Help With Some Audio Tuning Tips...

[Eug]

hi,

i'm not a big audiophile and not looking into win any sq or db comps - but I do enjoy my music and would like to get the most out of my system.

at the moment I have some pioneer 3 way 6.5" for the fronts (35w rms), and some pioneer 3 way 6x9" (40w rms) for the rear. i am not interested in getting a sub hence the 6x9" for rear fill. they are running off my pioneer mp3 headunit 4x50w (i guess around 20-25w rms)

i have thought about the idea of getting a 4 channel amp, but would like to see where i stand with having the speakers running off the headunit before deciding to buy one. also does the "underpowering a sub and ruining it" theory apply to smaller speakers?

are there any hints or rules of thumb for setting things up? (excuse the terminology - please someone correct me)

for example?

high pitched sounds coming from the fronts. (mid - high range?)

low deep bass sounds coming from the rears. (low range?) - bit of a waste for getting 3 way 6x9"s no? yes?

i have looked through the handbook for the headunit, and there seems to be a few settings that i can fiddle with.

- compression and bmx (lets you adjust the sound playback)

........- comp. function balances the output of louder and softer sounds at high volumes.

........- bmx controls sound reverberations to give playback fuller sound

- obviously there's an equalizer setting with a few pre-sets, and a custom one available allowing for finer adjustments of the curve

- there is a loudness setting, which compensates for deficiencies in the low and high sound ranges at low volume

- front image enhancer (fie) function which enhances the front stage by cutting mid and high range frequency from the rear speakers. you can cut out (100Hz, 160Hz and 250Hz) from the rear speakers.

i have had a look through caraudioaustralia.com and icecavern and a few other car audio forums - but haven't been able to find a tutorial of sorts as to how to "tune" a system without using an amp.

from what i've gathered and read so far, would i be correct in: setting the equalizer at a flat setting first, then tune my own custom one? or would i use one of the pre-set ones and fine tune it (how?) from there, then apply the other settings such as comp/bmx, loudness and fie? then by listening to it?

as opposed to applying all my wanted settings ie. comp/bmx, loudness and fie - then adjusting the equalizer to suit?

any ideas or tips on how i should set up the equalizer? and which Hz should i cut out from the rear speakers? (250Hz)?

i mainly listen to some chunky house, with odd bits of vocal trance and techno, which has me a bit confused as i would also need to keep some clear low frequency around.

sorry for the long ask - if anyone can help, would be much appreciated.

cheers

eug

[dangerous_daveo]

Really I guess you want to try and get most of the sound up through the front speakers. As technically that is where the sound is meant to be coming from. And midbass is a biggy, but I dont know how your going to go with the limited amount of power. Depending on how far you want to go, probably an amp and new front speakers would be handy. Probably wouldnt cost THAT much. My thoughts anyway.

[rocketboy]

Hi, any chance you would purchase seperate components for the front end ( mid and tweeter seperate), as this would give a much more accurate sound.

i have thought about the idea of getting a 4 channel amp, but would like to see where i stand with having the speakers running off the headunit before deciding to buy one. also does the "underpowering a sub and ruining it" theory apply to smaller speakers?

An amp will help keep things clearer at high volumes, and under powering a sub will only ruin it if you turn the amp gains up and run the sub to clipping - basically sending a distorted signal to the sub/speaker

are there any hints or rules of thumb for setting things up? (excuse the terminology - please someone correct me)

for example?

high pitched sounds coming from the fronts. (mid - high range?)

low deep bass sounds coming from the rears. (low range?) - bit of a waste for getting 3 way 6x9"s no? yes?

The way to think of a system is to potray a band playing on your bonnet. Very difficult to achieve this in car audio. But basically you want the sound coming from the front like in a concert. With componetnts you can move tweeters to improve sound.

The basic rule is that sub bass is non directional, from my experience most music will be directional at 70hz and above. With your 6x9's you would want to cross over higher as the won't be to flash much lower than 100hz.

i have looked through the handbook for the headunit, and there seems to be a few settings that i can fiddle with.

- compression and bmx (lets you adjust the sound playback)

........- comp. function balances the output of louder and softer sounds at high volumes.

