Undercover Police With P-plates

[scathing]

I should just clear something up. I reread what I wrote last night and it comes across as more argumentative than I wanted. I apologise. I was tired and in a hurry. There is not venom in my argument, even if it appeared otherwise.

Its alright. I'm always argumentative, but sometimes its an effective way of sparking debate.

The prostitution one in WA is quite interesting. It'd be one of the few I've found where cops can solicit for a crime (last I checked, hiring a prostitute was illegal too) to find out if someone is a criminal.

Although I'm not sure why you'd cavity search a prostitute. Sure, their job entails inserting things in their cavity but if you caught them in the middle of an offense it should be quite obvious without such measures.

The other one, about getting a confession by false pretenses, is a bit iffy as well in my opinion. I realise they'd never have caught the guy had he not given it up to undercover cops but its on shakey legal ground too. I'm wondering why the defense attorney didn't just say that the guy was lying to try to get into the gang. He picked a famous crime that wasn't solved (so he could claim it as his without them calling his bluff, without shifting into the bounds of ridiculousness and claiming to have killed Azaria Chamberlain) and he picked that one.

Its not like the guy gave a sworn statement or affadavit that would be admissible in court as a confession when the undercover cops asked him about it. And, at that point, you can't prove that he wasn't lying and there's reasonable doubt. People lie in job interviews all the time.

It'd be quite a co-incidence that the guy happens to brag about the murder they suspected him of, but co-incidence isn't good enough. Also, if this was a "last ditch attempt" to catch the guy then there must have been others, so the guy might have been picked up for questioning in regards to it before. Once again adding plausibility to his lies, and something that can be corroborated by people who knew him.

....Just read it further, and I see other people (mainly lawyers both from a professional and academic background) have alluded to that fact as well. Although clearly not the judges that upheld the method.

[someonestolecc]

I don't believe so many people here are happy that coppers are engaged in this activity. What I see the problem to be is where do you draw the line?

If a copper's job once a week is to cruise in their modified GTR or RX4 or whatever every Friday and try to get people to race then they're just as bad as the people racing them. They're also just as bad as people who do that and aren't coppers.

The reason for this is that it's so arbitrary and there's no way of actually regulating this.

So in terms of, for example, posing as a whore to solicit johns and arrest them that's fine (well, stupid waste of time/resources imo but whatever) - simply because according to the law they have to actually BREAK the law, and if there's a john in a room with a whore we can reasonably expect he's there to have sex for money (which isn't being taxed/regulated and hence illegal).

On the other hand if someone is driving home and a cop RX4 gee's them into a race, yes they're stupid, but given the absence of that RX4 they may have never raced. The john on the other hand would still be paying money for sex.

So I think in this case that's gone over the line of what is proper behaviour in terms of law enforcement. I just believe the gains don't outweigh the time/money/resources and most importantly the culture promoted within the police force that it is OK to arrest people that way. It should really be an exception.

As an example of things going too far one of the biggest heroin busts into Australia was, in my opinion, a total sham. It started by Australian police arresting someone who then worked for them as an informant. The informant, trying to save his own skin identified one of his junkie "mates" as needing money. The police then told the informant to try to get this person to smuggle drugs - so they organised through their own resources buying a huge amount of heroin from S.E. Asia.

The informant was told to tell the junkie to go buy the drugs as he knew someone in S.E. Asia. The junkie told him he didn't have the money. The money was taken from Government funds by the police and given to the informant to give to the junkie. The junkie took this money, went to S.E. Asia, bought the drugs from an Australian agent (real drugs, since otherwise no crime would be being commited), brought them back into the country and was arrested. Baaam biggest heroin bust to date (it's been beaten now).

So.. I'm sure many people could say well it was his choice to do that. Well that's fine and well to say but really what you have is the law enforcement apparatus of the state, targeting a specific person who is inclined to this behaviour and providing them with a means to a crime they would never ever have hoped in gaining without the assistance of the state.

Sorry sounds like a waste of time and money to me. If I were commissioner I'd be concentrating on breaking the criminal organisations and putting in laws to publically execute sexual predators.

[lwells]

I don't believe so many people here are happy that coppers are engaged in this activity. What I see the problem to be is where do you draw the line?

If a copper's job once a week is to cruise in their modified GTR or RX4 or whatever every Friday and try to get people to race then they're just as bad as the people racing them. They're also just as bad as people who do that and aren't coppers.

