Aftermarket R32 Gtr Callipers

[shanef]

Hi guys

I'm in the process of sorting out which brake package i'm going to use for my 32 gtr so i can get my new rims.

Now i have been doing a bit of research but nothing comparing different companys products. So far i've looked at GREX 6 pot 355mm front GREX 4 pot 330mm rear, CSC 6 pot 355mm front 4 pot 330mm rear, ENDLESS 6 pot 375mm front 4 pot 335mm rear, BREMBO F40 6 pot 355mm front 4 pot 335mm rear & what PROJECT MU offers

Now which one would honestly perform the best? What i want out of the system is to run it on the track and to also do hillclimbs etc.

I know i can get the GREX ones for $5300 front & rear but i could get the ENDLESS ones for $6400, is the bigger rotors in the ENDLESS kit really worth the extra $1100?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

Shane

[NateR31]

what are you using the car for that you need somting like that? whats wrong with some R34 GTR brembos?

[shanef]

What i want out of the system is to run it on the track and to also do hillclimbs etc.

Well seeing as the r34 brembos go for $2600 for a front set, and a brand new GREX front kit cost $2800 id rather go the GREX kits.

What i'm after is technical information and opinions and past experience.

[Ronin 09]

Now i have been doing a bit of research but nothing comparing different companys products. So far i've looked at GREX 6 pot 355mm front GREX 4 pot 330mm rear, CSC 6 pot 355mm front 4 pot 330mm rear, ENDLESS 6 pot 375mm front 4 pot 335mm rear, BREMBO F40 6 pot 355mm front 4 pot 335mm rear & what PROJECT MU offers

I know i can get the GREX ones for $5300 front & rear but i could get the ENDLESS ones for $6400, is the bigger rotors in the ENDLESS kit really worth the extra $1100?

- GREX 6 pots are a copy of the AP CP5555... but cheaper. Don't know if they work as well as the APs

- Brembo F40 are a 4 pot front, not a 6 pot.

- CSC look good value for what they are - engineer is ex-Harrop. One of the boys on here is running front and rear CSC kit, can't remember who.

- pretty sure R34GTR fronts can be had for ~1500... Snowman was selling his - don't know if he's sold them yet...

Do a search through the braking section, you'll find the thread.

[Gav]

I'm very happy with the 4 pot CSC brakes that I'm running. Huge improvement over std GT-R brakes with Pagid pads.

Have a look in my gallery for a pic.

Cheers

Gav

- GREX 6 pots are a copy of the AP CP5555... but cheaper. Don't know if they work as well as the APs

- Brembo F40 are a 4 pot front, not a 6 pot.

- CSC look good value for what they are - engineer is ex-Harrop. One of the boys on here is running front and rear CSC kit, can't remember who.

- pretty sure R34GTR fronts can be had for ~1500... Snowman was selling his - don't know if he's sold them yet...

Do a search through the braking section, you'll find the thread.

[Roy]

Im the first person to say go all out on brakes....but dependign on what tracks you run at, and certainly hill climbs you will find that you may not need brakes that send you broke.

I doubt you will find you drop lap times a whole lot if you use the same rubber, provided there is nothing faulty with the std brakes. And for spritns you only get two hot laps so you only need enough brakes for a few stops...

[shanef]

Last nite i read through the 3 page topic from 2004 on brakes, set-ups etc.

I pose this: If i paid for someone with alot of knowledge to fly up here to QLD and set my car up, would anyone be interested in doing it? (yourself roy, sk or others)

[djr81]

Last nite i read through the 3 page topic from 2004 on brakes, set-ups etc.

I pose this: If i paid for someone with alot of knowledge to fly up here to QLD and set my car up, would anyone be interested in doing it? (yourself roy, sk or others)

Can I pose the following question (Please don't take this the wrong way, as it is intended to help)

Set what up - the suspension, brakes, motor? The start point needs to be for you to figure out what you want to do with the car & how far you want to go with making it biased towards the track/drags or whatever. Then you need to consider how much money you are prepared to tip into the whole thing (Both initially & on an ongoing basis). Only then can you really start to make decisions on the set up. A bit of clear thought now may save you a heap of money & allow you to enjoy your car much more.

To use Roy's point as an example - if you are doing sprint days the $5k spent on a brake upgrade can be spent on other things (Mostly tyres & suspension) to make the car lap a whole lot quicker than just with a brake upgrade.

To use another example - the amount of -ve camber, rake & roll bar settings for the same springs/dampers will change depending on what kind or tyres you use eg roadies or R compounds.

Learning how to drive a car better is one of the best methods of going quicker (I don't know how much track work you have done, perhaps heaps, perhaps not) as well as being the most fun. To this end a cheap data logger (eg a G-Tech RR at about $500) can help improve your braking no end by allowing you to look at how well you are modulating the pedal, particularly on down shifts.

