Wow, this thread went from "need step by step info on how to remove rb20det flywheel" to "Sorry mate have to beg to differ.... What qualifications/calcuations are you basing your comments on?If you don't have the adapter or an air compressor the rope it the way to go to hold valves up.The force to crack the flywheel bolts is going to be a lot less than a rb20 spinning at 8500rpm with 20psi jambed down the cylinder. Bend a rod with less than a few hundered lb force pushing directly down on. Yeh right. Shear a gudgeon pin. Good luck you'll never manage it with the small amount of pressure. Piston will be damaged before the pin. If the big end bearings have taken many times the cracking torque of the flywheel bolts for hundereds of housands of km's at 3500rpm I think it would be more than safe.Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it. Anyway there would still be residual oil in there. What do you think happens the instant your car engine fires but also its spinning producing heat in the mix. I'd be safe in guessing you could put over 2 tons force in a press on a rb20 rods and it still wouldn't bend.We alway feed different objects into cylinders after doing valve reams without removing the head to guide the valves back into the guides. A piece of rope. Seriously mate what is a piece of rope going to do? Expecially when it gets pulled out anyway. What a stupid idea? When have you ever pressed on steel with rope and damaged it?I don't know it all but would bet my left testical that there is now way in hell any damage is going to be done and if you have been silly enough to leave/drop bits down the cylinder of an engine before like other car workshops have over the years maybe only you shouldn't be working on engines. You seem very scared of objects in engines!!! I've never left anything in an engine and there worth a fair bit more than a piston engine. So don't see the problem.Flywheel bolts aren't a big torque. A corroded on harmonic balancer bolt which takes a 2 metre pole with the weight of a man hanging on it your comments might be valid. But only the damaging bearings point or as extra I would have said the piston. Not the gudgeon pin (shear force) or rod (compression).Just having a dig because I hate it when people on forums big not themselves when a person states a valid point backed up by another user that does the job and would work safely. People commonly use 3/4 inch rattle guns on the harmonic balacer bolts. I'd imagine you would have a lot more chance of damaging bearings that way with the sudden impact through the engine but I doubt this would do anything either compared to the massive forces within an engine. Are they fkn idiots too?Could you please tell me the forces after making this comment "are you aware of the kind of force you are applying". Are you? I know its not much mate and a pretty simple calculation.Can you tell them if I'm such a fkn idiot and don't know! Make them aware of this massive danger!QUOTE (Rowdyr32 @ 30 Mar 2010, 09:38 PM) *Sorry mate have to beg to differ.... What qualifications/calcuations are you basing your comments on?f you don't have the adapter or an air compressor the rope it the way to go to hold valves up.The force to crack the flywheel bolts is going to be a lot less than a rb20 spinning at 8500rpm with 20psi jambed down the cylinder. Bend a rod with less than a few hundered lb force pushing directly down on. Yeh right. Shear a gudgeon pin. Good luck you'll never manage it with the small amount of pressure. Piston will be damaged before the pin. If the big end bearings have taken many times the cracking torque of the flywheel bolts for hundereds of housands of km's at 3500rpm I think it would be more than safe.Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it. Anyway there would still be residual oil in there. What do you think happens the instant your car engine fires but also its spinning producing heat in the mix. I'd be safe in guessing you could put over 2 tons force in a press on a rb20 rods and it still wouldn't bend.We alway feed different objects into cylinders after doing valve reams without removing the head to guide the valves back into the guides. A piece of rope. Seriously mate what is a piece of rope going to do? Expecially when it gets pulled out anyway. What a stupid idea? When have you ever pressed on steel with rope and damaged it?I don't know it all but would bet my left testical that there is now way in hell any damage is going to be done and if you have been silly enough to leave/drop bits down the cylinder of an engine before like other car workshops have over the years maybe only you shouldn't be working on engines. You seem very scared of objects in engines!!! I've never left anything in an engine and there worth a fair bit more than a piston engine. So don't see the problem.
Flywheel bolts aren't a big torque. A corroded on harmonic balancer bolt which takes a 2 metre pole with the weight of a man hanging on it your comments might be valid. But only the damaging bearings point or as extra I would have said the piston. Not the gudgeon pin (shear force) or rod (compression).Just having a dig because I hate it when people on forums big not themselves when a person states a valid point backed up by another user that does the job and would work safely. People commonly use 3/4 inch rattle guns on the harmonic balacer bolts. I'd imagine you would have a lot more chance of damaging bearings that way with the sudden impact through the engine but I doubt this would do anything either compared to the massive forces within an engine. Are they fkn idiots too?Could you please tell me the forces after making this comment "are you aware of the kind of force you are applying". Are you? I know its not much mate and a pretty simple calculation.Can you tell them if I'm such a fkn idiot and don't know! Make them aware of this massive danger!To start with my qualification is as a mechanic.he torque an RB20 creates at 8500rpm with 20psi shoved in is balanced and the mass is rotating. It isn't having something jam up against it to stop it moving. The torque of 155nm is to be applied to the flywheel bolt when it is installed, add 10 or 20 years of heat and micro welding of metals and the torque required to crack that bolt would be at least 250nm.
