Best Toe/camber/castor Setting For Track

[albyone]

Hi Guys

I've just bought a BNR34 recently and just had some tein suspension put in to remove the truck look you get on the standard car. My suspension guru has told me i need adjustable camber rods to pull the camber back away from -3 deg. does anyone have any sugestions of what type of kits i should get or who sells them.

Or yeh need them for front n rear

TA

[GTRgeoff]

Justin, sounds like you have a problem other than the actual suspension that the current setup hides, but is exacerbated by the action of the Bilsteins.

The art of matching spring (for supporting the car weight in a flexible manner) and damper which controls the interaction of the car and wheel in order to maintain tyre contact) is one that takes years to perfect. There is never a right setup for all conditions, so you go with the best compromise. If you are more about track then stop stuffing about and get the race suspension offered by SK (not the street stuff) and make no compromises. Your issues seem more about road though and you have to expect that a car that's a bit older will have more rattles and squeaks, and the addition of new suspension that is working perfectly may (will) make them more noticeable if it is a sports type suspension.

I have a dedicated track car which is uncomfortable to drive on the street and will become more so, but also have a GTR33 that I still drive daily only 6 months after back surgery. It was so uncomfortable that I ditched the Apexi height and damping adjustable suspension (quick point, all skyline shock/springs are "coilovers" not just the aftermarket stuff) for SK's kit, as specified by him and revalved to his requirements. Lets face it, we'd be hard pressed to find someone who knows more about suspension setup, and certainly it won't be the guy at most alignment shops. While the ride is still sports and good enough for me to go play competetively against our quickest runners at DECA it is still a joy on the streets with massive front end grip over the previous setup. It also reduced the number of rattles and squeaks. This is what it was:

Front = 290 lbs per inch

Rear = 100/555 lbs per inch

Progressive, the 11.7/5.25 coil is 100 lbs per inch and when it closes up completely (coil bind) the spring rate jumps to 555 lbs per inch (the rate of the 13.8/4.25 coil). Now that is ugly, my back aches just thinking about it.

from here so maybe measure yours up and see what the rates are. Certainly whoever specced this kit was on drugs, but it used to be outstanding for sliding around the skidpan on road rubber and good for nothing else. I haven't bothered to learn just how the valving differs in SK's kit or what the spring rates are.

What makes you comfortable is important though, but it seems odd that there are a few quick drivers that like the Whiteline/SK stuff, so I'm interested to learn more about your setup and get some insights on your driving style.

[GTRgeoff]

Hi Guys

I've just bought a BNR34 recently and just had some tein suspension put in to remove the truck look you get on the standard car. My suspension guru has told me i need adjustable camber rods to pull the camber back away from -3 deg. does anyone have any sugestions of what type of kits i should get or who sells them.

Or yeh need them for front n rear

TA

Whiteline do adjustable bush kits but you maye need inner and outer sets to correct that much camber. Must be low to the point of too low. I have a video of GTR34 rear suspension working and there is a massive change in camber over the whole suspension range, especially at the limits. Too low isn't ideal for the best handling.

[justinfox]

All good discussions for sure.

As mentioned before, Wotjekt (spelling?) from Whiteline, the designer of whiteline packages apparenty, test drove my R32 GT-R with the whiteline works kit installed and said with a wry grin on his face that it was correct, normal, the way it's meant to be. I couldn't fight that anymore, couldn't get a refund.... so just took it on the chin.

It was crashy on the street and too soft on the track. My new TEIN RA set-up is also very bumpy on the street but not crashy at all. I have yet to take it to the track.

GTRGeoff, my set-up now is whiteline sways and Tein RA's on the middle hardness setting, not adjusted as I've yet to take them on track, rate my opinions as well as get the opinion of the Burrows Day instructors on my new set-up. I've also decided to leave the camber/castor adjustment until after the next track day I do in the GT-R (new engine is not yet dyno tuned).

As far as my "driving style" goes. I've only been tracking for the past year and I'm getting faster each time I go out there but I've got so much more to learn which is exactly what is keeping it all exciting for me right now. I do know however that my GT-R is now one hell of a lot more comfortable to drive on the streets than it was before with my Whiteline set-up and as mentioned before... it wasn't just me who thought the ride was crashy as hell, it was many other people who've been a passenger in my car, some of these people were talented drivers, some were just passengers who thought the ride was ridiculously hard!

I'm not one to say that this suspension is better than that if I have not yet tried it myself. Same with any other product for that matter... but I have tried the whiteline works package for the R32 GT-R and I have also tried the stock set-up as well as the Tein RA's and I can say, from experience, that the stock was softest and most comfortable for the street, the whiteline was crashy on the street and a little soft on the track (I had body roll) and so far, after alsmot 3k of driving on the streets bedding my new engine in the Tein RA are much stiffer than stock, and sure, bumpy on Parramatta road but not at all crashy.

