Best Toe/camber/castor Setting For Track

[justinfox]

Hey all,

I was just wondering what the best settings are for an R32 GT-R for track work.

I ask this because I also have an MX-5 which I bought, got a dodgey wheel alignment done and tracked and spun out nearly every corner!!! I then did a lot of research online and found that most MX-5 owners run the same set-up (or very close to). The settings were:

Front

Camber: -1.5 degrees

Caster: MAX

Toe: 0

Rear

Camber: -2 degrees

Toe: 0

I went to Blairs and asked them to set up the car as specified above and went out on track again and damn, even in the wet I can hold drifts or I can choose to grip. It's damn PERFECT. You really wouldn't believe how much it transformed the car.

So it's got me thinking. I've been driving the GT-R on stock set-up. Alignment is my Heasmans but they can't adjust castor/camber/toe without me buying all the neccessary sussy mods which I am about to do right now.

I just wanted to know, once I have all these sussy mods in the car. What the best settings were for Eastern Creek/Wakefield and just general track work. Not fussed about tyres wearing out quicker of-course. Just want a tried and true suspension set-up.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[justinfox]

I just did a hellovalotof searching and found SK's settings:

Front

Camber: -ve 3.0

Caster: +ve 9

Toe: 0

Rear

Camber: -ve 1.5

Toe: 0

Sounds great to me!!!

[Duncan]

I would have -0.5 less camber and we always run less caster, about 5.5 cant get to 9 but would if we could.

toe you might want to consider 1mm out at the front it really helps turn in. It will kill road tyres quicker but you said thats not a factor.

Otherwise we run the same.

[justinfox]

Cheers D.

[Sydneykid]

I just did a hellovalotof searching and found SK's settings:

Front

Camber:  -ve 3.0

Caster:  +ve 9

Toe:  0

Rear

Camber:  -ve 1.5

Toe:  0

Sounds great to me!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Dunc posted, I think the "9" should be a "6" (maybe I had keyboard dyslexia that day) and a little toe out (1 to 2 mm) on the front will help the turn in.

cheers

[Cain]

i thought toe in was ment to help turn in and toe out caused understeer early on. but was better for drifting?

[Duncan]

Nope. Toe in at the front will slow down turn in, but it would save your tyres if they have camber which is why most tyre shops have toe in on a road alignment (drags more of the tyre across the road)

But maybe thats the case at the rear, toe out in the rear will definately cause an unstable rear end, especially on turn in. But I don't see how "unstable" helps drifting, surely you need a really stable/predictable set up?

[Cain]

duncan what i use on drifint is toe out on front and toe in on rear. i find it holds the slide really well.

but i thought for track you wanted toe in on front and toe out on rear... but i seem to be wrong on the track settings...

Edited February 21, 2006 by Cain

[justinfox]

Cheers guys. Trying to avoid Whiteline and go all JDM (always better in my opinion). Cusco have camber kits: 5mm/10mm/20mm whatever that means. Too confusing so I'm going with Section. Will let everyone know what products I get in the end.

[Sydneykid]

Cheers guys. Trying to avoid Whiteline and go all JDM (always better in my opinion). Cusco have camber kits: 5mm/10mm/20mm whatever that means. Too confusing so I'm going with Section. Will let everyone know what products I get in the end.

Have you read this thread?

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=91064

cheers

Edited February 21, 2006 by Sydneykid

[justinfox]

Thanks SK.

I'm avoiding Whiteline because I bought the full Whiteline suspension package (the works package) for my R32 GT-R and found the ride ridiculously hard for street driving.

Also Powerplay Imports complained about how hard the damn kit was to fit, apparently nothing fit that well at all.

The ride was so hard in fact that I bounced off bumps and once and almost landed in the gutter!!! The ride was so damn harsh and the ride was crashing so hard I took it back to Whiteline and the head technical guy there (forgot his name, strange name, drives a Honda EK Civic) took it for a drive and said it was exactly how it's meant to be!!!

I said I was taking them to court as this was in no way street drivable and then they started pointing the finger at me and saying that I musn't know what sports suspension is meant to feel like. They clearly say it's legal and designed for Australian conditions. Anyway, it didn't threaten them at all and so I just ripped off the whole lot and installed some Tein RA coilovers and damn they're so good... comfortable for street and designed for track work.

My MX-5 Clubman also came stock with Bilstein suspension in it and the ride was so damn crashy it was ridiculous so I replaced it with Tein Super Street coilover which were too soft for me so I replaced the springs with Swift springs of a higher rate.