The engine running, with oil coating the bearing surface, does not have 250nm of torque pushing one way while it tries to fire the piston the other way.
Have you ever built an engine? I'm guessing not. Are you aware that you can bend a rod in a vice just by torquing the big end bolts down?Are you aware that it only takes a small microscopic crack in the bearing surface (caused by the metals touching) to f**k it?To add to that, I never said oil was protecting the stationary part, I said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. So instead of getting all keyboard warrior on me, read first.Maybe putting rope down a cylinder works for you for doing valves. The only harm there is that there is an easier and safer way to do it without shoving foreign objects inside your cylinder. But you are suggesting applying torque against the stopped piston, not just holding the valve up.Ever pulled apart an engine that has hydraulic locked? I haveEver pulled apart an engine that hydraulic locked at idle? I haveEver seen a rod with a 0.004 bend in it from such a hydraulic lock? I have
Does your magic RB20 make 250nm of torque at idle? No it doesn't.I'm not big noting myself and you never made a valid point. All you did is mention that is the method you use.I am not telling you to stop doing it. I am telling you to stop suggesting other people do it. It is a stupid idea. YES STUPID! IDEA!1. to put foreign objects into your cylinder and2. to jam a piston while applying torque to either end of the enginet's also a bit silly to bet your left testicle. I might collect on that.You might be a mechanic. Nice and I hope you enjoy it. I'm not a job knocker if people enjoy it. As for myself.. I've spent one year as a diesel mechanic. 8 years as a AME working on all aspects of Rolls Royce 250 series gas turbine engines from strip all the way down/inspect/assemble then dynoing them. These engines were worth between $350000 to $650000 depending on model. Completed 3 crash investigations with Rolls Royce America investigators and ATSB finally ending up as leading hand teaching guys twice my age and industy time. I also have a level 2 licence in non destructive testing in both magentic particle and dye penetrant. I know how metals behave in different heat and stress situations and how they crack. Also spent a few months before quiting as the head dyno operator for DSI (Borg Warners R&D centre). I'm currently contracting a licenced aircraft maintenance engineer on R22's up to multi million dollar AS350B3's and BK's. We've had heaps of piston engines apart and together. Nothing to them mate.The difference is in my trade if it stops or breaks it could cost a big $ part or worst case somebody could die. Hope this never happens. So far in my 10 years aviation experiance I haven't made any major mistakes. Nothing has ever stopped or broken. Touch wood. They just doesn't stop on the side of the road.I know air is easier. Thats what we use at work when removing the rockers.As for the oil comment you said "Do not suggest people put things down cylinders and are you aware of the kind of force you are applying to the rod, gudgeon pin and big end bearing? All with no oil to protect it. It's a f**king stupid idea and if anyone does it, they need their frickin head examined."What does "all with no oil to protect it" mean then? Why did you mention it? Maybe you need to read your own writing.I've pulled apart a hydraulic'd diesel a mate stupidly tried tow starting a 4x4 after putting it on its side. 3 bent rods. So I've pulled apart a stationary hydraulic locked motor. Would have had a lot more than 4thou bent it them and they were diesel rods! Doesn't mean anything. Not really. What your talking about with a running motor is completely different.If the engine hydraulic'd at idle it was spinning at atleast 850rpm. Thats a lot of force with the harmonic balacer, 6 rods and pistons, crack, flywheel and clutch prob weighting 25 or more kg trying to stop all of a sudden/instant.If you know how a fly press works it the same as a running engine thats hydraulic locked when running. Its going to be a shit load more force than 250nm requided to stop that thing spinning in a millisecond. Probably not even 10000nm would stop it spinning that quickly.
