Undercover Police With P-plates

[scathing]

Cops need to pass driving tests to be able to drive highway patrol cars, they don't pass they don't drive. So chances are if you race a cop he is a better driver then you and they probably wouldn't let the race go much over the speed limit, once they know they got you its all over racerboy.

That doesn't mean shit. What if I have a CAMS C4 license? I would have had to pass a driving test for that.

NSW cops aren't allowed to do more than 180-200km/hr on public roads. Above 150km/hr they have to call in for permission. With a C4 I'm qualified to drive as fast as my car will go, but good luck using that as a justification in court.

And its not like the train cops and let them practice doing high speed manouvres on public roads, and with a C4 license you can race bumper to bumper, so its not like their "trained" skillset is any better.

[predator]

all it takes is for in 1 situation for the cops to be "egging" somebody on for a drag, and that person going onto kill themselves or even worse some pedestrians, etc and the whole issue will be stopped dead cold.

It is just lucky it hasn't happened already.

[AdamsR33]

That doesn't mean shit. What if I have a CAMS C4 license? I would have had to pass a driving test for that.

NSW cops aren't allowed to do more than 180-200km/hr on public roads. Above 150km/hr they have to call in for permission. With a C4 I'm qualified to drive as fast as my car will go, but good luck using that as a justification in court.

And its not like the train cops and let them practice doing high speed manouvres on public roads, and with a C4 license you can race bumper to bumper, so its not like their "trained" skillset is any better.

Umm yes it does, your average street racer gets no training at all so in the event that something goes wrong who do you think has more chance of getting control of the car, a dimwit p plater or a cop who's had training??? I'm not saying just because they get training in car control is justification for them speeding, they're out there catching people breaking the law and if that requires them to speed then so be it!! if someone was breaking into my home i'd want the fcukers there ASAP!!! And street racing is not only illegal its DANGEROUS!!! so they're breaking the law,

Your C4 cams licence means shit, i can go as fast as my car wil go too on the track, anybody going to a trackday can and they don't have to get any training!!so you can shove that theory up your ass!

[scathing]

Your C4 cams licence means shit, i can go as fast as my car wil go too on the track, anybody going to a trackday can and they don't have to get any training!!so you can shove that theory up your ass!

Uhh...the concept of letting people who are apparently qualified to drive fast to do so on the road is your theory.....

And your standard trackday license (as issued by individual tracks or a CAMS L2S) doesn't let you drive wheel to wheel in race conditions.

Edited May 27, 2006 by scathing

[silver gts-t]

Uhh...the concept of letting people who are apparently qualified to drive fast to do so on the road is your theory.....

And your standard trackday license (as issued by individual tracks or a CAMS L2S) doesn't let you drive wheel to wheel in race conditions.

i think what nath95 is trying to say is that your average patrol police officer has had more training that your average driver with no driver training at all...

[scathing]

i think what nath95 is trying to say is that your average patrol police officer has had more training that your average driver with no driver training at all...

I never disagreed with him. What I'm trying to say is that the training is irrelevant. A guy with a C4 has driver training too, and that training is for wheel to wheel racing (like in a street race) at unlimited speeds (unlike HWP driver training) but it doesn't mean he's any safer in a street race.

At any rate, the traditional "omg won't somebody think of the children!" reasons for banning street racing is the danger to people who don't see / hear these cars screaming down the road and just walk in front of them, or other road users pulling out of side streets and getting crashed into.

All the pursuit training in the world isn't going to stop you from ploughing into some deaf and blind ped if you're going for it down some narrow road with cars parked on either side, or make their SS Commodore with 100-200kg of extra weight pull up from high speed when some guy turns in from a side street without actually checking the traffic on the road they're entering.

[Guest Mashrock]

Well if you street race and get caught sucked in!!, there's drags on every weds night if you want to run up against anyone. street racing is illegal for a reason, ITS DANGEROUS! its your decision to race and it don't matter if the guy/girl next to you is egging you on, you don't have to. so if its a undercover cop egging you its still your decision to race or not.Please people leave it to the track/strip.