To say that Japanese coilovers are harder than Whiteline kits is ridiculous full stop. I have had Japanese coilovers on a few cars now. Including TODA Fightex on my DC2R and they're so good on street and track. Full adjustable height and damper is the way to go in my opinion. It's adjustable! If it's too soft, go harder, if it's too hard, go softer! The option is there to tune away to your hearts content.

With the Whiteline I couldn't adjust the height easily (notches, sure but it's a massive job in comparisson to just using a wrench to adjust the height). I couldn't adjust rebound or damper settings either so I was stuck with a set-up I didn't like. IE: It wasn't tuned to what I like.

Also, on track I found the Whiteline set-up soft!!! Very forgiving, yes, but with semis on I found a hell of a lot of body roll.

So, not great for street, or track?! I won't be buying whiteline products again. My car's Japanese, it's a GT-R and deserves quality products. Will let everyone know what I get in any case.

[randominsanity73]

Looking forward to seeing your next post My R32 GTR came over with TODA Fightex coilovers in it. They were stuffed but they were absolutely perfect after they had been rebuilt. Unfortunately due to being old, one of them has been a bit of a pain and if it fails again i'm not sure what i'll do

I've just had fully adjustable polyurethane bushes in the front, and the car should be going back to have the rear end done shortly (parts didn't arrive in time). I think they're great. I'm not sure what brand they are or anything like that though, as i'm having the whole lot done by a suspension shop. Certainly can't complain about the results though - I can feel the difference in the car already (in a good way)!

Is your car going to be set up strictly for track? Or will it be a nice inbetween for street and track? I'd like to have an "inbetween" style set up once i've got the maintenance issues sorted out on my car, hit the track and see what I think (haven't been on a track yet, wanna know how much I like it first hehe). I'm not overly worried about tyre wear but i'd definately be interested to know the specs that are nice for both street and track use, as my car is also my daily driver

[Sydneykid]

My car's Japanese, it's a GT-R and deserves quality products. Will let everyone know what I get in any case.

Hi Justin, you are fully entitled to your opinion. Obviously you have formed that opinion based on your own experiences. As I have based my opinion on my experiences. I have plenty of evidence that Jap suspension simply is not worth the money charged for it, that is is not designed for our conditions, hell it isn't even suitable for Jap conditions.

I will leave you with this thought.......how many successful circuit race GTR's use Jap suspension? Not bluddy many. Shoot, even the Mines R34GTR uses English (Dynamic) suspension. Look under the winning Australian GTR's over the last 14 years and you find Ohlins, Proflex, Drummond or Bilstein. None of those are made in Japan.

cheers

[justinfox]

QUOTE SydneyKid: "Ohlins, Proflex, Drummond or Bilstein. None of those are made in Japan."

Sorry but some of those brands are made in Japan. I have proof if you would like for Ohlins and Bilsteins MADE IN JAPAN. Maybe not the ones in the Aus cars, sure, but they do make Ohlins in Japan.

I think it's arguable to talk about suspension being designed for certain countries conditions (ie: A bit silly really). I mean, surely all countries have bad roads!!!!!!!! It's not like Jap coilovers are designed for super smooth roads... and actually... it's not like coilovers are designed for street driving in general... if you complain about bumps then leave it stock!

And as I mentioned earlier... with the Tein Super Streets (cheapest coilovers they make and designed for street use) you can adjust height and damper settings and make it SOFTER than your stock set-up or a hell of a lot HARDER too in the matter of minutes on your own. IE: They are more adjustable than a set of springs and shocks which to me are much more of a set and forget set-up, or in my case with the Whiteline package... install it and if you dont like it then too bad!!!

The Ohlins stuff that Japanese GT-R race cars use is Japanese. Ohlins is a Euro company sure but the stuff the Japenese put on is different to the stuff we get here. YES you read that right. It is Japanese designed, Jap spec from Ohlins JAPAN. Same with Bilstein... not that yellow Bilstein stuff you get here... but the Japanese Bilsteins (chrome shaft, much better quality etc). :)

In any case. I know for sure the Whiteline Works package was a hardcore crashy ride on streets in comparisson to my Tein RA or TODA fightex or Tein Super Streets as I lived with the Whiteline for a year and driving the Teins for the last 3000kms has been a dream.

The end of the day. In my opinion, a set-up that allows you to drastically adjust the setting of height and damper to your liking is superior to a spring and shock set-up which is set to someone elses liking.

Edited February 22, 2006 by justinfox

[justinfox]

PS: randominsanity73

It's primarily for track work although I do drive it on the street a fair bit. I used to drive it on the street a lot on it's stock suspension but after installing the Whiteline Works kit I couldn't drive it on the street at all, especially with a passenger (or 3) as it was so damn embarassing how crashy and jarring the ride was. I've had many people tell me the springs and shocks were mismatched and that there possibly wasn't enough rebound.