Your not making a very valid response. Competely different situation.You keep talking about 250nm. Its not much 180ftlb. It isn't a very large amount of force and it a torsional force.A motor makes its torque by the arm leverage on the crank and the piston area. That where they create their torque. Doesn't matter if its spinning or stationary. Force is force. A rod compresses and stretches in each cycle and I'm talking about the compression force on the rod. They can take several tons. Its never going to bend or break undoing a little flywheel bolt.Your only going to bend a rod in a vice because you were stupid enough not to clamp it in the right position. Of coarse it would bent. What did you think would happen? Never been silly enough to do it. Their designed for compression/tension. Not torsion!I'm not in for any keyboard warrior stuff it just you don't seem to understand what your talking about. From what I have experienced with people I know, tradeschool is as good as useless these day at teaching. Only teaching the basics . I know a few mechanics that have a lack of knowledge in basic engineering principles.You might need to do a little reading or night school in engineering to freshen up your understanding of recipricating piston engines and the forces acting on them before posting again.Its simple! Guys at work had a laugh when I told them what you wrote. Yes you can do it your way but there is more than one way in life. Don't get blinded..From your previous posts my left testicle is more than safe for the mean time. Just hanging there with it bro safely.I don't really have the time to argue with yo any more. Do what you like. I just hope people think twice before doing things like this. I never said 'there's a 100% chance you will break something', all I am pointing out is that it's never a good idea to put anything into a cylinder that isn't supposed to be there. You might have no issues, ever, but for the home mechanic who is already bound to make a lot of small mistakes while trying to fix his own car, it is a very bad idea. It's just one more thing that can go wrong. You might have spent time as an Aero Engineer but it is completely different working on piston engines.Just because you have done so, doesn't mean you are unable to make errors. And even if you can do it your way and not make a mistake, does not mean this guy will do the same and get away with it. There is a simpler and safer way to do it.In answer to your question re. oil - the reason I mentioned it is because when the engine is creating torque, there is oil between the bearing and journal, right? well when the engine is stopped, there is little oil there to protect the bearing surface from micro bruising. Your argument of an RB20 and it's torque at 8500rpm is void as it has sufficient oil to protect it while it is rotating. Your comment after mine said:'Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it.'If YOU read back over what I said, you will notice that I was explaining that what you are doing is applying force to a bearing with no oil to protect it. Here it is so you don't have to scroll down:'Do not suggest people put things down cylinders and are you aware of the kind of force you are applying to the rod, gudgeon pin and big end bearing? All with no oil to protect it'I don't need to attend night school. Maybe you should stick to aeroplanes." in a hurry.
Wow, this thread went from "need step by step info on how to remove rb20det flywheel" to "Sorry mate have to beg to differ.... What qualifications/calcuations are you basing your comments on?If you don't have the adapter or an air compressor the rope it the way to go to hold valves up.The force to crack the flywheel bolts is going to be a lot less than a rb20 spinning at 8500rpm with 20psi jambed down the cylinder. Bend a rod with less than a few hundered lb force pushing directly down on. Yeh right. Shear a gudgeon pin. Good luck you'll never manage it with the small amount of pressure. Piston will be damaged before the pin. If the big end bearings have taken many times the cracking torque of the flywheel bolts for hundereds of housands of km's at 3500rpm I think it would be more than safe.Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it. Anyway there would still be residual oil in there. What do you think happens the instant your car engine fires but also its spinning producing heat in the mix. I'd be safe in guessing you could put over 2 tons force in a press on a rb20 rods and it still wouldn't bend.We alway feed different objects into cylinders after doing valve reams without removing the head to guide the valves back into the guides. A piece of rope. Seriously mate what is a piece of rope going to do? Expecially when it gets pulled out anyway. What a stupid idea? When have you ever pressed on steel with rope and damaged it?I don't know it all but would bet my left testical that there is now way in hell any damage is going to be done and if you have been silly enough to leave/drop bits down the cylinder of an engine before like other car workshops have over the years maybe only you shouldn't be working on engines. You seem very scared of objects in engines!!! I've never left anything in an engine and there worth a fair bit more than a piston engine. So don't see the problem.Flywheel bolts aren't a big torque. A corroded on harmonic balancer bolt which takes a 2 metre pole with the weight of a man hanging on it your comments might be valid. But only the damaging bearings point or as extra I would have said the piston. Not the gudgeon pin (shear force) or rod (compression).Just having a dig because I hate it when people on forums big not themselves when a person states a valid point backed up by another user that does the job and would work safely. People commonly use 3/4 inch rattle guns on