Loss Of License.. Question.

[Brett_A]

Hey guys,

Hopefully some of you guys can help me out here.

Today, I have been issued with a letter from the QLD transport, explaning I have lost my license.

I have two choices.

1. Good Behaviour driving - 1 point for 1 year.

2. Lose license for 3 months and after the 3 months. get my 4 point, full license back.

Iam leaning towards the option of losing my license for 3 months, because the chances of not being pulled over within a year in a sportish looking car is definatley slim.

One thing there I have to sort out, because of general problems with cops being pricks, which is why im currently in a dispute with them.

Now this is where my question arises, as I want to buy a certain skyline (GTR) on the market atm..

If I do choose to lose my license for 3 months, is there any rule or regulation which lets me drive a newely purchased car from the point where I have bought it from, back to my home/destination the car will be stored?

I hope this makes sense, im in a really bad mood atm as you could probabaly understand.

In case anyone is going to say I deserve it, assuming I gathered the points from speeding than please dont.

I did not get any of these points through speeding.

Cheers, Brett

Edited January 5, 2006 by Brett_A

[Sydneykid]

You lose your licence = you don't drive, it's that simple.

My suggestion is to pick one of the infringement notices (I assume that there is more than one) and appeal. There must be something that you can appeal against. It will cost you about $26 to lodge an appeal at the courthouse. The usual time for this to make it to court is 3 months. Maybe one of the other infringement notices will have expired on your points count by then. If not, ask for an adjournment because you need to gather evidence, find a witness, whatever. Keep doing that until the points count has expired.

When the time is right plead guilty, say you couldn't find the evidence you needed or the witness wouldn't come forward, whatever. All it will cost you is ~$60 in court costs, it doesn't matter how many times you stall.

First job is to take the notice you were sent and send it back but don't fill in either option. Attach a letter that states you are appealing one of the infringements. That usually takes them a couple of months to sort out.

A good number for stalling used to be 2 years and 1 month, that's why they changed the points tally to 3 years in NSW. Many cases were taking 2 years to get to court the first time and the points had expired by then.

Time is your friend and public servants have no sense of urgency, so use it against them.

cheers

Edited January 5, 2006 by Sydneykid

[madbung]

haha the money or the box hey...

I had the same option about 10 years back, what I figured out is if you take the 3 mths now and get your points back you'll also have a "suspension" on your driving record which is not good for insurance premiums or any driving related work you may do in the future.

I took the 12 mth demerit point extension which for me in victoria meant If I didn't incur another point within the next 12 mths alls good if I did get another point I was suspended for 12mths. I kept a sensible and vigilante attitude to my driving for those 12 mths and made it np's.

For me it wasn't a close choice, 3 mths suspension would have cost me my job @ the time and bugger having a suspension on my driving record.

Just keep it in your trousers so to speak for 12mths and you'll be fine

[Brett_A]

Just called Shannons insurance then, and they wont insure me with a modified GTR and an infringement notice.

[Freddy Kruger]

You lose your licence = you don't drive, it's that simple.

My suggestion is to pick one of the infringement notices (I assume that there is more than one) and appeal.  There must be something that you can appeal against.  It will cost you about $26 to lodge an appeal at the courthouse.  The usual time for this to make it to court is 3 months.  Maybe one of the other infringement notices will have expired on your points count by then.  If not, ask for an adjournment because you need to gather evidence, find a witness, whatever.  Keep doing that until the points count has expired.

When the time is right plead guilty, say you couldn't find the evidence you needed or the witness wouldn't come forward, whatever.  All it will cost you is ~$60 in court costs, it doesn't matter how many times you stall.

First job is to take the notice you were sent and send it back but don't fill in either option.  Attach a letter that states you are appealing one of the infringements.  That usually takes them a couple of months to sort out.

A good number for stalling used to be 2 years and 1 month, that's why they changed the points tally to 3 years in NSW.  Many cases were taking 2 years to get to court the first time and the points had expired by then.

Time is your friend and public servants have no sense of urgency, so use it against them.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoa, so you can keep driving and all that while its getting to court? and the points expire and your all good? thats pretty clever can it be done in Vic?

[Brett_A]

Yes, im also trying to understand how that works.

Do the points expire 1 calander year after they have been issued?

Would thast also count in QLD??

