Intercoolers - Tube & Fin Vs Bar & Plate

[Quinny]

I am wondering what the difference is between a Bar & Plate cooler, and a Tube & Fin cooler. I have been talking to a couple of workshops who reckon the Hybrid Tube & Fin coolers are better than the japanese brand name coolers, because the jap ones use a bar & plate design.

The workshop reckons that tube & fin is better because it is physically lighter and flows better. It also allows better flow to the radiator.

I was wondering if anyone else can confirm or deny this and also tell me which is better for cooling capacity.

The Hybrid Tube & fin cooler is $1400 supplied and fitted which I thought was a bit steep, but if it is as good as they make out, then I don't mind paying the extra cash. But is it really that much better than the $400 GKTech kit?

[zed32]

I am wondering what the difference is between a Bar & Plate cooler, and a Tube & Fin cooler. I have been talking to a couple of workshops who reckon the Hybrid Tube & Fin coolers are better than the japanese brand name coolers, because the jap ones use a bar & plate design.

The workshop reckons that tube & fin is better because it is physically lighter and flows better. It also allows better flow to the radiator.

I was wondering if anyone else can confirm or deny this and also tell me which is better for cooling capacity.

The Hybrid Tube & fin cooler is $1400 supplied and fitted which I thought was a bit steep, but if it is as good as they make out, then I don't mind paying the extra cash. But is it really that much better than the $400 GKTech kit?

someone posted in the other thread that tube and fin is good for circuit cars etc, as they experience prolonged periods of power...but for street and drag, bar and plate is fine...

$1400 for a hybrid...ouch

[Sydneykid]

Do a search if you want the full story, in summary……..

Bar and plate cores are good if you do short power bursts, they have more aluminium (weigh more) so they are a better heat soak. But they take longer to cool down. Hence good for drag cars and road cars that get short burst of power then cruise. They do limit the airflow to the radiator more than tube and fin cores.

Tube and fin cores are good for more constant power applications, they weigh less so not as good for instantaneous heat soak. But they shed heat quicker than a bar and plate. Hence good for circuit race cars and cars that see long periods of sustained power.

cheers

[Quinny]

Ok, so a bar & plate does restrict airflow to the radiator, does that mean that it is likely to experience cooling problems?

[dezz]

Hi quinny.

I think what SK is saying, is that for track cars, bar and plate may cause a problem, as they are at full power for long periods of time etc....on the street and at the drags, bar and plate would be fine...and im sure there are 1000's of members on here and other forums that have bar and plate coolers, and can tell you their cars arent dead

[Quinny]

Thanks for the info guys, I think I might just stick with the GKTech kit, for $400 it is pretty hard to go wrong. I will probably get someone else to fit it though, coz I am useless at that kind of thing.

[Munna1]

I am wondering what the difference is between a Bar & Plate cooler, and a Tube & Fin cooler. I have been talking to a couple of workshops who reckon the Hybrid Tube & Fin coolers are better than the japanese brand name coolers, because the jap ones use a bar & plate design.

The workshop reckons that tube & fin is better because it is physically lighter and flows better. It also allows better flow to the radiator.

I was wondering if anyone else can confirm or deny this and also tell me which is better for cooling capacity.

The Hybrid Tube & fin cooler is $1400 supplied and fitted which I thought was a bit steep, but if it is as good as they make out, then I don't mind paying the extra cash. But is it really that much better than the $400 GKTech kit?

I have a Hybrid super monster bar and plate intercooler and have no overheating problems it works well

[ZILR-34]

if ur planing of running a bigger turbo setup and want more HP. go for the bar & plate u will be needing it to cool down the air alot faster than a tube & fin.

for a stokist setup tube & fin is the best way to go. better air flow and less turbo lag.

[Sydneykid]

if ur planing of running a bigger turbo setup and want more HP. go for the bar & plate u will be needing it to cool down the air alot faster than a tube & fin.

for a stokist setup tube & fin is the best way to go. better air flow and less turbo lag.

Rubbish, absolute rubbish, who the hell fed you that load of crap?