the harmonic balacer bolts. I'd imagine you would have a lot more chance of damaging bearings that way with the sudden impact through the engine but I doubt this would do anything either compared to the massive forces within an engine. Are they fkn idiots too?Could you please tell me the forces after making this comment "are you aware of the kind of force you are applying". Are you? I know its not much mate and a pretty simple calculation.Can you tell them if I'm such a fkn idiot and don't know! Make them aware of this massive danger!QUOTE (Rowdyr32 @ 30 Mar 2010, 09:38 PM) *Sorry mate have to beg to differ.... What qualifications/calcuations are you basing your comments on?f you don't have the adapter or an air compressor the rope it the way to go to hold valves up.The force to crack the flywheel bolts is going to be a lot less than a rb20 spinning at 8500rpm with 20psi jambed down the cylinder. Bend a rod with less than a few hundered lb force pushing directly down on. Yeh right. Shear a gudgeon pin. Good luck you'll never manage it with the small amount of pressure. Piston will be damaged before the pin. If the big end bearings have taken many times the cracking torque of the flywheel bolts for hundereds of housands of km's at 3500rpm I think it would be more than safe.Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it. Anyway there would still be residual oil in there. What do you think happens the instant your car engine fires but also its spinning producing heat in the mix. I'd be safe in guessing you could put over 2 tons force in a press on a rb20 rods and it still wouldn't bend.We alway feed different objects into cylinders after doing valve reams without removing the head to guide the valves back into the guides. A piece of rope. Seriously mate what is a piece of rope going to do? Expecially when it gets pulled out anyway. What a stupid idea? When have you ever pressed on steel with rope and damaged it?I don't know it all but would bet my left testical that there is now way in hell any damage is going to be done and if you have been silly enough to leave/drop bits down the cylinder of an engine before like other car workshops have over the years maybe only you shouldn't be working on engines. You seem very scared of objects in engines!!! I've never left anything in an engine and there worth a fair bit more than a piston engine. So don't see the problem. Flywheel bolts aren't a big torque. A corroded on harmonic balancer bolt which takes a 2 metre pole with the weight of a man hanging on it your comments might be valid. But only the damaging bearings point or as extra I would have said the piston. Not the gudgeon pin (shear force) or rod (compression).Just having a dig because I hate it when people on forums big not themselves when a person states a valid point backed up by another user that does the job and would work safely. People commonly use 3/4 inch rattle guns on the harmonic balacer bolts. I'd imagine you would have a lot more chance of damaging bearings that way with the sudden impact through the engine but I doubt this would do anything either compared to the massive forces within an engine. Are they fkn idiots too?Could you please tell me the forces after making this comment "are you aware of the kind of force you are applying". Are you? I know its not much mate and a pretty simple calculation.Can you tell them if I'm such a fkn idiot and don't know! Make them aware of this massive danger!To start with my qualification is as a mechanic.he torque an RB20 creates at 8500rpm with 20psi shoved in is balanced and the mass is rotating. It isn't having something jam up against it to stop it moving. The torque of 155nm is to be applied to the flywheel bolt when it is installed, add 10 or 20 years of heat and micro welding of metals and the torque required to crack that bolt would be at least 250nm. The engine running, with oil coating the bearing surface, does not have 250nm of torque pushing one way while it tries to fire the piston the other way. Have you ever built an engine? I'm guessing not. Are you aware that you can bend a rod in a vice just by torquing the big end bolts down?Are you aware that it only takes a small microscopic crack in the bearing surface (caused by the metals touching) to f**k it?To add to that, I never said oil was protecting the stationary part, I said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. So instead of getting all keyboard warrior on me, read first.Maybe putting rope down a cylinder works for you for doing valves. The only harm there is that there is an easier and safer way to do it without shoving foreign objects inside your cylinder. But you are suggesting applying torque against the stopped piston, not just holding the valve up.Ever pulled apart an engine that has hydraulic locked? I haveEver pulled apart an engine that hydraulic locked at idle? I haveEver seen a rod with a 0.004 bend in it from such a hydraulic lock? I have Does your magic RB20 make 250nm of torque at idle? No it doesn't.I'm not big noting myself and you never made a valid point. All you did is mention that is the method you use.I am not telling you to stop doing it. I am telling you to stop suggesting other people do it. It is a stupid idea. YES STUPID! IDEA!1. to put foreign objects into your cylinder and2. to jam a piston while applying torque to either end of the enginet's also a bit silly to bet your left testicle. I might collect on that.You might be a mechanic. Nice and I hope you enjoy it. I'm not a job knocker if people enjoy it. As for myself.. I've spent one year as a diesel mechanic. 