Undercover Police With P-plates

[GTR32GUS]

This is a old trick the cop use , the town i grew up in there was one old cop that done it every second weekend

[Guest Mashrock]

there are a few getting around the city.

turbo 6's with p plates on them i seem them quiet often pulling over poor innocent skylines.. and motorcycles

if its a proper undercover car, the first giveaway is the dark tint..

and i have noticed lpg stickers or something similar on the plates.. check that out next time you see one.

plus the little box on the dash..

[jantolis]

So pretty much don't race xr6t's with p's on the streets.

[siksII]

on the topic of undercover cars, just to give a heads up to people, on cleaveland st surry hills and surrounding areas there are two ford FPV GTs getting around, one blue with white stripes, another white with blue stripes.

both have dark tints are and undercover cars. i have seen them as the chase car for radar traps and also just cruising around, one time they came up behind me slowly, i knew who they were right away and so when they came next to me (both going like 10km/h) i was staring in their window and they were staring in mine, it was kind of funny, sort of like me saying i know who u are and them checking me out lol

[Liz]

on the topic of undercover cars, just to give a heads up to people, on cleaveland st surry hills and surrounding areas there are two ford FPV GTs getting around, one blue with white stripes, another white with blue stripes.

Ive seen a white one with blue stripes around the Hornsby-Berowra on the Pacific Highway... tried to get me to take the bait.

[Jayla]

Ive seen a couple of XR8s around my area an also a camry too. They are getting better an better these days. I heard at one stage at the drags(illegal) they had skylines an wrx too they were racing cars than booking an impounding the cars. After my friend got caught on the GWH I am more cautious now as you never know who is who and if they are a cop or not.

[Guest Mashrock]

Ive seen a white one with blue stripes around the Hornsby-Berowra on the Pacific Highway... tried to get me to take the bait.

haha i had the f**kers try bait me once also. wound down the window and told the passenger that they are wasting their time. off or on the street i'm still going to murder them..

[Kel]

Ummmm caught is caught as far as I'm concerned- whether it's by an undercover showing P plates or a cop in a normal patrol car.

It's your decision whether you speed/ race on the street- it doesn't make it any less of a crime if you've been egged on by an undercover- it's your foot not theirs on the accelerator.

At least an undercover might stop you before you do yourself or someone else serious damage.

[scathing]

It's your decision whether you speed/ race on the street- it doesn't make it any less of a crime if you've been egged on by an undercover- it's your foot not theirs on the accelerator.

Agreed.

My issue is why the cops should be allowed to break the law? And its not something minor to be able to respond / attend a crime as soon as possible. Their actions to incite others to commit crimes, yet they are not held accountable when they themselves do the same thing.

It takes 2 to race - it doesn't make it any less of a crime if you've got a badge - if you invite some random guy minding their own business to race, you just filled out your entry form.

[Kel]

Agreed.

My issue is why the cops should be allowed to break the law? And its not something minor to be able to respond / attend a crime as soon as possible. Their actions to incite others to commit crimes, yet they are not held accountable when they themselves do the same thing.

It takes 2 to race - it doesn't make it any less of a crime if you've got a badge - if you invite some random guy minding their own business to race, you just filled out your entry form.

I see your point but also having seen the result of people engaging in street racing (and even ridicoulous speeding) alongside "random guys- I stand by my comments.

I'd much rather see someone lose a licence instead of a life- regardless of whether a cop incited them to behave that way. The way I see it? If the cop didn't start it, the next bloke coming along in a WRX etc etc etc would.

We all go a bit funny behind the wheel of a performance car- it's hard to realise at the time but I'd much rather a cop giving me and my hip pocket a lesson (marked or unmarked car), versus me killing someone street racing or speeding.

[lwells]

Agreed.

My issue is why the cops should be allowed to break the law? And its not something minor to be able to respond / attend a crime as soon as possible. Their actions to incite others to commit crimes, yet they are not held accountable when they themselves do the same thing.