The reason for this is that it's so arbitrary and there's no way of actually regulating this.

So in terms of, for example, posing as a whore to solicit johns and arrest them that's fine (well, stupid waste of time/resources imo but whatever) - simply because according to the law they have to actually BREAK the law, and if there's a john in a room with a whore we can reasonably expect he's there to have sex for money (which isn't being taxed/regulated and hence illegal).

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. How do you know that a john is going to solicit sex from someone else yet also know that someone caught street racing wouldn't otherwise? Seems like a bit of a stretch to me. In both cases the police are providing the opportunity for someone to commit a crime and the choice is ultimately made by the other party. Just because someone is "egging you on" doesn't mean you have to actually race them; showing some self control is part of being responsible on the roads.

Sorry sounds like a waste of time and money to me. If I were commissioner I'd be concentrating on breaking the criminal organisations and putting in laws to publically execute sexual predators.

Yes, I think there are two issues here. One is to do with the legality or otherwise of police behaviour (my views are obvious). The other is whether or not police *should* be engaged in this activity. I see this as a totally seperate issue. I would agree there are probably more important things they could be doing than cruising the streets trying to arrest potential street racers. However, as the enforcement arm of the government, the police are unfortunately subject to the whims of state and/or federal government (depending on the branch of the police).

Edit: Also this relates to your comment about people being "happy" that police engage is this sort of activity. Am I "happy about it"? Not really: as I said I think there are better uses of police resources. However I do not accept that this absolves people of their own responsibility in engaging in street racing or that police are involved in illegal activity and no better than street racers. Hope that makes it a bit clearer.

[mass_iv]

maybe the cop was a young officer and was still on their P's???

lol sounds a bit weird tho

[AdamsR33]

Well if you street race and get caught sucked in!!, there's drags on every weds night if you want to run up against anyone. street racing is illegal for a reason, ITS DANGEROUS! its your decision to race and it don't matter if the guy/girl next to you is egging you on, you don't have to. so if its a undercover cop egging you its still your decision to race or not.Please people leave it to the track/strip.

My 2c worth.

[jantolis]

Well if you street race and get caught sucked in!!, there's drags on every weds night if you want to run up against anyone. street racing is illegal for a reason, ITS DANGEROUS! its your decision to race and it don't matter if the guy/girl next to you is egging you on, you don't have to. so if its a undercover cop egging you its still your decision to race or not.Please people leave it to the track/strip.

My 2c worth.

The thing is, there isn't anything on on the weekends for this sorta stuff usually. I can't make wednesday night meets because of work and the time it takes me to get there most of the time. Saturday nights are much better for that. Street racing is also closer than the 45 hour drive.

By the way, i'm not talking about just racing off traffic lights and racing cars in traffic. I'm talking about industrial areas where the roads are straight and everyone there is there for one thing. Nobody from the public just accidently drives down these roads. So nobody innocent is really there.

[lwells]

The thing is, there isn't anything on on the weekends for this sorta stuff usually. I can't make wednesday night meets because of work and the time it takes me to get there most of the time. Saturday nights are much better for that. Street racing is also closer than the 45 hour drive.

By the way, i'm not talking about just racing off traffic lights and racing cars in traffic. I'm talking about industrial areas where the roads are straight and everyone there is there for one thing. Nobody from the public just accidently drives down these roads. So nobody innocent is really there.

See, to me that's just a pack of excuses to justify reckless driving. What if someone gets lost and happens to drive down your industrial estate? Or god forbid some pedestrian is crossing the road as you race down it?

There are just way too many variables on the public roads.

I'm not saying I, or anyone else, is perfect. I'm sure we've all probably accelerated a little bit too hard out of that corner, or driven a little over the speed limit, but actually racing others on the public road... that's just plain stupid IMHO.

[jantolis]

See, to me that's just a pack of excuses to justify reckless driving. What if someone gets lost and happens to drive down your industrial estate? Or god forbid some pedestrian is crossing the road as you race down it?

What is a pack of excuses??? The fact that i can't get to eastern creek on wednesday night. You don't beleive me about that or that no body gets lost and wanders down the streets people race on??? Thats why there is a car up the other end to flash if someone is coming. If there is a car coming they do get the right of way and everybody does get out of their way. Obviously we all no the risks about street racing. We do try and minimise the risk as much as we can even though it still is dangerous. Even if there are to many cars that are there i won't race.