8 years as a AME working on all aspects of Rolls Royce 250 series gas turbine engines from strip all the way down/inspect/assemble then dynoing them. These engines were worth between $350000 to $650000 depending on model. Completed 3 crash investigations with Rolls Royce America investigators and ATSB finally ending up as leading hand teaching guys twice my age and industy time. I also have a level 2 licence in non destructive testing in both magentic particle and dye penetrant. I know how metals behave in different heat and stress situations and how they crack. Also spent a few months before quiting as the head dyno operator for DSI (Borg Warners R&D centre). I'm currently contracting a licenced aircraft maintenance engineer on R22's up to multi million dollar AS350B3's and BK's. We've had heaps of piston engines apart and together. Nothing to them mate.The difference is in my trade if it stops or breaks it could cost a big $ part or worst case somebody could die. Hope this never happens. So far in my 10 years aviation experiance I haven't made any major mistakes. Nothing has ever stopped or broken. Touch wood. They just doesn't stop on the side of the road.I know air is easier. Thats what we use at work when removing the rockers.As for the oil comment you said "Do not suggest people put things down cylinders and are you aware of the kind of force you are applying to the rod, gudgeon pin and big end bearing? All with no oil to protect it. It's a f**king stupid idea and if anyone does it, they need their frickin head examined."What does "all with no oil to protect it" mean then? Why did you mention it? Maybe you need to read your own writing.I've pulled apart a hydraulic'd diesel a mate stupidly tried tow starting a 4x4 after putting it on its side. 3 bent rods. So I've pulled apart a stationary hydraulic locked motor. Would have had a lot more than 4thou bent it them and they were diesel rods! Doesn't mean anything. Not really. What your talking about with a running motor is completely different.If the engine hydraulic'd at idle it was spinning at atleast 850rpm. Thats a lot of force with the harmonic balacer, 6 rods and pistons, crack, flywheel and clutch prob weighting 25 or more kg trying to stop all of a sudden/instant.If you know how a fly press works it the same as a running engine thats hydraulic locked when running. Its going to be a shit load more force than 250nm requided to stop that thing spinning in a millisecond. Probably not even 10000nm would stop it spinning that quickly. Your not making a very valid response. Competely different situation.You keep talking about 250nm. Its not much 180ftlb. It isn't a very large amount of force and it a torsional force.A motor makes its torque by the arm leverage on the crank and the piston area. That where they create their torque. Doesn't matter if its spinning or stationary. Force is force. A rod compresses and stretches in each cycle and I'm talking about the compression force on the rod. They can take several tons. Its never going to bend or break undoing a little flywheel bolt.Your only going to bend a rod in a vice because you were stupid enough not to clamp it in the right position. Of coarse it would bent. What did you think would happen? Never been silly enough to do it. Their designed for compression/tension. Not torsion!I'm not in for any keyboard warrior stuff it just you don't seem to understand what your talking about. From what I have experienced with people I know, tradeschool is as good as useless these day at teaching. Only teaching the basics . I know a few mechanics that have a lack of knowledge in basic engineering principles.You might need to do a little reading or night school in engineering to freshen up your understanding of recipricating piston engines and the forces acting on them before posting again.Its simple! Guys at work had a laugh when I told them what you wrote. Yes you can do it your way but there is more than one way in life. Don't get blinded..From your previous posts my left testicle is more than safe for the mean time. Just hanging there with it bro safely.I don't really have the time to argue with yo any more. Do what you like. I just hope people think twice before doing things like this. I never said 'there's a 100% chance you will break something', all I am pointing out is that it's never a good idea to put anything into a cylinder that isn't supposed to be there. You might have no issues, ever, but for the home mechanic who is already bound to make a lot of small mistakes while trying to fix his own car, it is a very bad idea. It's just one more thing that can go wrong. You might have spent time as an Aero Engineer but it is completely different working on piston engines.Just because you have done so, doesn't mean you are unable to make errors. And even if you can do it your way and not make a mistake, does not mean this guy will do the same and get away with it. There is a simpler and safer way to do it.In answer to your question re. oil - the reason I mentioned it is because when the engine is creating torque, there is oil between the bearing and journal, right? well when the engine is stopped, there is little oil there to protect the bearing surface from micro bruising. Your argument of an RB20 and it's torque at 8500rpm is void as it has sufficient oil to protect it while it is rotating. Your comment after mine said:'Lubrication isn't going to protect anything so I don't think you really have that much of an idea on how oil is going to protect a stationary part with such a small amount of force on it.'If YOU read back over what I said, you will notice that I was explaining that what you are doing is applying force to a bearing with no oil to protect it. Here it is so you don't have to scroll down:'Do not suggest people put things down cylinders and are you aware of the kind of force you are applying to the rod, gudgeon pin and big end bearing? All with no oil to protect it'I don't need to attend night school. Maybe you should stick to aeroplanes." in a hurry.