My 2c worth.

yer but f**k going to wsid, Rather The old track the best part was driving around the corners

[AdamsR33]

Uhh...the concept of letting people who are apparently qualified to drive fast to do so on the road is your theory.....

And your standard trackday license (as issued by individual tracks or a CAMS L2S) doesn't let you drive wheel to wheel in race conditions.

no thats not my theory at all, the cops ain't gonna let a race go much further than the speed limit so once they know they got you thats it and of race.

No my L2S licence doesn't let me race wheel to wheel, but why is that??? because its fcuking dangerous!!! so if they won't let people do it on the track where everyone is going the same direction etc etc why won't they let me race other people?? because i haven't done a training course. so what makes it alright for dickheads to do it on the street where kids don't look for cars the elderly can't walk across quick enough, etc etc etc. Road falalities from street racing has hit an al time high so what are the police to do to stop it?? if you run are they allowed to chase you, is that okay aslong as they don't go over the speed limit??

We've all heard about people losing it big time and either losing their life or their passengers lives, I still can't see how street race is acceptable to some.

Scathing you might be a great driver and do lots of motorsport, if thats the case then you of all people would know how dangerous motorsport is on the track and especially off it. I'm not saying the cop is safer because of the training i'm saying 9 times out of 10 the people who race have little to no training as opposed to the cop who has training.

Mashrock, i agree i like the track better than the strip, much better going around corners!!

[scathing]

I'm not saying the cop is safer because of the training i'm saying 9 times out of 10 the people who race have little to no training as opposed to the cop who has training.

Well then, if you're not saying that the cop is safer because of the training, its irrelvant when it comes to the safety of the two participants of the street race and they're both just as dangerous to the general populace. Which is what we were talking about originally.

So why did you bother bringing it up in the first place?

And, now that I think about it, can you reconcile your "not saying the cop is safer" comment above with what you said earlier:

in the event that something goes wrong who do you think has more chance of getting control of the car, a dimwit p plater or a cop who's had training???

Or are you perhaps saying that the trained ability of the cop to control the car does not make them a safer driver?

[AdamsR33]

Well then, if you're not saying that the cop is safer because of the training, its irrelvant when it comes to the safety of the two participants of the street race and they're both just as dangerous to the general populace. Which is what we were talking about originally.

So why did you bother bringing it up in the first place?

And, now that I think about it, can you reconcile your "not saying the cop is safer" comment above with what you said earlier:

Or are you perhaps saying that the trained ability of the cop to control the car does not make them a safer driver?

Everything is an arguement to you isn't it, it wouldn't matter what i said you will differ in your opinion, i'll spell it out real slow for you, s-t-r-e-e-t r-a-c-i-n-g i-s d-a-n-g-e-r-o-u-s! , you can't justify it one bit, but if it takes the cops to try and weed out the dickheads that do it by egging them on then i don't have a problem with that, there's no such thing as safe street racing but i'll put my money on the cop to win everytime.

If you scathing are the racer you say you are,and i'm not saying your not i don't know you, surely you know motorsport is dangerous and especially on the street. do you honestly think craig lowndes, mark skaife, mark webber would race on the street?? no they wouldn't and why is that?? Maybe just maybe they know street racing is dangerous, you as a racer should know that, or maybe you do but don't care or maybe your just an arguementitive moron that likes to talk it up in a thread. who knows and really i don't want to either way i don't think much of you. you can shut up now.

[scathing]

waah waah waah

Not everything is an argument with me. Just when people talk shit, that goes against my old-fashioned sense of justice and consistency, I'll let them know what fools they are. I realise its not the "in" thing with people anymore. And people who realise that they're stuck on the wrong side of making sense usually try to silence their detractors since they can't actually come up with a compelling argument.