[madbung]

You lose your licence = you don't drive, it's that simple.

My suggestion is to pick one of the infringement notices (I assume that there is more than one) and appeal.  There must be something that you can appeal against.  It will cost you about $26 to lodge an appeal at the courthouse.  The usual time for this to make it to court is 3 months.  Maybe one of the other infringement notices will have expired on your points count by then.  If not, ask for an adjournment because you need to gather evidence, find a witness, whatever.  Keep doing that until the points count has expired.

When the time is right plead guilty, say you couldn't find the evidence you needed or the witness wouldn't come forward, whatever.  All it will cost you is ~$60 in court costs, it doesn't matter how many times you stall.

First job is to take the notice you were sent and send it back but don't fill in either option.  Attach a letter that states you are appealing one of the infringements.  That usually takes them a couple of months to sort out.

A good number for stalling used to be 2 years and 1 month, that's why they changed the points tally to 3 years in NSW.  Many cases were taking 2 years to get to court the first time and the points had expired by then.

Time is your friend and public servants have no sense of urgency, so use it against them.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm unsure of the current situation in Vic, but it used to be they could suspend your licence if you exceded your allocated demerit points over any 12 mth period or whatever period it was..cant remember (backdateable) regardless of whether old points have dropped off waiting for court dates ect, so it's the points you had @ the time of the offense you're contesting not what you have by the time you get to court that are taken into consideration...

Edited January 5, 2006 by madbung

[Sydneykid]

The points don't accrue from the date of the conviction, they accrue from the date of the offense. So all you have to do is to stall the court result until the points have expired, 1 year, 2 years, how ever long it is in your state.

Any points on contested offences/infringement notices don't appear on your records. That would be "guilty until proven innocent", which is unconstitutional in Australia where we have "innocent until proven guilty" rights.

The length of time for points accumulation is from the actual dates of the offences. The RTA wanted to change it so they could decide whether they wanted to use the date of the offense for one infringement and the date of the court result for the other. They tried this on in the District Court and lost. They then tested it all the way to the Supreme Court in NSW, they lost there twice. Then they introduced Double Demerit Points holiday periods, and that had to be the date of the offence. That's why NSW went to 3 year points accumulation. That was the only way they could avoid the court delay problems.

You need to find a legitimate reason for appealing (or pleading not guilty in the first place), at least one that COULD BE legitimate. It is pretty unusual to not find a hole somewhere in the process. Local Court Magistrates are pretty pushy and have a lot of discretion. But basically they have to follow the law, plus you can always appeal to the District Court, that costs $few more. The delay on that for non criminal items is always several months.

An example.........I was an expert witness in a case against a laser detected speeding offence. The Police Officer made a very small mistake in writing down the serial number of the laser on one of the 6 pieces of paper that the prosecution has to provide. That case was stalled long enough (8 months) for the driver to get off his 3 year P plates. Hence he avoided a licence suspension, one that would have stayed on his record forever.

As I said before, time is your best friend in this instance.

cheers

Edited January 5, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Amaru]

The points don't accrue from the date of the conviction, they accrue from the date of the offense.  So all you have to do is to stall the court result until the points have expired, 1 year, 2 years, how ever long it is in your state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure this still works? I know in ACT they have closed such loop holes and the penalty (after you have finished stalling) applies retrospectively to the points you had at the time of the offence (e.g. if you had 1 point left on your P's, its been 2 years, your now on 9 points full license, you will still lose it as you only had 1 point at the time of offence). Also if you plead/are found guilty when appealing offences, the judge has the option to increase the penalty at his discretion (which has been happening alot lately).

Not really worth it... take the 12 months/1 point and dont do anything stupid... if you do go the 3 month option and you get caught driving said GTR, you will be fined/charged for driving on a suspended license (and you can kiss driving for another 6+ months goodbye).

[someonestolecc]

I lost 8 or 9 points on my p plates - which would have been a loss of license and stalled till I got my silvers, took my points then... many years ago.

As far as I could tell in NSW the points are taken off at the time the guilty ruling comes about... so in the meantime you can drive.

I now consider myself a mature aged enthusiast.

Also, an interesting point I might add for those that don't know is that in NSW you only get your points back 3 years from the date of the last conviction, not each individual conviction.

