R34 Gtt Auto Turbo Upgrade

[satanic]

Hi all,

I'm looking at a turbo upgrade within the next 1 to 2 months and have begun doing some research, pricing and evaluations of the project as a whole.

The car is a 98 R34 GTT with Tiptronic Automatic transmission.

As many know, the stock ECU for the auto is a problem for the GTT as it cannot be replaced with something like say a Power FC; as such a "bandaid" solution is required to get this new setup working.

Current Modifications:

* 3" Exhaust

* Front Mount Intercooler

* Apexi Power Intake

* Manual Boost Controller (soon to be EBC)

* SAFC2

The plan is to upgrade the standard turbo to one rated around 400HP. New fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator will be used as well. The turbo is capable of going to 20psi + but I don't think I'll be boosting it anywhere near that mark.

The question is; once this is installed and say set to 14-15psi, will the SAFC2 be sufficient in tuning it for normal running with the occasional "spirited" driving? In theorey, if I set it to a lower boost the fuel system should still be able to cope as I've compensated with the bigger fuel pump and FPR.

I would go larger injectors, say 480cc but that would require a new ECU to control it. Until I find a reliable and effective way of changing the ECU system this will be a later upgrade.

Car runs at 10psi now without any dramas, just want to know your opinions on this new turbo upgrade and whether 1) it will work with my intended quick-fix and 2) whether it will be stable throughout the entire RPM range.

Thanks in advance for reading this and giving any opinions/ideas. Much appreciated!

Stan

[Sydneykid]

Hi Stan, for a start lets forget totally about boost, it's irrelevant. Then it is simply a matter of numbers;

1. Standard injectors at standard pressure (36-38 psi) 370 cc = 370 bhp (~210 rwkw)

Use adjustable fuel pressure regulator to get pressure up to 45 psi and the standard injectors will flow a bit over 400 cc’s. Which is enough for 400 bhp, ~240 rwkw. You will need a fuel pump that can flow 400 cc’s X 6 = 2.4 litres per minute = 144 litres per hour. Any of the standard GTR fuel pumps will do that, and a bolt on Nismo FPR ($150 from Nengun).

2. I wouldn’t be targeting a 400 bhp turbo, the GCG high flow at 450 bhp (275 rwkw) is a much better proposition, bolt on, no mods, no fabrication, looks standard etc etc. You need to efficiently make the airflow, no stretching of the turbo to anywhere near its limits.

3. Tuning the SAFC is the trick, take some fuel out via lowering the AFM voltage that the ECU sees and the ignition timing advances. So it’s a go around, A/F ratio versus ignition timing and eventually you simply run out of compromises.

4. The trick is to make the power by lowering the restrictions, split dump, hi flow cat, 3.25” (min) exhaust, air filter, cams, porting, intercooler etc. That keeps the inlet temps down and delays the onset of detonation caused by the advancing ignition timing.

5. Have a look around and see if you can pick up an Apexi SITC (Super Ignition Timing Computer), for $200 or so they are good for lessening the compromises by giving some independent control over the ignition timing.

6. Don’t be overly concerned with max power, average power over the used rpm range is what makes a car fast.

I haven’t seen an RB25DET make more than 215 rwkw with an SAFC only, but #4 and #5 should get you the extra 25 rwkw and maybe a little more.

Hope that was of some help

Cheers

[satanic]

Thanks Gary, as always you live up to your reputation of being GOD! That was great information, and I will surely base a lot on it...

Replies:

1) The turbo I am going for will be similar to the GCG hi-flow variants; it will be bolt on using all the stock lines (bored out for greater cooling via oil + coolant). This shouldn't be too much overkill as it will allow for further power later on when a reliable ECU system becomes available.

2) The FPR is relatively easy to source; I'm assuimg it must be adjustable and that a gauge fitted would probably be a better option for tuning.

On to the fuel pump, your calculations say 144L per hour. Would the Bosch 040 pump be ok for this application? What are the issues with having a fuel pump that is too big?

3) I will be getting the split front/dump pipe from BATMBL soon as well as a hi-flow cat. Obviously this will all go in before the turbo so the setup is all good to go.