I don't recall ever saying that street racing isn't dangerous. I don't recall ever justifying it. If you'd learn to actually read, I originally never passed judgement on the actions of random Joe public, since the thread was started about the actions of police and what they do, not the actions of a street racer. That street racing is stupid is a given. What I thought we were talking about (you know, since the thread topic and first post focuses on it) is whether cops winding street racers up is dangerous and stupid or not.

But since some people are clearly too dense to work that out, I ended up stating my position on both the civilian street racer and the police street racer. Feel free to re-read this for my attitude on people who street race (which is before your first post) and this for what I think should happen to the both of them.

Ironically, Mark Webber has publicly stated that won't even drive on Australian roads anymore. In an interview a while back, one of the reasons he gave was because of the heavy-handed law enforcement that focuses on catching / fining people for minor but easily detectable infractions rather than taking measures to stop accidents from occurring.

And as for my "motorsport opinion", in the context of the topic (try looking up the word "context" so you know what it means) what I think is dangerous is the police creating a situation where street racing occurs, and what I find unethical is the police then busting people for something they started unprovoked and participated in while being immune to the same laws.

But since you can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next, your opinion is worthless so you'll have to excuse me if I don't break out the little violins over what you think of me. You could want to ask me out in a few posts time....

[AdamsR33]

In the case given originally (cops winding up people to street race), no crime has been commited at that point. They could quite easily suspect some chromied-up, lowered, big exhaust fitted import might be amenable to a bit of street racing....but our society is yet to introduce thoughtcrime.

However, in inciting people to race they themselves have become a participant. Which is a crime. They have no grounds to suspect that other person is, so there should be no dispensation to enforce the law, since no laws have been breached. Hence, my assertion that what they're doing is not legal.

so in your opinion the cops can't intice you into street racing becuase then they are breaking the law themselves, correct?? they started it so no crime was being committed before the fact. understandable but...

So they can't go up to a drug dealer buy drugs off them then arrest them for it?? because in your theory no crime was committed until the cops initiated it. they participated in the crime they even instigated it yet in your theory they are not allowed to arrest them...

please i'd like to hear your opinion on this one or is that okay for the cops to do that to drug pushers, dealers but not street racers??? pm me so we don't go off thread here.

as i said you are just an arguementitive moron who really is just talking it up. if i am talking shit then please all people that think i am feel free to let me know, i'm interested to hear..

you can question the actions of police all you want but if their actions is what is needed to get criminals in jail then i don't have a problem with them trying to get anyone to race on the street, they will catch the ones that do and the ones that don't don't have a thing to worry about.

[AdamsR33]

i think what nath95 is trying to say is that your average patrol police officer has had more training that your average driver with no driver training at all...

thanks John, thats exactly what i am trying to say.

[scathing]

So they can't go up to a drug dealer buy drugs off them then arrest them for it?? because in your theory no crime was committed until the cops initiated it. they participated in the crime they even instigated it yet in your theory they are not allowed to arrest them...

please i'd like to hear your opinion on this one or is that okay for the cops to do that to drug pushers, dealers but not street racers???

Already covered this, but not really accurately. Pushers were covered properly. Professional dealers (i.e. guys who make money off it) I've got no problem with approaching them (its like walking into a store).

But lets say someone approaches me (random Joe) for drugs. I don't deal, but lets say I know someone who does (or knows someone who knows someone etc...not hard in this day and age). Now, lets say after a bit of persuasion and a complete loss of my common sense I tell this complete stranger I'll help them out (I'm not sure if its relevant to this analogy if I've hooked up mates before. Let me know if it is and I'll think about it then). I go through the grapevine, and eventually the guy gets what he asked for. And I get a set of cuffs in return.

Now, I don't deal (normally). But in the end I'm the retailer in this situation. Should the cops be looking for people like me (an Asian guy with blonde highlights) given that I kind of resemble a stereotypical streetwise Cabramatta drug dealer when I'm actually some private school nerd? Am I a worthwhile bust, or should they be out there catching an actual dealer who's got the shit on them, or getting it straight from the manufacturer, and does it for profit?

you can question the actions of police all you want but if their actions is what is needed to get criminals in jail then i don't have a problem with them

I've got no problems with police getting criminals off the street. I have a problem with the police making criminals of the innocent, and then making easy busts (last paragraph here.