PPS: I am a JDM fan. I love Japanese cars and Japanese performance products. I've yet to encounter dissapointment from brands such as Mugen, Toda, Tein, HKS, Cusco. Perhaps I am biased towards all things Japanese, and surely less experienced than SK in terms of suspension but there's no way I could ever take a sweeping statement like "All Jap suspension is crap" seriously no matter how experienced the person that said it was. Same goes for the opinions of MOTOR Magazine staff when they rip into a particular car (I know I've definitely disagreed with some of the opinions they've had), or the opinions of Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear, all of them just opinions to me in the end of the day and based on their experiences, and not my own so I know nothing much until I try it for myself.

[r33_racer]

Weve got teins in our race car...i wish i had researched a little more before hand and/or waited for SK's packages to be released....Japanese springs are soo goddamn stiff it aint funny. First race we had all the goodies in and setup. Just because the springs were soo stiff it didnt let any other suspension component actually work and we couldnt get the power to the ground. Changed springs and were abit better now...you can actually half change the balance and weight transfer whilst driving...before the car just stayed perfectly flat whether you were turning a corner or spinning out at 160kph.

each to their own.

[justinfox]

Japanese springs are soo goddamn stiff it aint funny.

Again, another sweeping statement. SURELY NOT ALL Japanese springs are stiff?! Are you saying that the Japanese don't make soft springs at all?

What kg were the springs you had? As I've mentioned before my Tein Super Street coilovers came with 6kg and 4kg springs and they were too soft for my liking so I replaced the springs in the coilovers with shorter and harder springs from Swift (also Japanese) and the ride's much firmer now which suits what I was after.

[Sydneykid]

oh.

Am I meant to know this stuff too?

Yes Duncan

Cheers

[hrd-hr30]

I can't agree on comments about the naivety of the JDM aftermarket suspension industry. Look at the exhaustive range of quality components available for every concievable suspension component, and chassis bracing components. And then look at the range of JDM manufacturers making all that stuff.

Australia's aftermarket suspension industry is amatuer hour by comparison. We can barely make a swaybar that fits properly...

[r33_racer]

The teins were street spec...but came with 10kg fronts and 8kg rears. I was abit vague..i apologise...but the springs that come std with them are generally too stiff unless your drifting. I managed to find some softer tein springs from fulcrum and after abit of stuffing around its not so bad anymore. I have nothing against Jap parts at all, but ive always noticed that the japanese just copy european stuff and streamline it into a more affordable market with as little compromises as possible ultimately ending up with a pretty damn good product, but just not as good as the euros.

Im not jap bashing..i love jap parts. But my father did his apprenticeship at merc benz and hes impressed upon me from a young age that anything that comes from germany is generally of good quality if not the best. Obviously it doesnt apply to everything, but generally anything automotive whether its trucks or cars they seem to shine brighter then most.

[djr81]

The teins were street spec...but came with 10kg fronts and 8kg rears. I was abit vague..i apologise...but the springs that come std with them are generally too stiff unless your drifting. I managed to find some softer tein springs from fulcrum and after abit of stuffing around its not so bad anymore. I have nothing against Jap parts at all, but ive always noticed that the japanese just copy european stuff and streamline it into a more affordable market with as little compromises as possible ultimately ending up with a pretty damn good product, but just not as good as the euros.

Im not jap bashing..i love jap parts. But my father did his apprenticeship at merc benz and hes impressed upon me from a young age that anything that comes from germany is generally of good quality if not the best. Obviously it doesnt apply to everything, but generally anything automotive whether its trucks or cars they seem to shine brighter then most.

Teins can be had at 5kg/mm front & 4kg/mm rear. I have a set of them on one of my GT-R's.

Mate your father was probably correct about Japanese gear when he did his apprenticeship. But I would submit that anytime from about 1990 on it has ceased to be the case. The build quality/tolerencing/fit and finish on Japanese goods is now as good as or better than their German equivalents. Then you factor in the price. If he knows anyone at MB get him to ask about the levels of warranty work they have to perform. Much, much more than their Japanese equivalents. Certainly the exposure I have had to European engineering in the recent past has left me scratching my head & my budgets bleeding red.

The point of all this is that the gear you buy needs to be, in the first instance, fit for purpose. Japanese equipment can be more highly finished (Compare say a PWR intercooler end tank to a Japanese equivalent) because the production process can be more automated and made more specific ie tailored to the product. Why? Simply because volumes are greater. On the other hand you can (& I have) ring up the local suppliers & get them to make you a one off eg A front sway bar for a GT-R in a particular bar diameter. Try getting that kind of service ex Japan.