It takes 2 to race - it doesn't make it any less of a crime if you've got a badge - if you invite some random guy minding their own business to race, you just filled out your entry form.

Ummmm.. because they are not "breaking the law"? Police are not normal citizens and have special powers granted to them under law. If they did not, practically everything they do as part of their job would be illegal.

[Mr Italy!]

Ummmm.. because they are not "breaking the law"? Police are not normal citizens and have special powers granted to them under law. If they did not, practically everything they do as part of their job would be illegal.

Police still have to abide by the law. Just because they have power doesnt mean they are above the law. If they are caught doing something illegal, they should be given a tougher punishment then the average Joe blogs on the street. They know the law, they know their policies, and if they slip up they should pay dearly for their actions.

It's their business to know whats right and whats wrong, and if they cannot even do that then why are they a police officer.

[lwells]

Police still have to abide by the law.

Yes, obviously. However, I again repeat: they are subject to a different set of laws (in certain circumstances). I'm not quiet sure why people are having so much trouble with this. Look, if they were subject to the exact same laws, even arresting someone would be illegal (it could be construed as assault and depreiving someone of their liberty). They wouldn't be allowed to chase other cars (dangerous driving), breach the speed limit (speeding), break down doors to save and/or arrest people (trespass, property damage), the examples are endless.

Sorry, but to me it just sounds like some people are trying to make excuses: "oh, yes I am against street racing *but* its so unfair for police to encourage it". Its not illegal. Its not entrapment. Street racing is for morons.

[funkymonkey]

one of the SAU VIC members is a policeman Traffic branch too from memory... has a highly modified GTR

[siksII]

to me it is the same as a cop selling or buying drugs to someone on the street to try and catch them, this is fine with me and i believe a comparable example to baiting people to race on the street.

Im sure most of you would think the drug example is fine, and therefore why not bait people to street race etc. ?

[scathing]

Sorry, but to me it just sounds like some people are trying to make excuses: "oh, yes I am against street racing *but* its so unfair for police to encourage it". Its not illegal. Its not entrapment. Street racing is for morons.

Its not entrapment purely because entrapment isn't illegal in this country. US cops can't get away with it there, because entrapment is illegal in America.

The spirit in which the dispensations are granted is that they are necessary to enforce the law once it has been breached. In other the cases you've listed, where police do things that are not permitted an ordinary citizens they're all reactive rather than proactive. Cops can only arrest, give chase, or force entry into the property of someone they suspect of commiting a crime. Cops can't smash down your door arrest you, and then go looking for something to charge you with afterwards.

Up until they have reasonable grounds to suspect someone, they have no dispensation to the laws the rest of us have to obey. For example, cops can't run red lights unless the sirens are going, and they can't fire up the sirens unless they're on their way to a scene / chasing a suspect down. If they do run a red light outside of that, then its illegal. Why do you think cops will overtake a whole bunch of other cars to RBT you when they pull you over if you haven't been speeding / driving dangerously / any other visible infringement...and then ask you where you're heading or to pop the bonnet? Its a loophole that lets them stop you without having an actual charge, which is otherwise required to detain you.

In the case given originally (cops winding up people to street race), no crime has been commited at that point. They could quite easily suspect some chromied-up, lowered, big exhaust fitted import might be amenable to a bit of street racing....but our society is yet to introduce thoughtcrime.

However, in inciting people to race they themselves have become a participant. Which is a crime. They have no grounds to suspect that other person is, so there should be no dispensation to enforce the law, since no laws have been breached. Hence, my assertion that what they're doing is not legal.

I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with the concept of causality.

Are undercover cops who don't identify themselves allowed to go around pushing or threatening people, and then charge them with assault / affray if the person pushes back or punches on? Because winding up a random guy who wasn't otherwise going to drag you into doing so is no different in principle. And that is what I take exception to.