........- bmx controls sound reverberations to give playback fuller sound

- obviously there's an equalizer setting with a few pre-sets, and a custom one available allowing for finer adjustments of the curve

- there is a loudness setting, which compensates for deficiencies in the low and high sound ranges at low volume

- front image enhancer (fie) function which enhances the front stage by cutting mid and high range frequency from the rear speakers. you can cut out (100Hz, 160Hz and 250Hz) from the rear speakers.

Sounds like a Pioneer heady. Good controls on them. Set rear to FIE, play with different frequencies, listen to what sounds best, hopefully the image (sound) will pull further forward when crossed over lower, say 100-160hz. This does cut the majority of the music spectrum out though, but it should enhance the froont sound image.

I'd suggest EQ to flat, then tune to taste. start with the highs. Your heady may allow you to adjust how much of the ferequency band is adjusted, you can play with that later for fine tuning.

i have had a look through caraudioaustralia.com and icecavern and a few other car audio forums - but haven't been able to find a tutorial of sorts as to how to "tune" a system without using an amp.

from what i've gathered and read so far, would i be correct in: setting the equalizer at a flat setting first, then tune my own custom one? or would i use one of the pre-set ones and fine tune it (how?) from there, then apply the other settings such as comp/bmx, loudness and fie? then by listening to it?

as opposed to applying all my wanted settings ie. comp/bmx, loudness and fie - then adjusting the equalizer to suit?

Turn all sound setting off to tune. Add later if it sounds better once EQ is tuned. Loudness is good for low volumes though!

any ideas or tips on how i should set up the equalizer? and which Hz should i cut out from the rear speakers? (250Hz)?

Switch between them and listen for whats best too you. Listen to wether the image moves more frontal as opossed to around you.

i mainly listen to some chunky house, with odd bits of vocal trance and techno, which has me a bit confused as i would also need to keep some clear low frequency around.

Sure you dont want a sub?!

Hope this helps.

[Ghostrider]

For starters, the rated power is PMPO, Max power output and the RMS or rated output would probably be about 4 x 10WRMS or less.

To maximise your sound systems potential, some sort of control unit can be placed between the head unit and amps or speakers. These are often sound processors, but your system head unit could have a lot of these facilities.

Amps to drive the speakers are a must, when you have speakers with rated power output of 35 & 40WRMS, you would need at least half their respective power to drive them successfully, but never ever use amps with rated RMS power higher than the nominal rating of the speakers.

You don't need to buy huge output amp or amps. An amp of 4 x 20 or 30 WRMS would be excellent and give you some safety margin. This can be done by using just 1 4 channel, or 2 x 2channel amps.

I'm using an Graphic Equalizer between my head unit and amps, as I don't have the same features in my head unit as the modern ones.

I am going through a similar exercise right now, but unlike you I have vintage issues.

My HR30, built in 1984 and fairly rare in Oz, 5 that I know of, was designed with a separate am/fm radio & a cassette player. In the most part all in this era were post mount and hence I am using an '86 model post mount head unit.

Kenwood KRC-200A AM/FM Radio Cassette head unit.

This comes as a 4 channel system and probably 4 x 25 W max.

This model uses 5 & 8 pin DIN plugs for low input, interconnect leads and have to be made, unlike the modern units use RCA.

I have a Kenwood KGC-4400 Graphic Equalizer which has control facility for 50hz, 200hz 800hz, 3.2Khz & 12.8Khz frequency bands, plus fader control, sub woofer control (on/0ff) plus 50/80/150Hz frequency choice bands & level control. This has 4 leads out the back for front amp, rear amp, sub amp & connection to head unit.

These can be purchased on ebay fairly cheaply if you want to go down this track, some Pioneer units and using RCA connections.

I have 2 amps, front is Kenwood KAC 5020, 2 channel 25WRMS output and will drive Pioneer 4" splits TS-C1002 rated at 150W max and 50W Nominal. Rear is KAC-7020, 2 channel 45WRMS and will drive a good pair of 6 x 9's.

Frequency response, sensitivity & power handling are the 3 biggies in speakers as far as I'm concerned.

Once you choose your given power handling capability, it's time to choose the best speakers that will serve you best.

TS-C1002 up front are rated with 70~25000Hz and 90db @ 1W/1M. As 4' speakers go, that's about as good as they get.

Thanks to some recommendation from this forum, I will probably go with Pioneer TS-A6971E 6 x 9's rated with 25~30000hz and 93db @ 1W/1M. Power handling 320W max & 80WRMS.

