proengines

Yep Sumo, there is actually an engine reconditioning trade certificate now but you will find most people working in engine machine shops are fitter/machinists or mechanics who have learnt on the job. The fitting and machining course doesn't teach anything about engines but the machining principles are the same for any piece of metal.

Those pictures make sense, thats a similar setup towhat some of the Cat diesels use, a flanged sleeve that sits on the surface of the block and a spacer plate. I just looked at otomoto.com.au and these kits are $26,000? Now the machining to fit the sleeves is fairly basic if you have the equipment. We do it regularly to all type of engines. The spacer could quite easily be CNC machined from a slab of cast iron, we have a guy who does our torque plates and all we need to do it supply a cad drawing. We can have sleeves made in almost any size or shape, crankshaft rebuilders can make a billet couterweighted crank or you could use an RB30 crank to save some money. Argo or PAR can make custom rods any size and length and you could use an off the shelf RB26 piston. Head studs could be ARP 22R toyota or similar which are the same thread as an RB26 but longer and ARP make main studs for the 26. A cometic MLS head gasket isn't too dear either. Either powerbond or romac make a billet steel harmonic balancer for the 26 now. All in all it would make an interesting project.

How many engines would be missing their cam belt covers if adjustable timing gears were matt poo brown rather than pretty anodised purple or blue or gold?

I've just been reading this thread and it got me wondering. I went up to the workshop and measured up a 26 block, measuring between cylinders 1 & 2 there is 10.65mm. If the sleeve was 5mm wall thickness there would only be .65mm between the 2 sleeves and the entire cylinder between the deck surface and the base of the water jackets would be removed boring out for the sleeves as the bores look to be around the 4-4.5mm mark thick which makes no sense the block would lose a lot of its stability. I did a search on google image search and the only photo is the stock photo that the resellers use to advertise the kits. I enlarged the photo and the sleeves look as though they have a flange on the top. The spacer plate also looks to have a counterbore in it to accept the flange. It would make sense if this flange was 5mm wall thickness and the rest of the sleeve a 2-3mm wall thickness. this would leave the parent bore pretty much in place and the flange would locate the sleeve and stop it pulling through. I'd say the sleeve is a press fit at least in the original block to locate it properly and enable heat transfer to the cooling system. It also means the flanges would not overlap when the counterbores are machined. I'm not sure about cooling, maybe the bottom of the plate has a cooling channel cast or machined into it to let some coolant run around the top of the bores. I'm also not sure what seals the spacer plate to the block, maybe a viton coated shim gasket or maybe a chemical sealant. This is really a lot of guessing without any hard facts to base it on but it might help. Does anyone have photos of a finished OS Giken block that they could upload?

I'm in total agreement, dont take the risk, they are the most highly stressed bolt in an engine. We replace them even in standard reconditioned engines.

Adel, Going off the sizes that you have given it's more than likely that the crank has a bend in it. usually, if the crank needs to go .5mm undersize on the main journals it's because when it is set up in the machine running true on #1 and #7 main, #4 is running too far out to clean up at the first undersize. This happens quite often when a conrod bearing spins and the conrod journal gets very hot. It also means that you will end up with some conrod throws having extra stroke, if the mains have to go .5mm undersize, the extra stroke on a few cylinders could be up to almost .5mm which is bad for your engine. Ask the machine shop if it is bent, or if the crank is already ground, ask them to check the stroke on each conrod throw. If either the crank is bent or the strokes are different on each conrod journal after grinding, throw the crank away and get another, it will save you troubles in the future and make a much nicer engine. you will be able to see if the crank had the bend ground out of it when you assemble it as the pistons will protrude more in the centre cylinders. The other problem with going that far undersize is that you will be coming pretty close to grinding through the case hardening on the journals or even worse, on part of the journals.

I've just been reading through this thread and well done John, I hope the plenums are a good seller. It suprises me though, some people are very quick to knock something without trying it. One thing that always suprises me is that with anything made for a car, some people will call it overpriced based on the cost of the materials to build it without taking into account the time that is spent designing, developing and tooling up to produce it. It seems to be a pretty common comment "that couldnt cost more than $XXX to make." Some of would be suprised how much it costs just to open the doors of your workshop each day before you make any profit. The same people who complain about the price of this type of stuff compared to the cost of material in it are the ones who will go out and buy a playstation game of piece of software for $80 that costs about $1 to produce once the development is done or pay $150 for a Nismo gear knob or HKS oil cap that is $2.50 worth of alloy with a 20c sticker on top.