There are just way too many variables on the public roads.

Agree. But more people get killed by things other than street racing on the streets.

I'm not saying I, or anyone else, is perfect. I'm sure we've all probably accelerated a little bit too hard out of that corner, or driven a little over the speed limit, but actually racing others on the public road... that's just plain stupid IMHO.

Funny thing is i actually drive at the speed limit at all other times. I only on very rare occasions give it a boot these days. Don't get me wrong either. I do understand the risks involved and all that but it's fun and exciting and i drive better than most motorists at all other times other than when racing. You would be hard pressed to find someone going look at that hoon racing on the streets during everyday driving.

[Liz]

This is sounding like a wind up to me.

I say whether a cop car is egging you on or not (as adam said) it is really your decision to race him or let him go.. and if you are weak, you'll race and deserve to lose your licence. I don't see a problem with this and nor do I see any point in pointing the finger at the Police saying he was doing it first!

Jantolis - Your excuses are somewhat skewed. Street racing is dangerous and what you are doing is illegal. It's all fun and exciting because you know what you are doing is wrong, so imagine the feeling when you actually get caught... or someone gets hurt. Won't be fun and games then.

Just make the trip to a track day, or make a trip to WSID after work on a Wed or even on one of their bigger events. Or even Driftland on a friday night. I mean honestly, there is a whole world of motorsport made available to us now that we don't need to get our thrills on the street.

ps.. 90% of motorists think they are above average drivers! (pps, I made that figure up but you get what I'm saying)

KNIBB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!

[jantolis]

This is sounding like a wind up to me.

I say whether a cop car is egging you on or not (as adam said) it is really your decision to race him or let him go.. and if you are weak, you'll race and deserve to lose your licence. I don't see a problem with this and nor do I see any point in pointing the finger at the Police saying he was doing it first!

It would be bad if the guy who the cop tried to race lost it then killed someone. Wonder if the cops would still be doing it then.

Jantolis - Your excuses are somewhat skewed. Street racing is dangerous and what you are doing is illegal. It's all fun and exciting because you know what you are doing is wrong, so imagine the feeling when you actually get caught... or someone gets hurt. Won't be fun and games then.

Yeah it probably won't feel good.

Just make the trip to a track day, or make a trip to WSID after work on a Wed or even on one of their bigger events. Or even Driftland on a friday night. I mean honestly, there is a whole world of motorsport made available to us now that we don't need to get our thrills on the street.

As i said i can't make wednesdays. I was going to go to the anzac day one but things happened and i ended up just spectating with a friend. How ofter are the bigger events.

ps.. 90% of motorists think they are above average drivers! (pps, I made that figure up but you get what I'm saying)

Yes that is most probably true. I'm just saying that i don't drive like a hoon even though i have a hoon mobile everyday.

KNIBB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!

lol... Man i can't think of what movie thats from now. It's gonna drive me crazy until i can figure it out.

Anyway i'm not gonna talk about street racing and me anymore, but as i said above "It would be bad if the guy who the cop tried to race lost it then killed someone. Wonder if the cops would still be doing it then.". If this was told to the public after this event happened i wonder what the general public would be thinking of the police doing this.

[Jago]

it's ok, in my area we get undercover falcon GT's and them GTP's, XR6 turbos too. A mate of mine even saw an XR6 turbo with green P plates and a tempe tyres sticker on the rear window as an undercover....

[Liz]

It would be bad if the guy who the cop tried to race lost it then killed someone. Wonder if the cops would still be doing it then.

Who knows!?!?!? They'll probably get an ass kicking.

But then again, you are saying your industrial area is safe... what if YOU lose control and YOU kill someone?

As i said i can't make wednesdays. I was going to go to the anzac day one but things happened and i ended up just spectating with a friend. How ofter are the bigger events.

Mate check the events section! There is plenty happening at the moment!!! All you gotta do is pick a day!

lol... Man i can't think of what movie thats from now. It's gonna drive me crazy until i can figure it out.

Billy Madison!!!! YEAH BABY!

Anyway i'm not gonna talk about street racing and me anymore, but as i said above "It would be bad if the guy who the cop tried to race lost it then killed someone. Wonder if the cops would still be doing it then.". If this was told to the public after this event happened i wonder what the general public would be thinking of the police doing this.

Please take a look at the first time I got you on this comment. lol.

