s and made good power. with a move to more circuit stuff (used to do some tarmac stuff if memory serves me) and the quest for more power some 2860 -10s went on. it made a bit more power but the lag wasn't great and it suffered the usual turbo shuffle/surge problems at low RPM/high TPS% stuff (ie coming out of slow corners on the track with the throttle nailed). as a result it wasn't nearly as sharp coming out of corners as it was on the -5s. The owner was about to go back to -5s for Superlap but asked me what I thought about these new 6258s. We had a look and decided they were worth a shot. There were some dramas with fitting etc (never been fitted to a 32 before) but once fitted and sorted the results were good. For reliability sake (given the current issues with wheels etc) boost was pegged at ~20psi and for superlap down to 18psi for safety but it made more power everywhere, with less boost. Once the wick is wound up to 25psi+ they should really hum nicely. Please take the outright numbers with a grain of salt. this car with the -10s made over 400kw on another DD dyno but this is where it was initially run so it was back on the same dyno for tuning and this makes the comparison valid. enjoy the graph which was kindly provided by the cars owner, John.

yes but either way I think you've mixed up the lines. dotted line is power for sure. other line would be boost or possibly torque. it's only hitting 250ps at 4000 RPM which is around 180kw. I agree it's probably at the wheels. it's pretty good but not super awesome.

well if the garrets are $2100-$2500 a pair and actuators are $450 a pair, plus gaskets, other fittings they are pretty close to HKS GTSS which are around $3000 or so (from memory) which includes HKS actuators, all gaskets and fittings etc. the HKS ones do seem to be more nicely finished too.

yeah it's funny the innovate stuff looks great, very nicely designed and rates very highly in reviews I've seen done. real world feedback though is less than glowing on their reliability. which is a shame as they are so cheap now. considering you can buy a kit for $200 I'd practically have one in every car. wasn't long ago a basic 4wire sensor, controller and display of some kind was $600-$1000 5 wire of course even more. now you can have one for $200 it makes sense to do some basic monitoring from time to time.

can get a good idea of it from the fuel pressure... lol.

yeah I wish I could tell you something good but as it is right now my advice is just sit back and wait a bit more (i know that's been said before) and just see how it shakes out. things are moving along and the results will come.

I think they are doing both. I know BW is testing them internally and also getting them out there. in the end they need feedback from users to make sure they have got it right. I'm glad they do as that's how we learn how they perform in the real world from people not employed by the company making them.

only when no one else is around to hear them....

sorry, wrong R32. the R32 I supplied the 6258s for is not the Advan/Hi-Octane R32 (which does still have 2860 -5s on but is going to an EFR set-up soon), it's another car. it's the BPG R32 owned by John Bright. no graphs yet but he might give me some I can post soon.

no way are you getting 400kw with 2510s. seriously. even 2530s are really more a 350-370kw pair of turbos in most cases. you CANNOT have "responsive" and "400kw". I mean standard GTRs are not what I'd call 'responsive' any any bigger turbos you put on only makes that worse. you need to give up one to have the other. you can have responsive if you accept more like 300kw. or you can have 400kw and accept it won't be as fast on the street 90% of the time as a 300kw GTR is. or you can go half way, get the 2530s and have neither the 400kw or the response but fairly close to each. My advise would be run GTSS, 23psi and you should have beween 300-330kw atw and it will be fast and still fun on the road.

but for $200 including a boss kit (which vary from $50 to $100 on their own) you are looking at second hand or chinese copy stuff only. not going to find a genuine italian made leather momo or nardi for $100-$150 new... still nothing wrong with used if it's good nick. given it's something you use all the time though maybe consider saving a few more bucks and hold out for something nicer?

yeah I agree. with a V8SC budget we could all go faster but not sure the driver is giving much away. I watched a few of the cyber in-car laps with their data engineer (including the 1:28) and got to say he is not lacking for talent which is amazing considering how few laps he's done at EC. he has a few little tricks in that cyber car that help get it moving fast.

John your time was awesome mate for an un-tested car. in open you would have got 2nd place which is a pretty good measure of the car! Much respect for having the balls to put the car in Pro class (which is fair since it's a workshop owned car) but we know you don't have the resources or sponsor dollars of some of the pro guys. but the line is pretty blurred between pro and open anyway. 1:35 for the car debut with a completely new set-up is very good going.

hmm, sorry I thought it was josh's car (too many knocks had me calling him jamie not josh. sorry). and yeah earl drove the wheels off it. all round awesome effort on what I imagine was not a massive budget, just lots of know how.

yep, it'll be with a Borg Warner. EFR 9180.

yeah first lap pace on A050s is awesome. puts a lot of pressure on that lap though as if you get baulked or stuff the exit onto the straight etc that lap (and that set of tyres) is gooooone. but that makes it all the more exciting. you have to go out and perform on que. makes it like a giant V8SC style top 10 shootout where you get 1 lap to hang it all out there.