[shanef]

Set-up my brakes and/or suspension also I presume if u knew a lot about bakes, it’s safe to say u’d have a fair understanding of suspension aspects too.

That’s what I’m doing. Getting all the info together and plan out the areas and modifications for the car, as one area would influence another area of the car (i.e brakes used will influence the wheels I use)

Basically the car will be used in circuit racing and will be set-up for this only. Also I’d want to run in hillclimbs and maybe some other events, but I wouldn’t focus on set-pu for that over circuit work But im sure it’ll also see a few drag days in it’s time, but I don’t want to worry about set-up for the drags.

I’m currently putting together my engine specs as my engine let go on the weekend. It will be an rb26/30, Garrett gtrs’s and supporting gear for 700engineHP (I have an excel spreadsheet if anyone is interested in having a look and making some suggestions).

The suspension set-up will be one of sydneykids full suspension kits.

Hopefully that gives you guys a rough idea of what I’m after and it will better guide you on giving me guidance…if that makes sense

[djr81]

Sort of.

By circuit racing do you mean sprint events/track days or actual racing? If the latter which category are you intending on running in? I ask this because the category rules may well go a long way to defining what it is you are able to do to the car.

With regard to wheel sizes there are a couple of things to note:

Basically the wheel diameter is largely dictated by the rotor diameter & the caliper size. A 324mm rotor (ie from an R33 GT-R) will fit in a 17" rim where as if you go an inch up (to 350mm or there abouts) you need 18" rims. (There are some exceptions)

When selecting a wheel for circuit work get the lightest one possible - this usually means an Enkei, Volk or similar. Note that a 17" will be lighter than an 18". Also a 17" tyre is much cheaper than an 18" in the same width.

[dangerous_daveo]

Also, would it be street driven at all? As this would surely have to influence your decision as well.

[shanef]

yes dave it would be street driven, this will affect the choce of pads as i'd need to run a set that will give relatively good cold temp performance. Saying that it does not get driven daily so there would be some lenience there.

Stating the above, i wouldnt be looking into actually racing, but that could change in 5 or so years.

i was looking into a set of Volk TE37's, in either 18" or 17", but i can't make a definate choice until i have chosen the brake package.

What do you run?

[Beer Baron]

i think you were on the right track. pay roy his regular $2500 consult fee and expenses (basically just airfare and a place to stay) and get him to spend 3 days or so looking at your set-up and advising you on some 'whole of car' tuning. I did and i've never looked back. the only trouble is i know he is very busy but just hassle him to come. he doesnt do it for the money, but he loves taking on new projects and imparting some wisdom.

[shanef]

Sounds like you've been nominated roy

What is the pricing for the different manufactures anyone know? (cheapest to most expensive)

[djr81]

yes dave it would be street driven, this will affect the choce of pads as i'd need to run a set that will give relatively good cold temp performance. Saying that it does not get driven daily so there would be some lenience there.

Stating the above, i wouldnt be looking into actually racing, but that could change in 5 or so years.

i was looking into a set of Volk TE37's, in either 18" or 17", but i can't make a definate choice until i have chosen the brake package.

What do you run?

A car set up for the track with R compounds & the suspension tweaked to handle/grip well on the track is no longer huge amounts of fun on the road - mine isn't any more.

For pads as good a starting point as any are Ferodo DS2500's. I just bought some for my R32 & will give them a run shortly. They have good friction coefficients, work ok from cold (for hill climbs etc) & don;t cost the earth.

In go faster order you should be doing the suspension then the motor & then the brakes. My 300rwhp will beat a number of 400rwhp around Wanneroo simply because it is set up better. Of course sh!tloads of hp never hurts your lap times...

I don't want to rain on Roy's parade, but for me setting the car up & figuring out how to go faster is as much fun as doing the driving. Paying someone else to do it sort of defeats the purpose of the exercise.

[shanef]

I had DBA 4000's front and rear, DS2500's up front and rb74's on the rear of my old r33 which i just swapped for this gtr. I thought seeing as i'd be doing a fair bit of track work i'd need some aftermarket callipers, but it doesnt seem that i need to go that far.

Reason i was going to aim for that much hp is the fact that the engine just let go and i dont want to do things twice. But saying that i could build the block and just hold on the supporting mods and when the time comes for more hp all i'd have to do is bolt on the parts.

I love doing things myself to the car and seeing what they affect and the way in which they affect the car, but i wouldnt have the foggiest how to set it up (suspension & brakes) without some knowledgeable input.

Simply, what would you suggest. Go for the same set-up i had on my 33 (rotors & pads wise) or go to aftermarket callipers, rotors & other pads?

[dangerous_daveo]

yes dave it would be street driven, this will affect the choce of pads as i'd need to run a set that will give relatively good cold temp performance. Saying that it does not get driven daily so there would be some lenience there.