[madbung]

Sure this still works? I know in ACT they have closed such loop holes and the penalty (after you have finished stalling) applies retrospectively to the points you had at the time of the offence (e.g. if you had 1 point left on your P's, its been 2 years, your now on 9 points full license, you will still lose it as you only had 1 point at the time of offence). Also if you plead/are found guilty when appealing offences, the judge has the option to increase the penalty at his discretion (which has been happening alot lately).

Not really worth it... take the 12 months/1 point and dont do anything stupid... if you do go the 3 month option and you get caught driving said GTR, you will be fined/charged for driving on a suspended license (and you can kiss driving for another 6+ months goodbye).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same down here (vic) Amaru, they look @ the demerit points you had at the time of the offense in conjunction with the offense before them, not what points you have when you arrive for your day in court 2 + years down the track and will suspend your licence retrospectively for the period in question(that of the offense in dispute) if found guilty or pleading guilty/no contest.

[Sydneykid]

Sure this still works? I know in ACT they have closed such loop holes and the penalty (after you have finished stalling) applies retrospectively to the points you had at the time of the offence (e.g. if you had 1 point left on your P's, its been 2 years, your now on 9 points full license, you will still lose it as you only had 1 point at the time of offence). Also if you plead/are found guilty when appealing offences, the judge has the option to increase the penalty at his discretion (which has been happening alot lately).

Not really worth it... take the 12 months/1 point and dont do anything stupid... if you do go the 3 month option and you get caught driving said GTR, you will be fined/charged for driving on a suspended license (and you can kiss driving for another 6+ months goodbye).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Magistrate/Judge can change fines if they are not prescribed, but almost all traffic offences are prescribed and agreed by parliament. The Magistrate can increase or decrease the fine within a range if that offence has a prescribed range. For example the fine might be min $500 and max $1500. If you get fined $500, appeal and lose he can increase it up to the $1500 max but he can't go over that. But he has to justify the increase based on the severity of the offence, appealing and loosing is not grounds for increasing a fine. If he gives that reason then you have grounds for an appeal and that means another chance at delaying.

Most traffic offences have a single prescribed amount, it is only the really bad ones (drink driving, dangerous driving etc) that have ranges. The Government removed the discretion from Magistrates/Judges a long time ago because they wanted the extra revenue.

There are two issues here, the first is the law and you are relying on that up to a point. But the BIG thing you are depending on is the slackness of the public service and the huge amount of fines processed daily. Due to the volume (caused mostly by speed cameras) infringement notice issuing and points counting is done by computer, it automatically issues the letters, untouched or seen by human hands.

The law says that the points are not allowed to be counted until you are found guilty, the constitution guarantees that. The date of the offence is what is input into the computer, so it won't issue a licence cancellation if that date has expired. It won't cancel a Full licence unless the points are enough at that point in time. Anything else would require human intervention and that simply doesn't happen, unless it is one of those high profile offences. A couple of minor infringments won't even hit the radar.

Once again if you do get your licence suspended retrospectively for something that happened when you where a P plater, then you appeal. Legally you can argue that they can't take your licence off you today for an offence that wouldn't have your licence revoked if that offence was actually committed today. Retrospectivity in law is heavily frowned upon.

Don't get a solicitor involved unless you have the money to spend. Lodging apeals is easy and cheap, it's only when you need to win the case do you need a solicitor. If you are playing the time game, then it is pretty cheap to stall around for a year or so.

cheers

Edited January 5, 2006 by Sydneykid

[The Baron]

Take the 12 months - it'll teach you to be a better driver.

I had to hold my load for 12 moths once (couldn't lose the licence - would have meant the job) and it really teaches you to be very aware of the road and road rules. Consequently I have accrued very very few points since that time.

Definitely a learning experience :-)

[Amaru]

Once again if you do get your licence suspended retrospectively for something that happened when you where a P plater, then you appeal.  Legally you can argue that they can't take your licence off you today for an offence that wouldn't have your licence revoked if that offence was actually committed today.  Retrospectivity in law is heavily frowned upon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats why I asked if you were sure... I know in ACT it does apply retrospectively (a cheap trick used to be if you were on your P's, do your P-Off course which gave you an extra 4 points... a few people did this after the trick had been around for a few years, and they lost their license because at the time of the offence they only had 1 point left). Seems to vary between states, but I do know 100% thats the way it works in ACT

[Brett_A]

I thnk im Iam going to appeal the not indicating one.