Since installing the Tein RA and adjusting the dampers (a simple twist of a nipple!) to half hardness I've been driving the car daily. I'm loving it all over again.

Looking forward to hitting the tracks with the Teain RA. Should be superior to the Whiteline Works package I had on before (I still have the Whiteline swaybars on the car but will be replacing them with Cusco items soon too).

[Sydneykid]

QUOTE SydneyKid: "Ohlins, Proflex, Drummond or Bilstein. None of those are made in Japan."

Sorry but some of those brands are made in Japan. I have proof if you would like for Ohlins and Bilsteins MADE IN JAPAN. Maybe not the ones in the Aus cars, sure, but they do make Ohlins in Japan.

I think it's arguable to talk about suspension being designed for certain countries conditions (ie: A bit silly really). I mean, surely all countries have bad roads!!!!!!!! It's not like Jap coilovers are designed for super smooth roads... and actually... it's not like coilovers are designed for street driving in general... if you complain about bumps then leave it stock!

And as I mentioned earlier... with the Tein Super Streets (cheapest coilovers they make and designed for street use) you can adjust height and damper settings and make it SOFTER than your stock set-up or a hell of a lot HARDER too in the matter of minutes on your own. IE: They are more adjustable than a set of springs and shocks which to me are much more of a set and forget set-up, or in my case with the Whiteline package... install it and if you dont like it then too bad!!!

The Ohlins stuff that Japanese GT-R race cars use is Japanese. Ohlins is a Euro company sure but the stuff the Japenese put on is different to the stuff we get here. YES you read that right. It is Japanese designed, Jap spec from Ohlins JAPAN. Same with Bilstein... not that yellow Bilstein stuff you get here... but the Japanese Bilsteins (chrome shaft, much better quality etc). :)

In any case. I know for sure the Whiteline Works package was a hardcore crashy ride on streets in comparisson to my Tein RA or TODA fightex or Tein Super Streets as I lived with the Whiteline for a year and driving the Teins for the last 3000kms has been a dream.

The end of the day. In my opinion, a set-up that allows you to drastically adjust the setting of height and damper to your liking is superior to a spring and shock set-up which is set to someone elses liking.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that’s the great thing about forums, you get to express your opinion. And other people get to see that opinion and hopefully plenty of others, some in agreement and some in conflict. Then they can make a somewhat more informed choice than they could previously.

So another 20 cents worth from me………………..

Ohlins is a Swedish company, with a high stake owned by Yamaha as Ohlins used to be almost entirely a bike shock manufacturer. Ohlins have licenced their name (to Carrozeria), maybe becuase of the Yamaha conection, so there are "Ohlins" shocks made in Japan but they are CRAP compared to the Swedish Ohlins. Yes I have tested them, yes I have tried to have them repaired, yes I have compared them to the Swedish Ohlins we use in the race car and THERE IS NO COMPARISON. The Australian Ohlins representative (Steve Cramer) will not touch Japanese Ohlins. He runs the other way as fast as he can. As an example, I changed one of the race R32GTR's from Japanese Ohlins to Proflex and it was 30 seconds faster in a 20 minute race at Oran Park, first time out.

The Bilsteins we use are 100% made in Germany. I can honestly say I have never seen a Japanese manufactured Bilstein. There are Bilsteins sold in Japan of course.

A 400 lbs per inch spring is a 400 lbs per inch spring, whether it is made in Japan or Australia, it STILL takes 400 lbs per inch to compress it 1 inch. And a 400 lbs per inch spring used in the rear of road Skyline is a JOKE.

Japanese suspension is not primarily designed for Japanese roads, it is designed for Japanaese tastes. Their aftermarket likes it that way. Their aftermarket has very little understanding of swaybars, anti lift, anti dive and their mechanics charge like brain surgeons. So suspension set up is almost unknown, it has to be a bolt on culture. I can’t tell you how many hundreds of used Jap cars I have seen for a wheel alignment that have NEVER EVER had one in their life. They still have the manufacturers original paint on the nuts and thread.

Most of the Jap adjustable shocks only adjust the rebound damping. Changing the rebound rates in a shock absorber does not make it softer, that requires a spring and bump rate change. Softening the rebound rate makes it less controlled on spring and bar recoil and chassis vertical motion, that’s not SOFTER. I still hits the bumps with exactly the same force/resistance as it did before.

