PPO2 Kane

I just checked it and it seems to work.... Are you referring to the timing on the FD? If so - that is from the factory Apexi Tune!!!!! Not very safe if you ask me.

I can totally respect that. Would it help if you saw the math? I am not sure what this means...

We're back bitches!!!!! With some new cool stuff. If you get your Target AFR's into THIS format in excel. Then you can copy and paste them into Baseline (AFTER YOU SET UP YOUR ENGINE). Just Go to Options, and then the Target AFR Bulk Loader Button. Then Highlight all the old stuff, right click and delete, then right click and paste new stuff. Be sure the Load and RPM Scales are accurate.

Thanks Mate. Sorry for the long delay.

PPO2's Tuning Software Introduction Video IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Version 1.5 will be released in May with MAF based tuning supported! This copy will work until May 15th 2009. *** Updated Version 1.4*** Sorry for the delay folks; I had some issues to resolve. I will try to get out new versions of the Beta as I fix MAJOR issues. Link to Download Version 1.4 - ZIP Clicky!!! UNZIPPED Clicky!!! You MUST have MS Access 2000 or later to use the Beta version. If not you will have to wait until I move it to a standalone. How to Use the Wizard Help This sets up the motor for Baseline How to Import a Datalog into Baseline How to Create a Tune and View User Guide is in progress under "Help". Sample Log File to play with - http://www.mediafire.com/?mmntwl0wknm For Hondata - use the % to Add or Remove; since your maps are not in Duration or Duty Cycle. For PFC - UPDATE!!! Apexi PFC Now Has the Duration Map available! For IntX - Be sure to set up the auxilary fueling in the Injector Setup Window by Checking the Auxiliary Fueling Block. And use the % to Add or Remove also. For AP Racetuner - go ahead an set the Manifold PSI Scale up in load - and see what kind of logs you get; I don't know how it will work yet - but if you are bored. I do know the HP calculations will be wayyyyyy off. Go to http://ppo2performance.com/ for more information...

FINALLY!!! I have finished the Help Files. Everything is Documented except for the Appendixes. Happy Reading... You all have NO IDEA how much I hated doing this... LOL http://ppo2performance.com/docs/?page_id=15

- The answer is no - chances are the later RPM portions of that map is over-retarded for "safety".Well your parameters (air fuel, engine temp, air velocity, piston velocity, fuel make-up, spark plug location) do affect timing to a great degree - but the real reason why we see timing maps like this is because of the "rules" of tuning timing. Think of the tuning process when done on a dyno or on the street over a 1-3 hour tuning session. Generally accepted rule: You have to retard timing at the torque peak of the motor; and slowly advance timing through the higher RPM's. Looking to keep the EGT as low as possible while still making power; timing map would kind of make a _/\_ in a 3d view of one load scale. Ok cool; but no one really knows by what degree to do this; so they guess / go on expierience - if the motor makes good power and doesn't grenade then life is good. Then we have our dyno tune - one session; so what is going to happen? The motor is going to get heak soaked; so that will obviously affect power output, egt and propensity to detonate. Now our tuner straps the car down and starts his run (let's assume he is on an eddy current dyno); he gets his WOT pull and holds the car at his target RPM and Boost/Load cell he is going to play with... then using the AFR, Dyno readings and EGT, he starts to advance the timing.... he see's that he is making power. So far so good; now does he advance until it starts to ping and then back off a few degrees? If he does that; then he has a motor that has already knocked some; and will be MUCH more likely to knock again until it fully cools down. So you can tune one cell at a time; and then let the motor fully cool - but that is not really cost effective. So he decides to use the EGT and dyno to sneak up on the power - without overdoing it; cool - so he has what feels like a good powerband - no knock and the motor seems safe. For that day and that tank of gas. Again; coupled with his expierience he cross compares what your motor is doing to what other motors have done. Notice all of the subjective terms..."back off some" - how much? It doesn't say back off 3 degrees. With this in mind; the timing maps commonly in use make sense; they are safe - make good power; and if you don't know any better then life is good. I have seen FD's running 45-50 degrees of advance at 7500 RPM; and I have also seen the same motor set-up running 30 degrees of advance; with both motors on the same twin turbo set-up; and both owners loved the car tune.... so which one was better? I think the biggest timing related issue is that most people consider it a "black art"; and as long as their motor is happy; and they are making the power they wanted - then they just call it good. Now if you have an in-cylinder scope / fiber optic transducer; you could play with the timing and KNOW that your reaching max cylinder pressure at whatever degree... but they are expensive. The last option; is to use the physics model - and simulate an in cylinder pressure sensor... according to the research I have (and references on my site); this simulation is really close to actual. And we'll know more once we start to test with the University folks.