The best shocks in the world are no good to you if they don't match their spring rate. The springs need to match the sway bars, which need to be suited to the front/rear ride height, which needs to match up the suspension geometry etc etc etc. In other words, a matched set. Too many people forget that when trying to set up their cars. I have local gear, German gear & JDM gear on my car. With the enormous amount of choice available for the GT-R's why wouldn't you pick the eyes out of everything?

[r33_racer]

The best shocks in the world are no good to you if they don't match their spring rate. The springs need to match the sway bars, which need to be suited to the front/rear ride height, which needs to match up the suspension geometry etc etc etc. In other words, a matched set. Too many people forget that when trying to set up their cars. I have local gear, German gear & JDM gear on my car. With the enormous amount of choice available for the GT-R's why wouldn't you pick the eyes out of everything?

Yes i agree with you. I have been learning this as ive been going along. But too many people seem to base their assumptions after just one use of a certain product and some people will only use a certain product regardless of how good another is...purely because thats all they know or want to know. Ignorance never works to your advantage.

Our race car is a bitsa as well. So long as the package works harmonically....there shouldnt be too much more to worry about.

[scathing]

Im not jap bashing..i love jap parts. But my father did his apprenticeship at merc benz and hes impressed upon me from a young age that anything that comes from germany is generally of good quality if not the best. Obviously it doesnt apply to everything, but generally anything automotive whether its trucks or cars they seem to shine brighter then most.

But that's because that's what he's grown up with, and so that's where his biases lie.

I'm sure the JDM lovers feel the same way about their stuff, especially when the look at the BMWs people own and the myriad of electrical problems those cars incur. And how in most head to heads the Japanese cars do as well if you ignore the badge, and do it for less. In Wheels' last Euro vs Jap comparo, only the Golf managed to pip its competitors.

And I'm sure that AuDM car lovers were pretty bloody happy when a bunch of car mag scribes (including Motor Magazine) took a Nurburgring specialist pro driver out on the track and the 4 door HSV GTS spanked the E39 M5 and E55. Not bad considering the GTS was half the price, and BMW M and AMG use the 'ring as their test track whereas the GTO had never seen it before.

etc etc

[Sydneykid]

Be careful that you are not confusing the quality of manufacture with the underlying design engineering. The Japanese are very good at production engineering the hell out of a product so it fits together perfectly, doesn’t leak and is totally reliable for its intended life. This is not the same as designing a product from scratch, coming up with the idea in the first place, inventing it if you like. Take a look at the worldwide patent lodgement statistics, the Japanese are grossly underrepresented considering their population and education standards. Have a look at the patents lodged for suspension and you will mostly find European countries of origin.

The sheer size of the domestic Japanese market (population 130 million) makes this sort of quality possible, with CAD/CAM common and repetition manufacturing almost compulsory. Add this to the bolt on mentality forced on them by extremely expensive mechanical work and you can see why the products look fantastic, fit perfectly and are quick to install.

A product can be all of those and still not be a good product, particularly if its intrinsic design is flawed.

An example (simplistic, I know, but still relevant) take a look at your JDM speedo with its 180 kph maximum. Now compare that to the autobarn, where 180 kph puts you in the slow lane.

cheers

[djr81]

"Be careful that you are not confusing the quality of manufacture with the underlying design engineering."

I suppose the point I would try to make is that I consider design for quality of manufacture to be a fundamental issue for productionised components. The Chris Bangles of this world tend to get all the publicity, but the production engineers are the ones who make sure your shiney new car doesn't fall apart 6 months later.

"so it fits together perfectly, doesn’t leak and is totally reliable for its intended life."

Those are pretty handy attributes for my money. In fact it is one of the things I really admire about Japanese product - Power FC, anyone?

"A product can be all of those and still not be a good product, particularly if its intrinsic design is flawed."

True. And a product can be rubbish even if its intrinsic design is brilliant, eg well anything Jaguar has ever made.

As for 180km/h - well that is where the speed limiter kicks in on my AU Foulcan too. My mates 405 Pug can't even go that quick...

Guess there are two ways of looking at things - and as is often the case both have elements of truth to them.

[Duncan]

Didn't this thread get interesting

One thing I have really noticed on SAU and other jap focussed car forum is an assumption that it has to come from Japan to be any good.

Australia has a pretty strong motorsport and car engineering background, and a relevent example is Fred Gibson led the world development of the Group A GTRs.

But some other things we do as well or better than other countries including Japan:

Heat exhangers - oil coolers, radiators etc

Calipers and discs

Brake pads

Bearings

Bushes

Springs

Justin my post isn't pointed at you, you have trried both and formed an opinion which is the only way to do it

But I think its a real shame so many people pay more than they have to just because its from Japan.