There are criminals out there that need no invitation from undercover cops to actually commit a crime, so its not like they're hard up for work.

If the cops want to go stake out an industrial park known for "the runs", sit there in wait for a group of guys to rock up, and choose not to pre-emptively go in there and disperse the crowd (assuming there's no danger to innocents by their inaction) before a crime is commited and then make arrests once people start racing I'm all for that. That idiocy would have gone down whether the cops were there or not.

But if I'm driving down the road at the speed limit and not driving in a dangerous / aggressive manner, and some other driver spies my Japanese coupe and cuts me off while doing 20km/hr over the speed limit, and then revving his engine at a set of lights decides to pull me over and impound my car when I take off a little harder than usual due to my frustration at the dickheads I'm forced to share the roads with, that's something else entirely. Because if the cop hadn't been driving like a cock smoker around me and winding me up, my driving style wouldn't have deviated from the model driver I was prior to their appearance.

Edited May 30, 2006 by scathing

[AdamsR33]

Already covered this, but not really accurately. Pushers were covered properly. Professional dealers (i.e. guys who make money off it) I've got no problem with approaching them (its like walking into a store).

But lets say someone approaches me (random Joe) for drugs. I don't deal, but lets say I know someone who does (or knows someone who knows someone etc...not hard in this day and age). Now, lets say after a bit of persuasion and a complete loss of my common sense I tell this complete stranger I'll help them out (I'm not sure if its relevant to this analogy if I've hooked up mates before. Let me know if it is and I'll think about it then). I go through the grapevine, and eventually the guy gets what he asked for. And I get a set of cuffs in return.

Sorry mate you dealt drugs, you only had to say no and walk away yet YOU decided to deal with drugs.

Now, I don't deal (normally). But in the end I'm the retailer in this situation. Should the cops be looking for people like me (an Asian guy with blonde highlights) given that I kind of resemble a stereotypical streetwise Cabramatta drug dealer when I'm actually some private school nerd? Am I a worthwhile bust, or should they be out there catching an actual dealer who's got the shit on them, or getting it straight from the manufacturer, and does it for profit?

I've got no problems with police getting criminals off the street. I have a problem with the police making criminals of the innocent, and then making easy busts (last paragraph here.

There are criminals out there that need no invitation from undercover cops to actually commit a crime, so its not like they're hard up for work.

If the cops want to go stake out an industrial park known for "the runs", sit there in wait for a group of guys to rock up, and choose not to pre-emptively go in there and disperse the crowd (assuming there's no danger to innocents by their inaction) before a crime is commited and then make arrests once people start racing I'm all for that. That idiocy would have gone down whether the cops were there or not.

But if I'm driving down the road at the speed limit and not driving in a dangerous / aggressive manner, and some other driver spies my Japanese coupe and cuts me off while doing 20km/hr over the speed limit, and then revving his engine at a set of lights decides to pull me over and impound my car when I take off a little harder than usual due to my frustration at the dickheads I'm forced to share the roads with, that's something else entirely. Because if the cop hadn't been driving like a cock smoker around me and winding me up, my driving style wouldn't have deviated from the model driver I was prior to their appearance.

Again you decided to race them, all you had to do was turn a blind eye and drive away, turn up a another street but you decide to show off how good your car was. And chances are if all it takes is someone to egg you on for a race then it was going to happen regardless if it were some P plater or an undercover cop . That other driver that spied your coupe is what is known as a street racer and it wouldn't of mattered if it was a cop or not you participated.

drug pushers, street racers have one thing in common, they are doing something that is dangerous and illegal so why ,to you, is there 2 sets of rules?

there is no difference in the comparison i gave you. Both were doing nothing to indicate something illegal is/was going to happen, both crimes were instigated by police where they actually participated and then both were arrested for it, yet you said its okay for one and not the other.