Updated Version 1.3 Available. Now does calculations for Apexi PFC on the RX7

If you are going to go down that road; I would recommend the Fiber Optic Spark Plugs; that contain a pressure transducer. Then you will really know when you making maximum cylinder pressure. But they are kind of pricey. Again, keep in mind this is for a street tune; this is not a bleeding edge tune by any stretch. This is for the people who are too cheap/lazy to go and play on a dyno for hours just prior to track day. With 340 at the wheels in my RX8 I almost never get to go WOT anyways; so I don't really need that extra few ponies.... this is software for people that think like me.... LOLZ

Geometery - I should have said Typically 12 deg ATDC; anything less than 12 - and the force of the explosion is pushing directly on the crankshaft; as opposed to rotating it; anything after 12; and the force is diminished by the volume changes in the cylinder; IE you have wasted some of the torque possible by firing too late. While extreme cases can affect things; in reality the direct relation ship between 1 piston, rod and crank is the same regardless of bore and stroke etc. You have O-O basically; so the two circles are always going to relate to each other in the same degree path regardless of circle size or the length of that straight line (the rod). As always I cannot dictate what degree to use in the map - just like the AFR map; the end user has to decide that for themself. Here is a link http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/chevy502.php about it. About halfway down the page. Some real detailed information can be found in "How to Tune and Modify EFI Engines" by Jeff Hartmen; but you gotta buy the book.

I'm gonna reply in your original post. Awesome questions so far guys. It is nice to see a highly educated skeptical community out there; anything less and we can't improve the software.

Since I hate clicking links too.... HEH Here is the copy from my blog. The actual math we are keeping close to the vest... but the models are publically available if you wanna research them. This will be the next step in development - the University lab we are wrking with has a variable compression motor - and once we get the software able to spit out timing maths faster than we can right now - we will be testing this out in real life. How it affects international fuel I am not sure; I haven't started looking at their MSDS's yet. Also, we are rounding for safety - so our maps may be 1-2 Degrees off; but I have made the executive decision that for our goals - there is no reason to ask you to provide baseline with information about (ring makeup and geometry, spark plug locations, thread pitch etc) - we are just assuming the worse case.

Do you mean acceleration enrichment or transition from vacuum to boost? Transition is actually that is the one area where I find the most holes.... Since it happens so fast; and most people are not accounting for latency of the AFR readings; it tends to have bad lean or rich spots depending on the tuner. With Baseline; law of large numbers again; we measure the transition a bunch of times and can snapshot it pretty well; all the FI MAP guys that have used it comment on how much smoother that part is. As for acceleration enrichment; the beta has not been activated yet - but I have used it and we use a gamma mode to calculate it. The difference is we calculate the base fuel amount to ""gamma-ize" off of the most common basemap cell in use at that load point. So if you gamma is 1.2 = 120% of base fueling; and at 4000 RPM your most commonly at 2 PSI - then we use 120% of your fueling at 2 PSI. Motec is a good source for more information about Gamma stuff. Some of that still needs to be fleshed out before I activate it in the Beta.

It is a bit of a "yes, no, and maybe". A good tuner; I would say we would be about equal... if I had to guess; for a street tune. Now - every "tuned" car that I have run on Baseline; the software has found holes in... so take that as marketing BS or lack of really good tuners; your call. But price vs what you get. $100 for some software you can use forever vs a few hundred every tuning session... For me personally; I like being able to re-tune everytime I mod the car; since I am always in the garage tinkering with crap.

I think he is speaking more about the law of large numbers. If you strap it to the dyno on Day 1 - With Gas 1; and Temp 1 - then you get a fuel map that covers 3000 data points. Cool; that is a reasonable statistic for a tune. Now - if you log 200,000 datapoints over a few days of driving; then your tune is a better sample of the engine; alot better. Now if you continually log/tune - then that is the best infinite right? So as you approach infinity - you get a closer and closer model of the actual system you are measuring. The difference between STFT, LTFT and Baseline; is that I run a LTFT for every load cell in the motor going back forever... and I have no "limits" to the adjustments I can make - so big VE changes are not going to peg the PCM. But the concept is the same yes. And my LTFT Targets are set by the user - not the factory.

Joe (Security) - just hit me up about this thread. Funny how things spread on the internet. My name is Kane - I am "that guy" doing this software. The RX8 thread is long and off topic in some ways - typical. But if you want the up to date information without the BS; go to www.ppo2performance.com Keep in mind; we are developing now - so not everything is "proven" yet - then again; the software is free right now....so not all bad news. I have been running it on my RX8 for a year (with one motor still); and have tuned an FD RX7; Acura Integra RSX; Toyota MR2 SPyder; Joe's Skyline; an Evo; and a half dozen or so other RX8's with it. Right now we are working on cleaning up the fueling models - and we have a timing model done but need to be verified. We are using the University of Idaho's graduate engineering department to help us out with the timing. There were a lot of good points brought up in this thread - and I am excited to get some good feedback and try to answer any more you guys have. So fire away (read the site first please - it answers a-lot already). Last note; the old "tuner can do it better" argument. A good tuner can; I'll never dispute that; there are too many variables. But on a street driven car... for the money difference; is it competitive? And that tune is only good for the motor at that VE% level (with the exception of some MAF cars)... so new cam profile, rising rate fuel regulator, intake (for MAF cars), climate (MAP), means you'll be back on the dyno again. IMO - the extra 20-30 HP I have to sacrifice to safety using the software is worth the few G's I'll sepnd on dyno time. But I don't race much. Everything I have done is in the context of street driven car.... but the science is universal so could I do a race / more aggresive tune? Sure if your willing to risk it...same with a real tuner. EDIT - oh yeah the timing thing the reason why it is such a big deal is because while all detonation is bad; pistons can take a bit of it (trial and error tuning); Rotaries cannot take much if any without grenading the engine. So the idea of hitting peak cylinder pressure without ping is attractive to me especially. And I think a bonus to Piston folks too.