As for cams, I read somewhere that the cams didn't do anything on the R34NEO engine? Or am I mistaken...

Porting is an option I am yet to look into, now that you've brought it up, I might take a closer look

4) I've looked for the SITC before, but have failed to come across any! Are you saying that the SAFC + SITC combo would be sufficient for this new turbo upgrade?

My tuner is the ex-owner of Haltech and I've started looking into their line of ECUs, maybe this could be the go as it'll work out being the same cost anyway. Furthermore, having one ECU unit will be easier to tune than having two.

5) Max power perhaps was the wrong words to use, just something that feels like I haven't blown a few thousand on without results... stability and reliability are the keywords here. Definitely don't want something that blows up in my face

Anyways, thanks for your input, I'll be sure to talk to a few people and tell them your opinion!

[kudos.motorsports]

Hi Stan,

If you are serious about the car remaining an auto I would recommend you look down the path of a piggy back system such as the Greddy E-Manage Ultimate. This particular unit is a fairly new release however the previous E-Manage can be found in some serious high output cars. In all honesty the E-Manage & E-Manage Ultimate in particular are as good as a full aftermarket ECU. The new model has a few features that even items such as a Power FC don't have such as the ability to be easily switch between to tuning maps e.g. cruising (fuel saving) & power via an externally located dim switch and support for automatic transmissions as the factory ECU still remains.

If you desire any further details don't hesitate to ask buddy.

Andrew

[predator]

I am running a highflow rb25 turbo on an rb20 with 16psi of boost with really only an SAFC for 'tuning' control, also with a nismo FPR.. and it was tuned quite successfully for 12.5:1 across the range on the dyno without any funny dips.

Make sure you get the FPR checked out on the dyno with a professional gauge.. my nismo one was about 10psi off the stock pressure :-s

True, its not an R34 (which I believe has more protection, self-control), and more power would be had with an aftermarket ecu, but yes, it can be done for a while.

[R31Nismoid]

i wonder what kind of beating the Jap elec box will take...

[satanic]

Sweet thanks for the feedback guys...

BigSully; how much would an e-manage ultimate package cost all up... I'm under the impression that there are MANY components that one needs to buy (all seperate)

Predator; that is promising... did you change your fuel pump? what power are you running from the rb20 with that turbo setup?

Finally, FPR with a gauge would be the best option yes?

[satanic]

OK so I've spent half a day reading up on ECUs for the automatics...

* Greddy e-manage appears to be good and stable;

* Greddy e-manage Ultimate seems to be in testing phases;

* Apexi P-NBC is being trialled in Japan;

* SAFC + SITC are both working fine

* Bikirom is working; but no tuners in Sydney yet

* Powerplay ROM Flash works, but rather $$$

So I guess for now it's still the SAFC only option... will just need to wind down the PSI level to say 14-15, and tune it for that.

Hope to here a few more solutions/options/words of advice from you guys though

Thanks

[satanic]

OH forgot to add that Haltech systems may be another option - still waiting to hear back from them regarding their product.

[Sydneykid]

From a recent post.........................................

Search all you like, there is no full ECU replacement for auto Skylines. The current situation, as I see it, is you have 4 choices;

1. Suffer harsh gearchanges and reduced gearbox life and use any ECU you like. They are all the same as far as the gearbox is concerned. None of them have the gearshift logic programming for cutting/retarding the ignition timing on gearchanges. Saying that Microtech or Link or Power FC or Haltech or any other ECU is better for autos is absolute crap, NONE of them have the programming.

2. Use piggy backs, SAFC, SITC, EManage (there is a claim that EManage now works with Skyline ignition, but it is early days yet) or Exede (still under development). They all retain the standard ECU and therefore its program for gearshift logic ignition retard. What's the limit as far as max power is concerned? I don't know, I haven't seen anyone reach 300 rwkw with piggy backs yet, there are a few around 250 rwkw though.

3. Change the gearbox to manual and use whatever ECU you like.

4. Change to a stronger auto, you will still have harsh changes and the life of the gearbox will be less (than it would with ECU programing for gearshift). Or upgrade the components in the standard gearbox, so they last a bit longer. Or use a manual shift controller, so you decide when the gearchanges are going to occur (you can take your foot off the throttle on the gearchange).