I'm finished with you Alan, i have just proven to everyone on here that your just arguementitive for street racing, If you race on the street i do hope you get caught, not because wish something bad on you but because thats one less f*kwit on the street. Oh and also if you do get caught you'll lose your CAMS C4 licence too so i won't be seeing you at any track days either which suits me just fine. Bye MORON.

P.S I don't date morons.

[rb30gtr]

barstards

[siksII]

hey guys calm down, its been an interesting read and apart from the personal issues that developed between you guys it was pretty informative..

on forums it is easy to get worked up but i bet if it was in real life it would be a good argument with no hard feelings at the end of it!

[scathing]

drug pushers, street racers have one thing in common, they are doing something that is dangerous and illegal so why ,to you, is there 2 sets of rules?

Once again you're misunderstanding me, despite my prior clarification when I was talking to lwells. Your questions break, at times, into specifics and so the discussion then loses its focus on what I was originally talking about.

Forget the street racer; we've already established that its stupid and illegal. The action itself is irrelevant to why I have a problem with this specific issue.

What I am talking about is the measures the police are permitted to take in order to "find" criminals. And whether they should be permitted.

I'm after 1 set of rules for everyone in this country, because as it stands there are 2.

If I egg you on in a street race, and you accept, and we both get caught then we both get busted. Fair enough. I'm all for it.

If a cop eggs you on in a street race, and you accept, if you both get caught then only you get busted while the cop just hides behind a "yeah, I was just doing it to prove he's a street racer". As I said previously, in this example if the cop also gets busted for street racing I've got no problems with the civilian for getting busted.

Now the cop isn't doing this to stop a crime already being committed. They're doing it to generate a crime. So they're not solving an existing problem; they're generating a new one and then stopping that. So, net effect, they're doing nothing. And, in the process, they are committing a crime themselves. Please don't talk about how cops are allowed to break laws in the course of their duty, lwells and I already covered this. And the reason we have public threads is so other people can view it, and not have to explain the same thing over and over again.

There is due process when it comes to obtaining evidence. The cops have to do things a certain way in order to present a case that is usable in court. Hence why people can get off for technicalities, like how the Sydney Harbour Tunnel originally didn't have speed cameras that were RTA approved, so even though they had evidence from perfectly accurate and functional equipment it could not be used to prosecute speeders. Or how wiretaps require a court order, and evidence picked up by illegal wiretaps is not admissible (and may expose the police force to breach of privacy litigation). So even if they have the guy dead to rights, if due process isn't followed the guy gets off.

The methods the police have to use are governed by many things. Ensuring that the information is accurate and irrefutable is one of them. Ensuring that those given the power over others to enforce the law adhere to the highest ethical standards is another. And its this point that I believe police winding up random civilians violates. As I said above, they're making criminals of people who otherwise would not have committed a crime in that time and place. And, to me, that's a lot more unethical than using the wrong brand of speed camera to book a guy doing 200km/hr through the Harbour Tunnel.

As for the training that pursuit vehicle operators get, the point I'm trying to make is that its irrelevant. Many people have high speed training and experience, but they're not allowed to exercise it on public roads because of the dangers to others. Are cops better drivers than V8 Supercar drivers or F1 drivers? Because they're not allowed to street race, even with their skills.

Now if street racing is so dangerous and illegal, why are the cops allowed to do it for any reason? The biggest dangers from street racing are collisions with innocent bystanders, not maintaining control of the car (I will qualify this statement later). Now, all the police training in the world can't stop the laws of physics. If the cop participates in a street race and does 60km/hr flat out in 1st gear (so still within the speed limit), and some pedestrian steps out of the road 2 carlengths in front of him, I don't care if he's Mark Skaife. He is either going to take that pedestrian out, or he'll swerve to avoid and hit a parked car or the other competitor.