Something to remember that the BOOM BOOM rap mad teenagers don't do, is that the human ear cannot hear below 20Hz, it can be felt, but not heard. As our cars are far from the perfect sound room, I can't see any point in having speakers that respond to less than 25/30Hz.

Most reasonable 6 x 9's do this, so why do we need subs.

Cheers, D

[Eug]

thanks alot guys (especially rocketboy)

i am 99.99% on not wanting a seperate tweeter setup - i know it will be better, but i'm not that pedantic and just want something decent to listen to while i drive.

i'll give all that a go and see where i stand on wanting a 4 chan amp... then if i'm still not happy then i MAY look into a small 10" sub, bridge the amp and run the 6x9s off the headunit.

cheers again.

[342Four]

would that be the pioneer 3750 deck?

sounds similar to mine in features - awesome deck

and sounds like u got some good advice which i might follow up on

[dangerous_daveo]

thanks alot guys (especially rocketboy)

i am 99.99% on not wanting a seperate tweeter setup - i know it will be better, but i'm not that pedantic and just want something decent to listen to while i drive.

i'll give all that a go and see where i stand on wanting a 4 chan amp... then if i'm still not happy then i MAY look into a small 10" sub, bridge the amp and run the 6x9s off the headunit.

cheers again.

If you do go the sub, and keep the 6x9s just make sure you turn off the bass from the 6x9s, it will wreck your sub bass otherwise.

[rocketboy]

Daveo is right about the 6x9's, you don't want the sub and 6x9's playining the same frequency, can muddy up the sound. You look like your on the right track for setting up your system EUG - good luck.

Ghostrider, I don't mean to nit pick but I have to comment on some of your comments...

For starters, the rated power is PMPO, Max power output and the RMS or rated output would probably be about 4 x 10WRMS or less.

RMS is not Max power, RMS power is oftem refered to as rated power. A modern headunit will put out approx 20wrms @ 10%THD (total harmonic distortion) An amp rated to put out 30-40 wrms per channel will usually be rated at under 1%THD, thus an amp with the extra power along with less distortion will allow speakers to play clearer at louder volumes compared to a headunit.

To maximise your sound systems potential, some sort of control unit can be placed between the head unit and amps or speakers. These are often sound processors, but your system head unit could have a lot of these facilities.

Generally not need with todays headunits, as you say - headunits have a lot of these functions. Unless your a car audio freak/geek like myself, then there is not much need for external processors.

Amps to drive the speakers are a must, when you have speakers with rated power output of 35 & 40WRMS, you would need at least half their respective power to drive them successfully, but never ever use amps with rated RMS power higher than the nominal rating of the speakers.

You can use amps with a higher rated power than the speakers rated capabilities, you have to be cautious when setting the gains to stop a clipped signal from being sent to the speakers, as this can easily damage speakers. Again, for your average Joe, an amp rating (using RMS figures) similar to the capability of your speakers is recomended.

I run 180wrms to each of my midbass drivers, they are rated to take 90wrms.

You don't need to buy huge output amp or amps. An amp of 4 x 20 or 30 WRMS would be excellent and give you some safety margin. This can be done by using just 1 4 channel, or 2 x 2channel amps.

Very true

I'm using an Graphic Equalizer between my head unit and amps, as I don't have the same features in my head unit as the modern ones.

I am going through a similar exercise right now, but unlike you I have vintage issues.

My HR30, built in 1984 and fairly rare in Oz, 5 that I know of, was designed with a separate am/fm radio & a cassette player. In the most part all in this era were post mount and hence I am using an '86 model post mount head unit.

Kenwood KRC-200A AM/FM Radio Cassette head unit.

This comes as a 4 channel system and probably 4 x 25 W max.

This model uses 5 & 8 pin DIN plugs for low input, interconnect leads and have to be made, unlike the modern units use RCA.

I have a Kenwood KGC-4400 Graphic Equalizer which has control facility for 50hz, 200hz 800hz, 3.2Khz & 12.8Khz frequency bands, plus fader control, sub woofer control (on/0ff) plus 50/80/150Hz frequency choice bands & level control. This has 4 leads out the back for front amp, rear amp, sub amp & connection to head unit.

These can be purchased on ebay fairly cheaply if you want to go down this track, some Pioneer units and using RCA connections.