Recently I had to get my indicators/wipers fuse fixed by an auto electrician as they would only work every so often..

This would then bring the demerit points from that event down to 1 point(defective vehicle) instead of 2, meaing the demerits would only be 4(1 of the 4 im already contesting).

This then means 3 points, and my points on my lisence then turn over on the 18th of this month.

Hopefully it all works out and they only put it down to defective!!

Edited January 5, 2006 by Brett_A

[Sydneykid]

Thats why I asked if you were sure... I know in ACT it does apply retrospectively (a cheap trick used to be if you were on your P's, do your P-Off course which gave you an extra 4 points... a few people did this after the trick had been around for a few years, and they lost their license because at the time of the offence they only had 1 point left). Seems to vary between states, but I do know 100% thats the way it works in ACT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How was it applied?

1. Did you get a note a few weeks later in the mail?

2. Did the note have dates on it eg; licences suspended from XX/XX/XX to YY/YY/YY. They are not legally entitled to say "for 3 months" and not give a start and finish date.

3. Or did the Magistrate take it off you at the time of the guilty decision?

4. What dates did the Magistrates written ruling have on it?

If #1, you write back and say that you are now a full licence holder and that they have made a mistake. They will take about a month to get back to you, in the interim the clock is ticking because they specified dates. At the same time you lodge an appeal at the local court house so that you can continue driving. By the time they sort out the paperwork, and get a court date allocated the 3 months will be long gone.

If #3, you lodge an appeal with the District Court at the desk before you leave the courthouse. You can continue driving pending the appeal. You will be advised of a District Court date by mail about 2 weeks later, if the date is inside the licence suspension period then ask for another date. Then cancel the appeal after the suspension period is over but before the court date. You may get asked why you cancelled the appeal, the usual reason is "could not afford the legal fees".

Either way the suspension period has passed and you have kept on driving. Sometimes they pick this up and try a date change on you. But if it was #3 they can't without going back to court to get the Magistrate to change his ruling. That's a lot of paperwork that public servants don't want to do, so it slips by.

If #1 then you go through the process again and appeal on the grounds that it has been 3 years since you committed the offence and you have a clean driving record. Mostly it would be unduly harsh to punish you now for something that happened so long ago. Most Magistrates sympathise and wave the suspension.

The 3 months or so of not driving is inconsequential. The REAL reason you are doing this is to avoid the permanent record that says that you have had your licence suspended. Otherwise it will cost you thousands of dollars in extra insurance for the rest of your life. So it is well worth a few minutes of appeal writing.

cheers

PS; the rule is to always plead not guilty at every possible opportunity. The whole system of fines arriving in the mail issued by computers relies on people mindlessly handing oevr the money. If just 5% of all people sent infringement notices pleaded not guilty, the system of revenue raising would fail.

[Mr Italy!]

You dont have a friend that can drive your newly purchased GTR home and let it sit in the garage for 3 months while waiting for the licence to return... gives you 3 months of working on the car, getting it up to spec before you first get to drive it.

I know i'd take that option coz there is no way you arent going to speed ONCE in a whole year while driving your GTR. Be realistic. I dont mean to speed at times yet it still happens if im not concentrating hard enough on the speedo... i just havent been unlucky enough to get caught. If your unlucky enough to get caught speeding with 1 point you're gonna be stuck in the loop of licence suspension for a long time, and you can kiss any cheap insurance goodbye.

[ylwgtr2]

well if they didnt send out the letter registered mail......maybe you didnt get it......and was none the wiser and kept driving while your 3mnths is ticking over......its a silly system really....if they were smart...they would be sending the AR registered post......the above is a loop hole that a freind of mine got off on in court....

[Brett_A]

The car I want is already done up and modified fairly well.

The only problem with me trying to appeal is that they didnt say a point from when my suspension starts..

It just says choose between them by the 18th and send it back..

And MR_Italy, thats exactly right. With a new car, theres not a way in the world that I wont want to give it at least one little boot within a year, expecially with it being a GTR.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Brett_A

[R33S2]

Dam! I would have a clean record if I knew this stalling stuff and kept the Co car BUT I did learn a lesson and it made me a better driver or a slippery one I cant figure which.