Now for the qualification. Now I realise at higher speeds car control becomes an issue (and the issue of skill comes into it), but most OEM sports cars are still quite stable up to 160km/hr. The biggest reason for bad handling cars (especially on Australia's woeful public roads) at even low speeds is ultra-stiff aftermarket suspension and a too-low ride height not permitting enough travel over bumps. Now most of these modified cars are not road worthy either, and if the cop wants to bust and defect them for that once again I'm all for it. The crime of driving an unroadworthy car was committed well before the cops picked them up.

[AdamsR33]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

I hear dump people...

Theres nothing new about street racing, its going to happen regardless if a cop eggs you on or not, but the reason the cops egg you on is to weed out the "bad apples", the ones that are out cruising with their 'homies' looking for "some fun". The ones that will race at any given chance, and the chances are they've done it all before and keep doing it. These are the people we want off the street. I honestly can't see why it is so hard for you to understand this, everyone else gets it but you.

Street racers are committing a crime and they do it regularly, the cops come up to you at a set of lights, rev their engine, give you the look, laugh to you, so you decide to burn them off, crime committed, evidence supplied, done end of story.

As i said its your decision whether it be a unmarked cop egging you on or some young dump pimple squeezing p plater out with his buddies to race, they didn't hold a gun to your head. But what i think your saying is why is it okay for police to egg you on and initiate a crime, now listen hear because this is really important, if they came up to you at a set of lights and said hey bud we're the cops and we're trying to catch street racers , are you one of them? you'd say "yer no officer i never race on the street, its dangerous." So how many street racers do you think they'll catch doing that??

The police force have laws that govern what they can and can't do to catch criminals, do you honestly think, after what you just wrote that they would go out and knowingly egg some guy on to race then have it thrown out the window because he can't do that? or its not fair?? stop being stupid and accept the fact that they can and will do just about anything they can to catch these street racers and get them off the street.

You still have not proven to me or anyone else how a drug pusher/dealer that stands on a corner waiting for someone to come along and buy drugs is any diffrent to a street racer cruising looking for some action. it doesn't matter if they profit from their crime or not, its still a crime and it wasn't being committed until the police incited them. They are solving an existing crime, its been going on for decades.

I never said it was safe for them because of the training they get, what i said was and i qoute "in the event that something goes wrong who do you think has more chance of getting control of the car, a dimwit p plater or a cop who's had training???"

And i also quote "I'm not saying the cop is safer because of the training i'm saying 9 times out of 10 the people who race have little to no training as opposed to the cop who has training."

where inthis does it say its safer???, please find the qoute where i said it was safer and then i'll apologise entirely to you.

Ohh and i will quote you here, a few post earlier i said you were arguementitive yet your response to that was quote " Not everything is an argument with me" yes? well i'll also quote this that you posted, " Its alright. I'm always argumentative, but sometimes its an effective way of sparking debate." Mmmm...

You also said something about you've covered the drugs thingy that i put to you, but the comparison i gave you was not the same as the one "you covered".

I'm sorry to the people who have to endure this narrow minded moron for posting and still not understanding why the police can catch you by inciting you into a street race, I don't think he will ever get it really, he seems intelligent enough yet somethings just not quite right...

Ohh and i don't see how my age is of relevent to this subject, and yes i'm having fun proving how ignorant you are.

As i said i'm finished with you and this conversation, you obviously don't get it so i'm sick of trying to explain it, you don't want to listen so i don't want to talk.

Anyway keeping up with the thread, well maybe, i've seen alot of police on bikes lately, usually in pairs but one about 1km behind the other, sneeky...

[scathing]

At the behest of other people in this thread, and your cousin (since you want to bring up things said outside of this thread) I backed off from the pointedness of the comments and tried to be a bit more civil. I figured, from the moral high horse you were riding about the way in which I was putting things and having a go at people, that you'd do the same. Evidently not.

I'm not going to say whether you should or shouldn't, but should you reply again I'll make sure that the tone of any subsequent replies are in line with yours.