Stating the above, i wouldnt be looking into actually racing, but that could change in 5 or so years.

i was looking into a set of Volk TE37's, in either 18" or 17", but i can't make a definate choice until i have chosen the brake package.

What do you run?

Not knowing exactly what you have already done with your brakes, Id just like to share my experence. It might save you money, or help make your decesion to upgrade.

I just redid my brakes. All new rotors, slotted on the front (rear slotted werent avalible) new good quality pads, new braided lines, calipers rebuilt, and the master cyl was rebuilt about 3 months ago, new motul 600 fluid. Then with SK suspension, and new front tyres. The thing pulls up a LOT faster. I mean before I could stand on the pedal it would stop but felt like eons. Now its very very little pedal effort compaired to before, I havent stamped on them as I feel it will just lock up and put me in to a wall or something, and its not because I have cheap tyres, as I dont.

But just the brake stuff cost me $1400, and I got the rotors at near on DBA staff prices, and everything else at trade. So thing is, do you go the rebuild, or do you sell your gear, and get new stuff. You need to look at cost to fun factor. If its just sprints, all you are really racing is the clock, there is no race winnings or sponsourship at stake. So if bigger brakes just locks up your exxy R tyres you wont be having a lot of fun. You are better of spending the money else where, or just not at all.

The SK suspension tho, its just awesome. Cant go wrong there, it money WELL spent.

[djr81]

I had DBA 4000's front and rear, DS2500's up front and rb74's on the rear of my old r33 which i just swapped for this gtr. I thought seeing as i'd be doing a fair bit of track work i'd need some aftermarket callipers, but it doesnt seem that i need to go that far.

You will find that only when you get the cars handling sorted can you really get stuck into the brakes late in the braking zone. To this end a set of slotted DBA 4000's & some DS2500 are a very good start. Match it with a Cusco brake stopper (The firewall flexes a scary amount on r32's), some Motul RBF 600 fluid & some braided lines at the front & you will have 90% of the braking performance of the flash gear for less than half the price. Just remember to absolutely mash the pedal at the start of the braking zone - that is where the time is to be found, modulate the pedal carefully & not use too many revs on the heal/toe downchange

Reason i was going to aim for that much hp is the fact that the engine just let go and i dont want to do things twice. But saying that i could build the block and just hold on the supporting mods and when the time comes for more hp all i'd have to do is bolt on the parts.

Good thought. Be careful with the oiling system, however.

I love doing things myself to the car and seeing what they affect and the way in which they affect the car, but i wouldnt have the foggiest how to set it up (suspension & brakes) without some knowledgeable input.

Best bet is to trundle down to your local technical book store & buy yourself something like Carroll Smith's Tune to Win, or similar. Once you have garnered a fundamental understanding of what change affects what you can combine it with the extensive posts on this website as to where the R32's sensitivities lie. Mostly this is rake & camber adjustments. Also a cheap data logger will tell you whether or not a change has improved the car & importantly where.

Simply, what would you suggest. Go for the same set-up i had on my 33 (rotors & pads wise) or go to aftermarket callipers, rotors & other pads?

I would recommend starting with the stock gear then once you find it is limiting your lap times then go for an upgrade. You will be able to recoup a fair proportion of your outlay as people do chase the R32 gear.

Remember it is about how much fun you have, not how much bling you have or how much money you spend. That and invariably someone else has a quicker car. Hell I have turned up to sprint event & found old F3000 cars entered.

[Roy]

LOL @ Beer Baron. I wish someone was silly enough to pay me money for my dribble.

I will say this. There is plenty of good advice, but very few of us have enough practical and technical experience to be charging anyone anything, many of us should keep our mouths shut with regards to the advice we offer as we havent done/experienced things ourselves and we could easily lead ppl to spending lots of money for no real benefit. ..and yes im referring to myself above

That all said, if you are serious about building a car that will be competitive at club sprints, at more then just one track, then i would suggest the following.

Suspension.

No disrespect to Whiteline, Bilsteins or any of SK advice / gear etc. But on a punchy 450rwkws GTR that will weight at least 1500kgs by the time you have your cage, brakes, cooling etc installed...well i think you are well beyond the limits of what SK's kits are intended for.

So whilst the gear in the kit is what you need for a nicely behaved car, perhaps the actual specifications of what you end up with need to be tweaked to reflect the advanced state of tune that your car will be running.

So bigger swaybars, higher rate springs, better quality shock absorbers. And getting back to how many tracks will you realistcally be running at...a bit of adjustability in the shock/spring will go a long way. You can change springs in about 15 mins a corner and tweak the bump & rebound to suit a track or conditions.