[Roy]

Didn't this thread get interesting

One thing I have really noticed on SAU and other jap focussed car forum is an assumption that it has to come from Japan to be any good.

Australia has a pretty strong motorsport and car engineering background, and a relevent example is Fred Gibson led the world development of the Group A GTRs.

But some other things we do as well or better than other countries including Japan:

Heat exhangers - oil coolers, radiators etc

Calipers and discs

Brake pads

Bearings

Bushes

Springs

Justin my post isn't pointed at you, you have trried both and formed an opinion which is the only way to do it

But I think its a real shame so many people pay more than they have to just because its from Japan.

Dont forget that the Shell Sierras were basically the quickest in the world...and they were Aussie built, not liek many of the other Ex-works Europenan cars that the other guys were typically driving.

Anda casual observation at the pinnacle of motorsport...look at the Japanese F1 teams like Toyota and Honda which are run predominantly by Europeans (inc a lot of Aussies). Then look at why do the Japanese run their GT cars under their own rules, not the FIAs?

Jap gear is good, but by no means should it automatically be considered better. So much of their components are re-badged American and Euro gear

[Sydneykid]

Didn't this thread get interesting

One thing I have really noticed on SAU and other jap focussed car forum is an assumption that it has to come from Japan to be any good.

Australia has a pretty strong motorsport and car engineering background, and a relevent example is Fred Gibson led the world development of the Group A GTRs.

But some other things we do as well or better than other countries including Japan:

Heat exhangers - oil coolers, radiators etc

Calipers and discs

Brake pads

Bearings

Bushes

Springs

Justin my post isn't pointed at you, you have trried both and formed an opinion which is the only way to do it

But I think its a real shame so many people pay more than they have to just because its from Japan.

I can add to Duncan's list;

Hollinger made all of the BMW SuperTourer gearboxes worldwide.

Harrop makes callipers, hats, uprights, crankshafts etc for many of the leading race teams in the world

Motec ECU's and dashes are found in almost every form of motorsport worldwide

Proflex designed and manufactured the Subaru WRC shock absorbers

etc etc

cheers

[scathing]

Some guys in Melbourne designed the exhaust / mufflers for the Ferrari 360's, to make sure they flowed well and sounded the way a Ferrari should.

BMW Motorsport in Australia also developed a mechanical active brake bias adjuster for their Super Tourer. It was a complete hack, so there's no documentation on it with BMW. I know the guy who bought the car, and BMW Motorsport contacted him about buying it back.

[justinfox]

Totally agree that much of what Australia produces is better than the rest of the world. I've been fighting to prove that Australian Designers are of international standard since 1999 with my career life's work at Australian INfront. An Australian online design community (www.australianinfront.com.au).

But we are talking about Whiteline here and also more specifically the thought that all Japanese suspension is crap, or, too hard for "Australian conditions".

The GT-R is a legendary car (you would be nuts to say it's not innovative or original). I've said it before. There's a lot in a badge... the GT-R badge that is. It's legendary for all the right reasons. It's the ultimate Japanese muscle car.

I love it. Japan created it and I respect the Japanese designers/creators so much when I see it in my garage every day.

Each to their own. Japanese car culture rocks out. It's my buzz. Cool if yours is Australian cars, Fords and Holdens. Damn I'm into them too but not as much as I'm into my Japanese performance cars and parts.

Peace out (lol!).

Edited March 17, 2006 by justinfox

[scathing]

The GT-R is a legendary car (you would be nuts to say it's not innovative or original). I've said it before. There's a lot in a badge... the GT-R badge that is. It's legendary for all the right reasons. It's the ultimate Japanese muscle car.

I love it. Japan created it and I respect the Japanese designers/creators so much when I see it in my garage every day.

The R32 GT-R was Nissan's response to the Porsche 959. They modelled ATTESSA's performance on the Porsche's drivetrain in having an active variable torque split.

While they ultimately did it longer and better, like most Japanese automotive legends its borderline whether you can call it "innovative" or "original".

If you look at all the Japanese hero cars, they're all compared to something European. The NSX has always been called the Japanese Ferrari. The WRX always gets compared to the Audi quattro, as could the Mitsubishi GTO. The Supra and RX-7 are a big power RWD coupe. Britain practically invented the roadster that the MX-5 is now synonymous with....

To throw a curve ball, I think the most innovative and original Japanese car would be the Integra Type-R, since no-one else has managed to pull off a FWD coupe that handles well and people would actually want to use for motorsport (as opposed to most FWD cars that people race only because they can't afford anything better). I can't think of anything from Europe that comes close. The Fiat Coupe, by all accounts, handles like shit.