[jantolis]

Who knows!?!?!? They'll probably get an ass kicking.

But then again, you are saying your industrial area is safe... what if YOU lose control and YOU kill someone?

Nothing is 100% safe. If i loose it and kill somone then that is 100% my fault unless the person who i hit was doing something illegal at the same time. I said i understand the risks.

If you ever go to these street races you will see it's not quite as bad as you make it out to be. You seem to think that there are public cars all the time going back and forth and we race and dodge cars and stuff. I reality there is a security car that comes from behind which everyone sees once every 20 mins or so. When there is a big crowd, you do tend to get idiots there. But i don't worry because it's not me doing the stupid things. I usually also stand behind where they race from. I might post a vid one day of how it is.

Don't know why i'm even posting. Your still gonna say that what if something happens stuff and YOU kill someone etc etc etc. I'll probably just say but we try to minimse the risks and say stuff about how nobody is in the area. The only people that are taking the risks are the people that go etc etc etc. This can go on for a while.

By the way, i've been to 1 track day and loved it 10x more than street racing. The thing is, i can't afford tyres every time i got out and it costs a hell of alot more. Next year when i finish uni i will probably stop going to street racing because i will hopefully dedicate my car to being a track car. Then i will start saying shit about street racing beeing bad and how they should take it to the track.

Billy Madison!!!! YEAH BABY!

Man that was driving me insane. For the last hour i've been thinking Varcity Blues or however you spell it.

[lwells]

I get the feeling you're just winding people up, but I guess I could be wrong

What is a pack of excuses??? The fact that i can't get to eastern creek on wednesday night. You don't beleive me about that or that no body gets lost and wanders down the streets people race on??? Thats why there is a car up the other end to flash if someone is coming. If there is a car coming they do get the right of way and everybody does get out of their way.

Your reasons are, to my mind, just a lot of excuses. Just because you don't have easy access to a circuit doesn't excuse you from the road rules. How do you know that nobody will exit a building in the industrial estate? Fact is, you don't. You can't control all the variables of the environment.

Obviously we all no the risks about street racing. We do try and minimise the risk as much as we can even though it still is dangerous. Even if there are to many cars that are there i won't race.

Yes, you (and whomever your racing with) know the risks. What about other motorists and pedestrians who inadvertently get caught up in your racing since there is no way you can guarantee someone won't accidentally get in the way? Even assuming only those knowing the risks are involved in an accident, what about the ambos/police/firies who have to come along and scrape up what's left? What about friends and relatives? What about the cost of the clearup? I dunno, it just seems like a very selfish attitude to me.

i drive better than most motorists at all other times other than when racing.

Famous last words As Liz said, and the RTA's statistics show, the majority of drivers overrate their own abilities, particularly younger men.

Your still gonna say that what if something happens stuff and YOU kill someone etc etc etc

Not, not at all. What *I* (and I can only speak for myself) am saying is not that you definitely will kill someone, as the odds are that you won't kill or injure anyone or even have a minor accident, but the even the slightest chance is not worth the risk of injuring or killing yourself, a fellow racer, or some innocent third party.

he thing is, i can't afford tyres every time i got out and it costs a hell of alot more

Err.. another excuse

If this was told to the public after this event happened i wonder what the general public would be thinking of the police doing this.

Getting a little bit more on topic: unless there was a spate of them, or the accident was truly horrific, my guess is the public reaction would be pretty muted. There's been dozens of high speed police chases that have ended in fatalities and not much has happened.

[scathing]

but actually racing others on the public road... that's just plain stupid IMHO.

Which brings me back to my original point. Why are cops allowed to be "plain stupid", in your humble opinion, whereas your average citizenry gets busted for it?

My belief on the matter probably got lost in the loads of posts I've made, so I'll reiterate it now.

I believe that everyone involved in street racing should get busted equally. As you said, its plain stupid (which I totally concur with) and you can't have a race with only 1 participant. By definition its not a race. And the law has to be consistent. No-one is outside the law.

If the cops are street racing (whether its to entrap or not) then they are risking innocent people's lives just as much as the white-cap wearing P plater in the grey import next to them. So the spirit in which the "street racing" laws were enacted apply to their actions. And since they are not responding to a crime when they initiate the street race, the dispensation for them to break the law shouldn't apply.