This is not going to change as far as I can see (so don't search again tomorrow for a magic solution) because no one is going to spend the money developing the programming for an aftermarket ECU for Nissan autos. It would simply cost far too much and be unsaleable (no one would pay the price). This has been the case since 1989 so why would it change now?

cheers

PS; Yes, there are Power FC's for auto Toyotas but they have comletely different logic in their gearshift and ECU. This means no complex programming is required (like a Nissan).

[Sydneykid]

Finally, FPR with a gauge would be the best option yes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessary, plug the dyno fuel pressure gauge in when tuning it.

cheers

[mad34]

i am using emanage ulitmate at the moment. i have had no problems with coils using 666DAN's zener diode trick. however the ultimate doesnt interface with the e01 ebc. so i am changing over to the blue emanage for that reason the e01 can basically do what the pfc handcontroller does. display data and enter changes.

so satanic if you get an emanage id buy the blue one as you said you havent got an ebc yet so i f you get the e01 you will have as much flexibility as the pfc.. plus my emanage ultimate can be slightly unstable from time to time, but genrally it works ok.

also if you havent already got them splitfires are a must if you have an r34 the standards coils suck ass.

[satanic]

Can someone back mad34 up on that claim about e-manage (blue) against Apexi Power FC?

That may be the option in that case since it's been proven to work

So mad34, you would go for the blue version over ultimate? I thought the ultimate would be the better one.

[mad34]

yeah i would go the blue version. it may not have as many so called "features". but the extra stuff it has i dont really use anyway. And as i have said the ultimate does not interface with multifunction display so if you want to monitior things you have to carry a lap top in the car. So i will be changing mine over on tuesday.

[Sydneykid]

I don’t really want to get into EManage bashing, but I haven’t found anyone who has got one to work over a long period of time. They have always had some issues with RB ignition systems, the zener diode mod seems to at least allow then to run, whether it stands the test of time is yet to be proven. The instability in high temps has been cropping up lately, maybe it’s a phantom or a symptom of the recent hot weather, I don’t really know yet.

All that aside, I still think (for what it does) it is grossly overpriced by the time you ad all the bits necessary to use its full functionality.

cheers

[mad34]

a few ppl have it working sydneykid. r34 standard coils are shit and have problems with heat etc. since getting splitfires i have had no issues that were coil related. And the blue emanage with eo1 ebc is relatively the same price as a pfc with boost control kit so what are you talking about?. with all harness' it does the same thing as a pfc. ultimate is a little more expensive though

have you used an emanage yourself sydneykid????

[R34GTX]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I was advised by a very reputable garage in Brisbane that SAFC-2 is treated like a "parasite" by the stock ECU and sooner or later the R34 Neo ECU learns away from it??

Is this at all possible? And on a side note, once you tune a SAFC-2 if you take the battery off and reset yuor ECU, will the SAFC-2 need to be re-tuned>??

yeah i would go the blue version. it may not have as many so called "features". but the extra stuff it has i dont really use anyway.  And as i have said the ultimate does not interface with multifunction display so if you want to monitior things you have to carry a lap top in the car.  So i will be changing mine over on tuesday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[satanic]

I've had my SAFC2 tuned on the car and yes, my battery has been disconnected whilst performing other mods. The SAFC2 has it's own internal memory which retains the tune.

As for the parasite thing, I'm not sure... I read somewhere that the ECU is a "learning" computer so you might be onto something

Nonetheless, this upgrade is due to happen in a few weeks... if I don't find anything reliable, I'll just wind down the boost level and have my tuner go at it with SAFC2 alone.

Once something good pops up, I'll just change things around~

[Sydneykid]

1. Sorry to hijack the thread, but I was advised by a very reputable garage in Brisbane that SAFC-2 is treated like a "parasite" by the stock ECU and sooner or later the R34 Neo ECU learns away from it??

Is this at all possible?

2. And on a side note, once you tune a SAFC-2 if you take the battery off and reset yuor ECU, will the SAFC-2 need to be re-tuned>??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Bullshit

2. No

cheers

[Abo Bob]

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...6entry1860376