As i said i'm finished with you and this conversation, you obviously don't get it so i'm sick of trying to explain it, you don't want to listen so i don't want to talk.

There's your lack of consistency again. You said you were over it, yet here you are rabbiting on again.

Anyway, I've never said that cops can't get you by inciting a street race. I'm not on the bar, but I figure if it went to court it'd be upheld (not that the cops haven't used dodgy methods to book people in the past, relying on the fact that civilians assume police always comply with the law and don't contest it). The failure to understand has always been on your part, and its shown up time and time again since you keep accusing me of saying things I never actually said.

What I am saying that the cops shouldn't be allowed to make busts like this. I don't see it as being ethical. What I want to see is a consistent application of the laws and methods of enforcement, but since consistency is beyond your understanding I can see why you're not understanding what I am saying.

When you let the end justify the means, that's when you start living in a police state. I realise its the prevailing attitude in this country (like invading Iraq even though the reasons given publicly were known by the government to be false, or intentially lying about the "children overboard" incident that close to an election) but just because its popular doesn't mean its right.

This country used to be about a "fair go", and we've gone overseas to kill and die for the idea that people shouldn't live in a state where the government and its enforcement arm can run roughshod over people with impunity.

As for the drug pusher thing, they approach the cop to sell. The crime is committed without the cops needing to make any kind of covert action. With a drug dealer that gets approached by people, the dealer is in possession of illicit substances. Another crime already committed before the police act, and it gives them reasonable grounds to suspect them of dealing. It still meets my criteria that police should only be permitted exemptions to the law in the course of stopping a crime already taking place, which is the case for the other exemptions they are granted.

Last time I checked possessing a sports car wasn't illlegal, and not all sports car drivers are criminals. Nor are all youths. In fact, few of them are. I don't see the reasonable grounds to suspect a certain subset of them (you don't see cops winding up Porsche, BMW or Ferrari owners, nor do you see them having a go at older drivers in imports) in order to draw out a crime.

Until the "suspect" nails the throttle at the lights, the only crime committed by anyone in the vicinity (and I will use the example from the first post) is on the part of the police officer who exceeds the speed limit, drives dangerously to cut someone off, and then sits there making undue noise revving the engine at a set of lights.

If the cops show up at "the runs" and there are guys lining up to race, and they either stakeout and wait for 2 civilians to race, or send an undercover there to do whatever it is people do at these street races to arrange a run and then bust the other participant, I'm fine with it. The guys are there at an illegal street race hanging around negotiating a race. They didn't just randomly show up at some industrial park and stay there. They were waiting to race, and it required no provocation on the part of the police for them to do it.

"in the event that something goes wrong who do you think has more chance of getting control of the car, a dimwit p plater or a cop who's had training???"

And i also quote "I'm not saying the cop is safer because of the training i'm saying 9 times out of 10 the people who race have little to no training as opposed to the cop who has training."

where inthis does it say its safer???, please find the qoute where i said it was safer and then i'll apologise entirely to you.

Fair enough. I'll yield that point for now.

However, since the driver training and their ability to control the car has no bearing on their safety as a vehicle operator (which is what I evidently erroneously inferred), what relevance does it bring to the discussion that lwells and I were having, and that you replied to, about the safety of both participants involved in the street race?

If its got nothing to do with safety, it pretty much means you were just wasting everyone's time by harping on about something that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. My mistake into thinking that you were actually participating in the discussion.

If they came up to you at a set of lights and said hey bud we're the cops and we're trying to catch street racers , are you one of them? you'd say "yer no officer i never race on the street, its dangerous." So how many street racers do you think they'll catch doing that

Oh-Kay. And you're accusing me of being a moron? How many murderers do you think they catch using your above method? How many drug dealers? How many of.....anything? Yet they still manage to catch wife beaters without f**king a bloke's wife so he'll get emotional, lose control, and beat the shit out of her. Your illogic beggars belief.