How do you know that you have the damper settings right? Even an experienced race engineer finds shock set up a bit of a black art. Expecting a novice road car owner to know what is right and what is wrong is asking a lot. The window of operation on the average Japanese shock is very narrow compared to the much wider offerings of the Europeans shocks with their more sophisticated valving. That way you don’t have to guess, you know you have a 90% fit, even in the worst case.

How many times have you adjusted your ride height? And why? Most people choose a height that they want, then they leave it alone. On the race cars we adjust the height regularly, for changing the roll couple (none of our Skylines have adjustable roll centre). At the same time we redo the wheel alignment and the corner weights, as height changes can affect the geometry and balance. But on a road car that never happens. Most of the road cars I see with screw height adjusters have never been touched from the day they were put in, you need a lump hammer to rotate the adjusters. They paid for something that they will never use. You stick them on the aligner or the corner weight scales and they are all over the place. At least with circlip height adjustment you only have to count the grooves.

As I said earlier, horses for courses, one mans meat is another mans poison etc. I have yet to find a single Japanese shock that I would put anywhere near one of my cars. Hopefully one day I will, but I am not holding my breath.

cheers

Edited March 8, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Roy]

Interesting to read your resutls with the Whiteline kit????

Like hsa been said, a spring rate is a spring rate is a spring rate.Sure the damper may struggle to control certain spring rates if not valved correctly...by the Whiteline stuff i have seen is generally pretty soft. I know the 3 cars i have been in with works kits were to compliant if anything...LOL thats the thing personal preferences etc playa big part.

As for beign hard to git...thats another funny one...its apiece of piss to do so not sure why it would be harder then any other suspension kit???

I quite like the Jap kits based ont he cars i have been in...my favourite still being HKS Hypermax II that is in a friends R33. SO i quite like Jap kits, and whislt they are about $500 a corner, that really isnt that expensive when you consider that a spring change os cheap and easy, and you can change the rebound a little.

[Duncan]

How many times have you adjusted your ride height? And why? Most people choose a height that they want, then they leave it alone. On the race cars we adjust the height regularly, for changing the roll couple (none of our Skylines have adjustable roll centre). At the same time we redo the wheel alignment and the corner weights, as height changes can affect the geometry and balance. But on a road car that never happens. Most of the road cars I see with screw height adjusters have never been touched from the day they were put in, you need a lump hammer to rotate the adjusters. They paid for something that they will never use. You stick them on the aligner or the corner weight scales and they are all over the place. At least with circlip height adjustment you only have to count the grooves.

oh.

Am I meant to know this stuff too?

[randominsanity73]

Well i've had the rear bushes done in my car as well. The whole lot was done with a whiteline kit (front and rear). And i'm really happy with it...I think I have already mentioned that after the front was done the difference was really noticable! And now that the rear has been done the car just feels really tight (it's great). Still need new coilovers, but it has definately made a difference.

That said I have been in cars with extremely stiff suspension and had to get used to it, so stiffness doesn't really bother me because of the handling benefits (when the set up is correct). I personally find it is much better for motorsport because you don't get much bodyroll and the car is far more responsive in terms of handling. I put up with a set up that isn't perfect for the street because i'm happy to make that compromise. My car is my daily driver and just to and from work I do 65km's a day....Either way can't complain. I just can't wait to see how much better it is for motorsport.

I personally can't say I think that the whiteline kit is dangerous for street use at all. But I guess we all have different opinions and levels on what we think is acceptable and not-acceptable. Sorry about your bad experience with the whiteline stuff Justin, seems unfortunate. I couldn't be happier with mine

PS: Sydney kid, I asked my tyre & aligner guy about corner weighing my car and sorting that out, and he wasn't in favour of the idea! He told me that it's a waste of time unless you have a full on race car / are really serious about motorsport. Perhaps this is why so many street cars are all over the place as you put it?

There's been some really good info and opinions in this topic

[djr81]

Bad corner weighting will make the car handle differently in a left handed corner than in a right handed one. However, you can achieve the same outcome as using scales with your adjustable suspension. Simply set the pair of dampers to the same thread point ie count the number of threads under the adjusting nuts and make sure they are the same on each side. As the spring rate should be of the order of 3 or 4 kg/mm it is pretty hard to stuff it up to the extent of causing a noticeable difference.

Before anyone gets all narky about using threaded adjustments or circlips - at the intervals the circlips have you would need to be Ayrton Senna to figure out changes in ride height intervals of less than 5mm.

Personally my car has the Whiteline springs & their rates are pretty much spot on, although the front end can be a little (only a little) crashy. You do, however, need to make sure the shop installing the things gets the bump stops right. Too long a bump stop will make the dampers lose control when the spring is under compression and turn your car into a pogo stick.

Edited March 8, 2006 by djr81