sorry my bad. it's been 12 hours since I've had a dart and I get cranky. plus to be honest I'm just a little bit jealous... please keep singing my praises. someone has to. and yes I do have hands like a 5 year old girl. but work hard when I have to. spot on about cars on track for more time. the fact is (as you well know) the current generation of semi-slicks are as fast (maybe faster than most even) as a set of slicks but only have that bullshit fast pace for 1 lap. after that they drop 1 second. so if your second lap is going to be 1 second slower than the first why bother doing one? not such a big deal for most guys but at the pointy end that 1 second is the difference between front of the top ten and bottom of the top ten. not sure there will ever be a cure for it. it's the same in F1 in qualifying they get 1 (maybe 2) laps out of brand new slicks at bullshit fast pace and then they are resigned to 'race tyres' as they go off straight away too. good semi's are so soft on that first lap it's insane. but you just never get it back. maybe we should have 1.5 days of time attack and then on the arvo of day 2 make the top 10 cars do a 10 lap race for the top honours?? lol. you certainly wouldn't see many guys game enough to go up the inside of Jamie Cootes car with it's hammerhead wing!! and Mark would probably have to pit for fuel after 4 or 5 full noise laps with the tiny fuel cell it has!! would certainly be interesting but not likely in this lifetime. time attack has it's ups and downs but one of the big draw cards IS the fact that it's different to other classes of door to door racing. the no holes barred approach to rule making is a big change to most classes too and that's why we get to see such cool creative ideas like the MCA silvia. it may look bloody silly but sweet jeebus it's fast.

brabham is a good stand. inside of T1 so you're almost guaranteed a first lap first corner acco. plus that's usually a good passing spot up the inside of T1, hold it on the outside through T2 then hold that line for the inside of T3 and job done. yeah the cars come in hot down the straight but T1/T2 is a fairly slow chicane type of thing. you will see plenty.

noel, 'thekeeper' isn't a 'fanboi' and he DOES work with BW in developing the product and he HAS invested time and money in the success of the product. He has been working with BW developing the product and I'm sure he's doing anything possible to improve the current status. the failures are what they are, a new product with some teething problems. to be fair to BW to the best of my knowledge any EFR turbo that failed has been replaced by BW (I understand that may be something of a cold comfort to customers who would have to pay for installation twice). do they need some sorting out? yes they do. would I buy one for my own car? yes I will. anyway, the R32 running the twin 6258s ran hard at WTAC and got a good result considering what a massive effort he went through just to get his car there. In the very near future I'll have to think hard about do I want a single 8374 or 9180 or a pair of 6258s on my car?

there have been threads on these before. the auto88 kit you posted is a direct copy of the greddy kit. if the fact they are ripping off other peoples IP is not enough to stop you buying it then go look at the threads where people who bought other copy greddy products (including simple stuff like these kits) posted and see how poorly they are made and how poorly they fit. yes the genuine one costs $1200 but nice parts cost money because they are well designed with many hours of work to make them right and they are then well made with good QC and then combined with good quality fasteners and joiners. it's your car but cheap copy piping on cars just spells poorly looked after car to me. it's your money but what's the point saving $800 on the parts if you then go and spend $400 in labour getting it cleaned up and modified to fit and in the end it's still a rip-off of someone else's hard earned design.

lol, russ told me the story of a bloke at an event one year who decided he'd try and take T1 flat in a monaro.... didn't work out. he reckoned he could try again though. 'just needed to get his head around it'... haha. borrowed car too. yeah well done getting off the coffin nails marlin. Russ tells me your sex drive has improved as a result.. very happy for you both. there's a few things that could be improved but overall the event was amazing. I strongly agree some big screens showing lap times and current order of the cars would be fantastic. yes the PA system is a bit average but all the SCREAMING doesn't help either. especially when it's two blokes or three blokes all screaming at once. that's just not helping anyone. overall they did improve over last year though and I was able to hear some times called when it counted. It just needs some fine tuning. having no drifting during the day and holding it at night instead was a master stroke. it meant maximum track time for the time attack guys and also meant heaps more track time for the drifters instead of stupid little 10 min demos throughout the day. plus drifting looks kind of cool at night under lights and the drifters are happy as they get to break out all the gay little strobes and neons and christmas lights and what have you. just a shame that big acco on friday meant a bit disruption in proceedings right as it was kicking off. as far as that part of the event goes I wouldn't change a thing. keep the drifting after hours and have it both days again (qualy runs on friday and top 16 or top 32 on saturday). it also means guys who like that stuff can check out the drift cars in the pits during the day. with maximising track time during the day I'm not sure how they could improve that? all the sessions were for the various time attack classes and from memory each group got 4 sessions per day. not sure they can do it any other way with over 100 entrants. maybe shorten the sessions a tad and try for 5 sessions? the problem is though the more distinct sessions there are the more lost time there is between each one. I think the way it was is probably as good as it can get. trade stands were great again and crowd was great too. some pushed the boundaries a bit but most were cool and polite.