Gareth, with most new billets your clearances are going to be very close as the base circle is the same as STD so you probably can get away without changing many shims at all. Most of the time you will only need to adjust by .001-.002 and can usually swap shims around to do it so you might not need to buy any shims at all. I agree, if you're doing all the work yourself you will save money using regrinds. I'm thinking of it from the position of doing the job for someone and them paying me the labour to do it at an hourly rate. The other thing that might be worth considering is just fitting an exhaust cam with more lift and duration, say 256 duration and 9.1mm lift. It will up the exhaust flow which is a little low percentage wise compared to the inlet and will give you a noticeable improvement.

Mahle are a German company. Mahle motorsports are based in the US. Price depends on which piston but the Pro Series are around the $1800 mark from memory. Mahle owns ACL piston products so they should be available from National Parts. I've seen pictures of the RB26 pistons in D-sports magazine (US) so they definately make them. The rep dropped in last week and had a new piston they are making for the EJ20 Subaru and it's a nice bit of gear. they are forged, skirt coated, radiused on all the square edges and have radial gas ports. The pistons also only run around .003" clearance which is nice for ring stability and noise. They look totally different to other brands of piston, they are a very dark grey colour and use the Mahle box-n-box design. Mahle supply 4 out of 7 F1 engine manufacturers plus Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, BMW plus quite a few Nascar, IRL, V8 supercars etc.. so thats a fair indication of their quality. Saying all that, as I said, we have never had a failure with either JE or Wiseco. One engine with Wiseco's has been running 2bar boost for over 2 years now without a piston letting go.

For what it's worth, we've used both JE and Wiseco and never had a problem with either. Don't forget to look at Mahle, they're pretty top end but I would use them over either.

Unless you're able to set the tappets yourself, the money you save on regrinding as opposed to new cams is not really worth it. For a start, timewise, you will need to remove the cams and send them away to be ground, say 1 week return and $220+freight, then whatever comes off the base circle radius of the cam will need to be added to the thickness of the shim. This means you will need to refit the cams, measure shims and calculate the thickness of the new shims required, then order new shims. Shims will cost $15 or so each+freight, so 24x$15=$360 and that's if you get it right the first time. This is assuming you already have the tools to do it, including a micrometer and feeler gauges. Thats up to $600 or so without any labour. This gives you a set of reground cams with questionable hardness, especially on the transition from the base circle to the opening and closing ramps plus a set of shims around 1mm thicker that are slightly heavier plus the buckets will be sitting further out of the bores in the head which may or may not increase wear on the bucket bores. Add to this that you won't be able to have near the range of profiles that are available on new billets. You can have the old cams welded and reground but it really doesn't end up any cheaper than new billet cams and takes quite a while to do. If there was nothing else available it's worth doing but when there is I can't see a benefit. Compare that to a pair of new billets, from around the $1200 mark from memory for Tomei or $1450 or so for HKS in a range of profiles that run the same base circle as standard so setting tappets is going to be quite an easy job, most will more than likely be within tolerances, you can fit them in 1 day and your car isn't off the road waiting for parts. Add to that you can probably sell your old STD cams for $200 to someone who wants to play with an RB20 or 25 and the cost difference is pretty negligible, especially if you're paying someone to fit them. Also, if you ever plan to sell your car, brand name cams are a good selling point compared to regrinds. Theres nothing really wrong with regrinding cams for most engines where you have easy valve clearance adjustment and it's quite cheap to have done but in an engine with shim adjustment where new billet cams are available it's false economy in my opinion.

oops.. thats why I said dont quote me. I'll check it out today and let you know.

gawdzilla- I think the main studs are part #202-4206, dont quote me on that, but its pretty close. I can check up if you need. you may need to have the block tunnel honed as the studs clamp a bit tighter, it's a matter of bolt it up and measure. Carlos, in my opinion, if the rings aren't bedded in within the first 500-1000 or so km they never will. once they are bedded in there is no reason not to use synthetic oil. The biggest problem with bedding in is the bores not being round and the rings running on high bits of the bore and missing other bits, thats why we torque plate hone them. I like the idea of a RB30 twin cam, good torque, its a compromise, it may not hit the revs a 26 will but then it doesn't need to to make the same power. It's one of those things that a lot of people are either for or against, I'll sit on the fence, both have their benefits.