Some guy trying to sell you a bar plate intercooler I bet.

Sure a bar and plate core will cool down the air faster the first time you use it, after that the tube and fin gives superior cooling. Sure if you are into drags only, go the bar and plate, as long as you let it cool down between runs.

How many examples would you like of fast Skylines using tube and fin intercoolers. Let’s see;

1. the Gibson GTR’s all used tube and fin intercoolers and they won every meaningful Group A race in Australia for 3 years.

2. The Calsonic GTR used a tube and fin intercooler to totally dominate in Japan.

3. the Mines GTR uses a tube and fin intercooler, the bench mark by which all road/circuit GTR’s are measured

4. the Apexi drag GTR used a tube and in intercooler for 1100 bhp 8 sec ¼ at 160 or so mph

Shall I continue, there are several more pages of examples?

cheers

[Beer Baron]

plus i use one so they must be good. add me to your list up there gary....

[dezz]

Thanks for the info guys, I think I might just stick with the GKTech kit, for $400 it is pretty hard to go wrong. I will probably get someone else to fit it though, coz I am useless at that kind of thing.

Hi quinny, I have sent you a PM regarding the cooler...so if you are in fact confirming as part of the group buy, can you get back to me on that PM?

thanks

[mad082]

bar and plate flow better than tube and fin. if you look in a bar and plate you will see that it just has a smooth end on it. tube and fin have the tubes protruding out a bit and some of the air has to do 2 180 degree turns (bar and plate do 2 90 degree turns) so there is slight turbulence. the best flowing of all it bar and fin (or tube and plate, can't remember which it is). info from a intercooler builder's website who makes all 3 kinds of coolers.

and bar and plate take longer to heat up, but also hold heat and take longer to cool down (as people have said) which is why bar and plate are used in drag cars, and tube and fin used in street/circuit cars.

Edited May 20, 2006 by mad082

[GTRgeoff]

bar and plate flow better than tube and fin. if you look in a bar and plate you will see that it just has a smooth end on it. tube and fin have the tubes protruding out a bit and some of the air has to do 2 180 degree turns (bar and plate do 2 90 degree turns) so there is slight turbulence. the best flowing of all it bar and fin (or tube and plate, can't remember which it is). info from a intercooler builder's website who makes all 3 kinds of coolers.

and bar and plate take longer to heat up, but also hold heat and take longer to cool down (as people have said) which is why bar and plate are used in drag cars, and tube and fin used in street/circuit cars.

Yet more unsubstantiated crapola.

Essentially, unless you are running a full race car, you will be fine with a GKtech which is the best value available at the moment.

I have no temp issues on the racetrack with a Hybrid Monster 800hp cooler.

[dezz]

Yet more unsubstantiated crapola.

Essentially, unless you are running a full race car, you will be fine with a GKtech which is the best value available at the moment.

I have no temp issues on the racetrack with a Hybrid Monster 800hp cooler.

and even better value for money in the group buy ! only $400

lol

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...howtopic=117938

/end shameless plug

[mad082]

well the source of 'unsubstantiated crapola' is www.are.com.au

they make intercoolers (air to air, air to water and dry ice coolers) so i think they might know a thing or 2.

Edited May 20, 2006 by mad082

[GTRgeoff]

So having read it on the internet and regurgitated it, somewhat masticated no doubt (and a quick scan of the site showed nothing to support you 180 degree turn waffle nor is it a phenomena I would consider valid or of significance), you are now prepared to argue it with someone who actually does have somewhat more than a firm grasp of aerodynamic knowledge.

Once you can explain a few basics like settling chambers, von karman vortices, the navier stokes equations, turbulent wall growth or the meaning of a reynolds number I'll be prepared to listen, but I'll point out I'm not discussing with the owners of the website, or an expert in cooler design am I? In fact their website is a bit simple so I suggest searching elsewhere.

Look, learn but don't advise until you know, especially if SK is posting.