I have 2 amps, front is Kenwood KAC 5020, 2 channel 25WRMS output and will drive Pioneer 4" splits TS-C1002 rated at 150W max and 50W Nominal. Rear is KAC-7020, 2 channel 45WRMS and will drive a good pair of 6 x 9's.

Frequency response, sensitivity & power handling are the 3 biggies in speakers as far as I'm concerned.

Good points, however, how they sound is the most important for me. Goes without saying I suppose.

Once you choose your given power handling capability, it's time to choose the best speakers that will serve you best.

Sorry, have to disagree, speakers first (choose the best sounding to your ears in your price range). Of course if you already have amps, you may be limited on your choice if there are any incompatability issues.

TS-C1002 up front are rated with 70~25000Hz and 90db @ 1W/1M. As 4' speakers go, that's about as good as they get.

I doubt a 4" cone will play 70hz loud and clear even though they are rated to play down to this. More likely to play nicely down to 120hz-200hz.

Thanks to some recommendation from this forum, I will probably go with Pioneer TS-A6971E 6 x 9's rated with 25~30000hz and 93db @ 1W/1M. Power handling 320W max & 80WRMS.

Something to remember that the BOOM BOOM rap mad teenagers don't do, is that the human ear cannot hear below 20Hz, it can be felt, but not heard. As our cars are far from the perfect sound room, I can't see any point in having speakers that respond to less than 25/30Hz.

Most reasonable 6 x 9's do this, so why do we need subs.

I have never heard a 6x9 play a clear note below 70hz. Yes you will get some bass, not below 30hz, and more than likely not nice crisp clear bass. A 6x9 is a good cheap alternative to not having a sub. Having said that, there are some nice expensive 6x9's that will sound quite nice. With a sub, you have the ability to make and tune an enclosure to get the most accurate sound reproduction.

Cheers, D

Again I don't mean to have a go, I just like there to be more accurate information regarding car audio.

Good on ya for using old skool gear, good to see it's not going to waste, but if your not running a CD player, you really should think about it aye!

[Ghostrider]

Thanks Rocketboy,

I asked a similar question to this some time back and got next to no replies.

As I said, I'm trying to stay in vogue with the era of the vehicle and the KRC-2000A head unit is the best I can find (post mount) that has features anything like newer models.

My problem now is the interconnect cables, they have 5 & 8 pin DIN plugs, not RCA. This is not a real problem, as I have drawings to make them, any length I want and as Kenwood only use 4 of the 5 or 8 pins, the 5 pin plugs can be bought from Jaycar.

Next on the menu, I went out and bought the TS-C1002's as I am not about to start hacking into door trims that cannot be replaced, so the dash provides placement of 4" and the splits have to be better than dual cone.

Rear speakers are still on the list, I haven't bought them yet and am open to any and all suggestions.

Finding any amps that are compatible to this now very old Kenwood system, is a major exercise in procurement.

I have a collection of 3. An KAC-5020 rated @ 2 x 20WRMS, KAC-7020 rated @ 2 x 45WRMS and KAC-8020 rated @ 2 x 85WRMS.

The 4" splits are rated @ 50W nominal, so I was planning to drive them with the 5020 and whatever I buy for 6 x 9's, drive with the 7020. The 8020 is huge in comparison to the other 2, about 300 x 250 x 60mm and rather difficult to mount anywhere even a little obscure.

The idea of the Eq was simply to join them all together.

I do have another option, which was the original plan.

Drive the front 4" splits with the 2 x 45WRMS, use a set of Beltek mid mount 4" 2 way (splits, but in the same housing) driven by the 2 x 20WRMS as fill sound and have 2 x 10" subs in the boot, that could be taken out if I needed the space or offload some weight on comp days.

Penny for your thoughts and ideas.

Cheers, D

[Ghostrider]

Oh! forgot to read your last bit.

The idea was to drive the 2 x 10" subs with the 8020 (2 x 85WRMS) and mount the amp on the back of the sub box.

I have an old style boom box (one of those things that had the subs, mid range and a horn tweeter in them) it measures at about 27L per side and if the Jaycar info is correct, I need to buy a 7" vent for it and it should be just dandy for 10" subs.

I know it doesn't look real flash, but nobody sees it in the boot eh!

As for CD's, didn't elaborate on that but have 2 x Kenwood KDC-C63FM modulated 10 stackers, 1 of which to go in the boot.

I know FM modulated isn't the optimum, but it's the only way if I'm going to stay in vogue.

Cheers, D