All of nissans RB engines run a main cradle and all of them use 10mm dia main bolts.

No engine that makes anywhere near 350hp/litre is going to last as long as one that makes 130hp/litre, so you're not going to get the same life as a standard engine would. In reality you are probably not going to get 10% of the engine life. At similar hp figures, the 3litre will last longer as it's not spinning as fast to pump the same amount of air. The RB30 crank is the same material as a 26 crank and the same design, just a longer stroke and slightly bigger diameter conrod journals. The longer rod and taller deck puts less thrust load on the piston and bore. The block on a 26 does have some more ribbing but personally, I havent seem a 30 block crack in the areas where the 26 has extra ribs. The only cracks I have seen in either (apart from an engine that has had something break inside it) is around the head bolt holes on an RB26, I haven't seen this on a 30. I would be interested in seeing how an RB30 cooling system would work if the block was filled so it had the same cooling volume as a 26 as this would make the bores a lot stiffer. I'd also be interested to see how a 26 crank would work in a 30 block as it would give you a much higher rod:stroke ratio,around 2:1 which in any engine should give you better cylinder filling and more peak power. Finally though, any engine that makes 1000hp does so at the detriment of torque and driveability, it might look good on a dyno but a power curve that is smooth and parabolic from a fairly low engine speed will be a quicker car on the street that one that has a near vertical power curve starting at 6k rpm. The bigger the area under the curve, the better overall package it will be, remember, on the street you dont have VHT or slicks and sometimes it rains.

The conrods are the same in both, the pistons, camshaft and oil pump are the only internal differences from memory.

Alf, if you o-ring the block, you are better off cutting a reciever groove in the head for the gasket to push up into, the o-ring is 1mm dia and protrudes .4mm, the reciever groove is around 2mm wide and .2mm deep. this stops the gasket from being held away from the block by the o-ring and seeping water or oil. Copper gaskets seal compression really well in conjunction with an o-ring but aren't crash hot at sealing water or oil as they really dont compress, thats why you need to use a silicone sealant on them. A very low Ra (roughness average) surface finish on the block and head in necessary to prevent coolant tracking along the machining marks on the surfaces, thats why you should use PCD (polycrystaline diamond) cutters on the alloy head and CBN (cubic boron nitride) cutters on the block, they leave the finest surface finish. For a street/occasional drag/track day engine running in the 20's boost wise I would use an MLS gasket as they are better at sealing water and oil but a copper gasket and o-ring will ultimately seal compression better in extreme cases. It's really a matter of what a customer wants and if they are prepared to put up with a little crusty coolant sitting around the sides of the head gasket which you occasionally get with copper gaskets. Greg.

Finally.. Any questions let me know.

Some more...

Some more..

here are some photos, hopefully they will run from one end of the operation through to the other. There are some jobs that i didn't have photos sitting around for but I'll try to dig some up. I hope it doesn't look like I'm trying to hijack this thread, i'm really not. Geoff, it's good to see someone who is worried about the environment, it's amazing how much stuff we have arrive at the workshop that people have degreased on their driveway and the oil etc.. has run into the stormwater, it's a real shame. That's a pretty good deal too, it's a good couple of hours work to clean it all up properly before assembly, maybe we should offer the same. The photos are attached 10 at a time as that seems to be the limit.