[rb26s13]

this is wat ive always been told in regards to coolers..

bar and plate coolers better but doesnt flow aswell as tube and fin

tube and fin flows better than bar and plate but doesnt cool aswell

yet in saying that was also taught this.. if you can only fit a small intercooler go for a bar and plate due to its cooling aspects

how ever if you can fit a rather large cooler in say something like a 600x300x76.. go for tube and fin for its flowing aspects..

feel free to tell me im wrong n wat not.. but the 400 dollar intercooler kits is a hell of a bargin

funny enough tho.. i run a 600x300x76 bar and plate cooler on front of the silvia.. had it for ages sitting around am looking at getting rid of it and goin a thicker tube and fin item tho

[mad082]

to see how the air could do a 180 deg. turn all you have to do is look into the intercooler. you can see the lip inside there. i'm not arguing that tube and fin are bad. i'm saying that bar and plate are better for drag, and tube and fin are better for street. and if you actually read what SK said and what i have said, i'm saying pretty much the same thing. if anything you sound like you are contradictiong SK more than me, so i think you should "Look, learn but don't advise until you know, especially if SK is posting."

[Sydneykid]

The problem I have is the generalisation, not ALL bar & plate intercoolers flow better than ALL tube and fin intercoolers. To state the obvious, a 600 X 300 X 65 B&P core is not going to flow as well as a 600 X 300 X 150 T&F core. Then you have the poorly made B&P versus the perfectly made T&F.

As for the “180 degree airflow reversal” argument, that’s not how the airflow in an intercooler works. Think of the extensions into the end tanks as ram tubes or splitters, then you are much closer to the true airflow characteristics. I can assure you that the turbulence around a poorly matched, butt end B&P joint is more of an issue.

Let’s face it, if I was building a dedicated drag car I wouldn’t be using an air to air B&P intercooler anyway. Not when I can buy a dry ice to air intercooler with similar internal airflow capacity for a similar price. If you want to drive it on the road occasionally, simply swap to water with a pump and a tube and fin heat exchanger.

Horses for courses as they say..

cheers

Edited May 22, 2006 by Sydneykid

[GTRgeoff]

But if you had any understanding of aerodynamics/fluid dynamics you would know that in those regions the air either stagnates or circulates while the primary flow follows streamlines directly into the mouth of the tube. It doesn't do 180 or 90 degree turns so that is a complete lie. Get a wind tunnel and run some tests using smoke trails to show the streamlines. I have, I think I'm suitably qualified to argue the semantics, and I suspect Gary would agree. All you are doing is confusing the issue and misleading readers with untruths, and then attempting to say "yes but I agree". If you agree, and have nothing further of value to add, read it and zip it!!! I'm not saying don't participate, just confirm what you want to write first, and not from a sellers site where they have a conflict of interest.

In fact that protruding tube, properly designed can improve airflow over an orifice with sharply squared edges of an equivalent area. This is basic stuff that a first year engineering student will learn.

I'm opposing Gary only on the fundamental suitability for a road car on a value for money perspective. I've never had engine cooling problems on my track car with a bar and plate 800hp cooler, but I was only doing a max of 7 laps at a time, in fact never noticed a temp spike in either outlet temp from the cooler or engine (well other than the back end when a cooler hose blew dumping flames out the exhaust ) but it was a quite a bit larger than the size SK tested. The prices available in dezz's current buy are the best I've seen and most users won't need to split the hair on "can it do 20 laps at full noise without temperature issues."

Which is best is a tough question to answer and the best answer is "It depends."

Have you actually read this that you wrote? I know you wrote it but but have you actually read it and tried to match up with some things called fact and reality.

bar and plate flow better than tube and fin. if you look in a bar and plate you will see that it just has a smooth end on it (Not necessarily). tube and fin have the tubes protruding out a bit and some of the air has to do 2 180 degree turns (bar and plate do 2 90 degree turns) so there is slight turbulence (total BS). the best flowing of all it bar and fin (or tube and plate, can't remember which it is) (I suspect wrong, any takers?). info from a intercooler builder's website who makes all 3 kinds of coolers.

I hope you get my drift here.