Its not like pretending to be a john to pick up hookers, which has no collateral damage. How many high speed chases (which I do personally agree with) have ended up in the suspect or the cop spinning out and crashing? In some cases injuring innocents? In the case of street racing they're not even responding to a crime, they're initiating one.

I'm not talking about the actions of random "sik bro" in his Skyline or Silvia. I'll fully agree that they're idiots. The concerns I'm expressing are about the actions of the police, and whether they're ethical or not. Law enforcement always has to take the high moral ground, or otherwise they lose the respect and support of the general populace.

[lwells]

Which brings me back to my original point. Why are cops allowed to be "plain stupid", in your humble opinion, whereas your average citizenry gets busted for it?

As I said in this post, I see the issue of whether police should be legally allowed to incite street racing as entirely distinct from whether or not they are allowed too. To reiterate what I said in linked post, I would agree its not necessarily a good use of police resources. In fact I would love to hear what the police themselves think of it as it seems to me its an entirely political solution. Coincidence that this practice is apparently more common in the aftermath of that spate of P-plater crashes? I think not.

The concerns I'm expressing are about the actions of the police, and whether they're ethical or not.

And its a very valid point you raise, but whether or not a law is "ethical" (I think perhaps you mean "just" rather than ethical) is distinct from whether or not something is legal or otherwise. As a sort of left-wing socialist pinko I have a huge issue with the ever increasing police powers and police-state trajectory we seem to be on. My main issue, however, was that regardless of the unjust or unethical nature of police action in this particular case I don't think its sufficient to use that as some sort of mitigating reason to explain what is clearly dangerous behavior.

So you see, after all of that, we in a sense share the same (or at least, one of the same) view.

[ranicx]

my 2c... if you break the law, and get caught doing it, then its your falut, no mater how you get caught.

and with the under cover police egging you on to do it, in the end its your choice. its no different from someone in the car egging you on to race another car on the street..

they arnt going to push the pedal, your the one doing it.

yeh it may be a sly way of booking people, but all its realy doing it weeding out the ones who are most liky to break the law and street race/drag another car.

[AdamsR33]

IMHO, i think the cops do it to catch the people who will do it, most of us here won't. cops aren't stupid they know what to look for in a street racer, WRX, skyline, EVO's they know what car to look out for so when they see one they see if he/she will race, the chances are if they race the cop they'd race anyone, so the cops gets them before they race again. being undercover obviously helps as no street racer would race a known cop car, and don't forget cops do actually get trained in advanced driving,my friend joined the force and he was not allowed to drive anything other than paddywagon, and then if he was called for an emergency he was not allowed to speed anyway, if they needed to get there that quick then he had to change drivers, people who street race don't usually do courses. Why, cause they think they are better the other driver.

Cops need to pass driving tests to be able to drive highway patrol cars, they don't pass they don't drive. So chances are if you race a cop he is a better driver then you and they probably wouldn't let the race go much over the speed limit, once they know they got you its all over racerboy.

Don't make excuses to justify street racing, you can't justify it. the risks far outweigh the fun to be had. I love racing, being track or strip but i can wait til i get there, its called self control. I think that the cops should do whatever it takes to get the street racers off the road. i have 2 wonderful kids that love my Skyline and want to go everywhere in it, i don't want their lives at risk by some young dump pimple infested p plater wanker just because he can't control his urge to try and prove his car is faster then mine.

Jantolis i'm sorry but you have gone down a few pegs to me. There's not justification for street racing!!!

[ranicx]

couldnt agree more nath95..

oh and just a side note. ive never been to a track day or a drag day. dont have the money, but i would never even consider street racing. its just plain stupid, not to mention ilegal.

im not sure if this has been said.. but in Auz, theres no such thing as an entrapment law as far as i know. thats only in the states

[scathing]

I don't think its sufficient to use that as some sort of mitigating reason to explain what is clearly dangerous behavior.

No, I don't think its a mitigating reason. Wrong is wrong.

I don't think the cops should be allowed to arrest / convict people based on that evidence, though, considering they are just as guilty of a crime. Its a technicality, but then people with good lawyers have gotten off for less.

Lets put it this way. If some cop A winds up a random person, and they street race, and cop B (who was not tipped off by cop A that the race was going to happen) catches them and books them both for street racing, I think that's fine. Consistent and fair. Just because a cop wound him up is not a mitigating factor to the fact that random person committed a crime. And just because the guy has a badge and a gun isn't a mitigating factor to the fact that cop A commited a crime.