So based on the above, if your suspension is Rolls Royce so your wheels contact with the road is maximised, your corner speed is increased, and you will find you are on the brakes less. Ditto if you have Rolls Royce wheels you reduce unsprung weight so help the shocks/springs react to track undulations etc.

So if i had some serious coin i would be spending it on the suspension and wheels. It will improve braking, it will improve lap times and whilst all expensive it will give you tangible gains

Now getting back to the weight of the car and the grunt you are bound to have... i suspect again you will need brakes far more serious then anything DBA can readily offer.

The bigger the rotor the better. You are less likely to lock brakes as you have so much more braking torque and feel. They have far more thermal capacity so wont boil fluid or cook pads as quick. But they do weigh a tonne, which hurts the suspension aspect of it again. And also the large rotors often mean expensive calipers, which if you choose poorly can leave you with a limited range of pad compounds that are all very expensive.

So not knowing what tracks you will be driving on, i would suggest 355mm diam x 35.5mm thick vaned rotors with a good 6 pot caliper will be the biz. If you chose your wheel and caliper carefully it will all run inside a 17" wheel which is another bonus. I wouldnt personally upgrade to a 4 pot rear caliper. My pick would be a bigger twin piston caliper with a bump in rotor diameter and thickness.

...and to add you have all the basics, like making sure your master cylinder and brake booster are healthy. Lines healthy. And dont forget a bit of lazy airlfow for cooling the rotors is always a cheap way to keep brakes cool, so make sure your R32 has the plastic undertray attached with the guides for the std brakes.

That all said, depending what state you are in, go to the track and talk to the owners of the cars doing the times, and speak to the workshops working on those cars....best place to start.

...and i wouldnt be buying off the shelf Endless/Mu etc brake setups over the AP/Alcon kits

[Sydneykid]

As someone who races on his own budget and manages a race team that has a much larger budget, let me impart some wisdom as I see it.

1. Braking distance is mostly about tyres, standard R32GTR brakes (in good condition) will easily out brake any road tyre (ie; activate the ABS, if fitted, or lock up the wheels, if no ABS). Even “R” type tyres can be outbraked by standard R32GTR components. It is not until you get to full slick racing tyre that you will find more grip in the tyre than the brakes can provide.

2. Suspension set up is the next largest contributor, excessive negative camber, to high spring and stabiliser bar rates, too much anti dive, unsophisticated shock valving etc. The suspension set up will have a great effect on the effectiveness of the brakes.

3. Note the use of the words “brakes in good condition”, that means service the callipers, slotted rotors, braided lines, high CoF pads, suitable brake fluid and don’t forget the wheel bearings. So many guys spend $thousands on upgrading the brakes, when all they really needed was a decent service.

Now it’s time to think about what “racing” really means. If you are talking true “circuit racing” as per CAMS then you need to know what category/class you are going to race in. Simplistically you have three choices;

A. Production Cars, the R32GTR N1 won the NSW Combined Touring championship last year. Other than brake pads, shocks and springs it is 100% “standard” as per the N1 homologation papers. Control tyre is the Yokohama A048R on the standard 17 X 8” rim.

B. Improved Production, the R32GTR finished second in the NSW Combined Touring championship last year. Forget 700 bhp, the mandatory turbo restrictor/restrictors means 400 bhp is about it. Control tyre nationally is also the Yokohama A048R on an 8” wide rim (max).

C. Sport Sedans, full bespoke chassis cars, carbon fibre bodies, less than half the weight of an R32GTR with 700 bhp 6 litre V8’s. Much faster than a V8Supercar. Using full slick racing tyres. Not a good class to run in with a “modified road car” if you want to be competitive.

Take a look around the motorsport scene, look at what GTR’s are successfully competing in, Targa’s, Tas, Duttons, East Coast etc and Production Car racing. At the moment there is only 1 X GTR running in Improved Production, the SSS built one and it is nowhere near competitive yet. Then you have a whole bunch of guys running super sprints, lap dashes, hillclimbs very effectively in GTR’s competing in the classes for “Imported Cars”, limited editions etc. Hillclimbs are 1 or 2 stops per run, so monster brakes (for heat rejection) are simply not required, going up hill means keep the weight down, monster brakes (and the wheels to fit hem) are heavy. Lap Dashes are 3 laps, so monster brakes (for heat rejection) are simply not required.

There are number of guys that do what I term “drive days”, where they do 20 to 30 minute “sessions”. These are the guys that run the monster brakes. But I don’t call that “racing”, there are no classes, no categories, no rules about what you can and can’t do. So it is really just a money spending test, “my wallet is bigger than yours, so I win”.

The bottom line, I reckon an R32GTR would do faster lap times if you spent $6K on suspension and $1K on brakes than if you spent $2K on suspension and $5K on brakes. Which is basically what Roy said above.

cheers

Edited May 17, 2006 by Sydneykid