Here are some pics of different bits and pieces, I can't say it's a definative start to finish operation but it gives a fair idea, hopefully the photos will show up. http://www.proengines.com.au/rb26/1-bore-tp.JPG

Sorry for the slow reply, I've dug through some photos and found some for most parts of the process, will shrink them down but there is still a lot of photos, does anyone mind a really long post with heaps of pics? As for running in, my preference would be to fill the engine with a mineral straight 30w or similar and start it, run it up to temp, take it for a short drive and then dump it out and change the filter as well, refill it with the same and take it for a decent drive, lug it a little up some hills being careful not to have it ping. After 500-800km, drain the oil and change the filter and fill it with a good synthetic, something like Motul 5W40 or similar. It's a good idea not to keep it at a constant revs for long periods, for example, a trip to Sydney staying at the speed limit, it's good to vary the engine speed a fair bit. Change the oil and filter every 5000km, it's pretty cheap insurance compared to the money spent doing the engine to start with. I'd always use a synthetic oil once the engine is run in. When the block is honed using a torque plate the bores are spot on round and the rings take very little time to bed in so running in is not as big an issue. An engine that is finished without a torque plate is pretty easy to spot, towards the top of the bore you will see 4 areas where there is a different wear patern, these are in line with the head bolts and the different wear is because as the head bolts are tightened they pull the bore very slightly out of shape and the rings don't seal properly in these spots. One thing you do need to be very careful of is fuel mixtures, too rich and the bores will have the oil washed off them and the bores will glaze up, too lean and the rings will overheat and lose their spring. Bad tuning will kill a good engine very quickly. Detonation is the biggest killer of turbo engines so it's worth spending the money having it tuned by someone who does know what they are doing. No matter how much you spend on parts they still will fail if the tuning is not right.