I reckon street racing is for morons, but two wrongs don't make a right and the end does not justify the means. I'm all for police doing what is necessary to catch criminals, but I'm not for cops doing what is necessary to create criminals.

[lwells]

Its not entrapment purely because entrapment isn't illegal in this country. US cops can't get away with it there, because entrapment is illegal in America.

Yes, I am more than aware of that, thank you My point was its not entrapment as originally suggested because it doesn't exist.

As for your other points, yes I listed primarily reactive police powers; I don't have time to list every single example. I think the example listed above of an undercover drug bust is quite good. Stop and search powers are similar. In niether case has the law necessarily been breached before police act, rather there is merely the suspicion that a criminal act may take place. The fact that one is driving around in a high performance car is perhaps enough to suggest that you are a person of interest.

[scathing]

to me it is the same as a cop selling or buying drugs to someone on the street to try and catch them, this is fine with me and i believe a comparable example to baiting people to race on the street.

What about cops pushing drugs to catch people? Because there is a world of difference.

If someone approaches a police officer to buy or sell drugs then that person has initiated the contact, and thus committed the crime. For me, that method is fine.

But if the cop goes out there inducing people to take something addictive, getting them hooked, and then busting them when they do take it or try to score after they get hooked....then to me its something else entirely.

[scathing]

Stop and search powers are similar. In niether case has the law necessarily been breached before police act, rather there is merely the suspicion that a criminal act may take place.

Are the police involved in the criminal act that may take place for these "stop and search" powers? Because in the street racing example they're not preventing a crime from happening, they're participating and then stopping it.

Like I said, like starting a fight and then arresting the other guy for brawling.

And have you got any links to this "stop and search" power?

I'm having a look at the LAW ENFORCEMENT (POWERS AND RESPONSIBILITIES) ACT 2002 - SECT 36, and every one of the conditions listed for a search requires them to suspect that a crime has been or is being commited.

There's that causality thing again. Its proving to be a real thorn in your side.

That Act is for NSW, but when I found the Qld act earlier on it also made it quite clear that the crime was in present and past tense. If you live in another state I'll leave it in your capable hands to provide some actual proof that the crime doesn't need to have been committed before they can just randomly stop and search you.

[lwells]

I should just clear something up. I reread what I wrote last night and it comes across as more argumentative than I wanted. I apologise. I was tired and in a hurry. There is not venom in my argument, even if it appeared otherwise.

Are the police involved in the criminal act that may take place for these "stop and search" powers? Because in the street racing example they're not preventing a crime from happening, they're participating and then stopping it.

No, that's a fair point, but I would point you again to police officers involved in undercover drug operations. Here's a nice example from WA regarding police soliciting prostitutes (from here)

The Prostitution Act 2000 (WA) provides for body searches to be carried out, but only by a person of the same sex as the person being searched (s29(1). In practice this is not consistently adhered to (personal observation, October 2000). The legislation also states that "cavity" searches may be performed by a doctor or nurse (s29(5) and that "reasonable force" can be used by police officers to ensure that such searches are carried out (s29(6). The Act does not specify that the doctor or nurse or any assisting police officers must be the same sex as the person being searched. In other words, any woman who is suspected of an intention to engage in an act of prostitution can, quite legally, be held down by one or more male police officers while her vagina and anus are searched by a male doctor. This can occur without any charges being laid and could legitimately happen to any woman who happened to be standing on a street corner waiting for a friend or a taxi.

A further section of the Act (s35) provides for police officers to engage in activities that would otherwise be illegal but for which, in the context of "detecting an offence", full immunity is afforded to the police officer. At the discretion of the Commissioner of Police, undercover officers may solicit people for the purposes of prostitution.

And have you got any links to this "stop and search" power?

I am at work at the moment so my time is somewhat limited. I will try and dig something up.

Edit: Here is another quite interesting use of police powers: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1621416.htm