I'd have to say that compared to what is around today, as an engine the RB's aren't particularly advanced. For starters, a cast iron block is very 1980's, the crank isn't fully counterweighted, the main cradle is bolted on with the same bolts as a datsun 1200 uses etc.. but saying that, it is very strong. Also, for when it was designed it was very advanced. The head is brilliant for when it was designed and capable of big power, I don't understand though why Nissan didn't flatten the valve angle a tad, make the combustion chamber a bit shallower and run less of a dome on the pistons, Id say it would burn better with less chance of detonation if it was. Something similar to an SR20 or EJ20 subaru is a nicer piston/chamber combo. Machining and assembly wise, we do spend a fair bit of time on them, you just cant afford to have a problem because people drive them pretty hard and it's an expensive job to pull them out and fix them. Having engines blow up is also a pretty good way to guarantee you wont get many more to do as well. Basics below: Block- strip, chemical clean, remove oil gallery plugs, CBN mill deck surface to set piston heights, bore and hone with a torque plate and main cradle tensioned, check mail tunnels and tunnel hone if needed, remove casting dags. Crank- remove oil gallery plugs and tap for screw in plugs, check for size and straightness, micropolish, balance. I prefer not to grind them as there is a chance of grinding through the case hardening . I suppose you can have it rehardened but I'd prefer to replace the crank if it was that bad. Rods- I prefer to replace them with an aftermarket rod, it's pretty cheap insurance. Otherwise, the STD rods crack tested, beam polished, shot peened, ARP bolts, closed and honed, new small end bushes, balanced. With new rods, we check the tunnel sizes and hone the rods to achieve the proper bearing crush and clearances, the small ends usually need to be honed to suit the pins being used. Balance the rods to +/- .1g both big and small end. Oil pump- Replace if worn, otherwise clean, reassemble and fit new relief valve and spring. Head- depends on the customer, but at least chem clean, check straightness, pressure test, soda blast, new exhaust guides, 3 angle or raduis valve seats in Serdi machine, reface valves, PCD mill head face, reassemble with new springs, set tappets. Other work depends on what the customer wants, we do a fair bit of porting and it's a shame not to port the head, especially an RB26 as you can get quite substantial gains in a relatively short time. We've played with them on the flowbench and 15-20cfm is pretty easy to pick up. I'm currently doing some testing for one of our suppliers with some stainless 1mm oversize head valves. They have a slightly undercut stem and a lot nicer finish than the STD valves, along with a nice profile so they should show some good gains. We also mill the sides of the bucket bores to clear the cam lobes if high lift cams are fitted. Pistons- Measure, debur any sharp edges, clean, especially in pin bores as they usually still have honing grit in them. Parts- Pistons- forged, very cheap insurance. Brands are much of a muchness, we've used Wiseco, ACL/Ross, Venolia, JE, Arias, CP, SPS and a couple of others. If I had to choose for my own I'd use Wiseco but thats just a personal preference. Venolias are a bit noisy but I've never seen one broken, they use a lower silicone alloy to most other piston makers and it is a little tougher but the noise is annoying. Rings- nothing that doesn't use a steel top ring. I'm still to be convinced that gapless rings are a huge benefit. Conrods- We've used Argo and REV. Both are good rods, I haven't used Crower yet in an RB but they are a nice bit of gear. The big end bore in the argos has been spot on, the REVs needed to be honed, this is because they finish them close to bottom size so the engine shop can hone them to set clearances, both needed the small ends honed for the same reason. Balance is good on both. Bearings- We use King, I'd rate them as the best but people have differing opinions. The king bearings are an alecular material and only run a thin coating of bearing material on a very hard backing. From seeing them after being used, they dont lose the spring in the backing even after being awfully hot. ACL race series bearings run a close second. I havent used Nismo bearings so I cant really comment, except that the price is pretty excessive. Gaskets- Genuine Nissan except for the head gasket, I rate the Cometic gaskets, three layers of stainless steel coated in a very thin layer of viton rubber and they fit perfectly around the bores, water holes etc. Valves- Genuine Nissan are top quality, Ferrea are better, Pep Pro are excellent. Springs- We use Performance Springs, great quality springs, made in Australia. Retainers/Locks- Genuine Nissan, although if it was a racing car running at big revs for a long time something titanium would be worth a look. Valve guides- Genuine guides work fine, I want to get bronze guides made but need to order them in the hundreds of each at $20 or so each so it's a lot of dollars to have sitting on the shelf waiting for heads to put them in. (anyone interested in a few sets?) Cams- We've used HKS and Tomei, both work well, same for cam gears. Sump baffles- we make our own, similar to the Jun baffles. Bolts/Studs- ARP main and head studs if the budget allows. Assembly- We assemble our engines in a room separate to the machine shop so you dont have machining dust floating about. Dummy assembly before machining the deck is worth doing to set the piston heights and check for any interference between parts, there's always the chance of it happening using aftermarket parts from different suppliers. Then lots of cleaning, we hot tank the block again after machining, brush out all the galleries, scrub with soapy water and a brush, then the white rag treatment in the bores and tunnels. We soda blast the alloy parts and wash them off with hot water and blow them dry. Measure piston to bore clearance for each piston and bore, measure ring gaps and file if necessary, fit bearings to block and conrods and measure tunnel sizes, sometimes even with new rods you need to hone them to achieve the proper clearances, clean and measure crank, again brush through oil galleries. Fit new oil gallery and welch plugs. We assemble all our engines with Nulon assembly lube on everything except the gudgeon pins and bores, we use 30w oil for that. Basically, once all the clearances are checked it's a matter of bolting the pieces together, we continue to check as we go. We use ARP assembly lube on the threads and under the heads of the bolts, this saves torque being wasted overcoming the friction and stretches the bolts so they clamp properly. We tension as we go and also give it a final once over before the sump is fitted. We use either three-bond or wurth grey silicone for the sump and rear seal housing, mainly because of the colour, I hate the look of orange or blue silicone squeezed out the sides of the sump etc.. We preassemble the heads and set tappet clearances/crush depending on what head it is. Then it's a matter of cleaning the block deck with carby clean to remove all oil, fit the head dowels & gasket and check for clearance around the bore, bolt the head on, tension it and then fit up the water pump, timing idler and tensioner, timing gears, Belt, covers etc.. followed by the accessories. The only difference is if we use a copper head gasket, we give the head and block a light smear of three-bond white motorcycle silicone to seal the water and oil, this is only on blocks that are o-ringed and the heads with receiver grooves cut. Lately, we have been using Cometic MLS head gaskets and from what I have seen so far they take as much punishment as a copper gasket but without the drawbacks in regards to coolant or oil seepage and there is no need to O-ring the block. It's kind of a disadvantage to us as we miss out on the labour for o-ringing the block but if they work better I'd prefer to use them. I think thats about it but I probably have missed something. I know this is pretty long winded but basically it's a matter of measure, measure, measure, clean, clean, clean, quality parts and a fair bit of time, rushing is a sure recipe for disaster. If you want any photos of particular processes let me know.

I have a machine shop and do quite a few RB's, if I can help with any questions you'd like to ask or photos of the machining operations etc.. let me know and I'll do what I can to help.