Creating A Dedicated Track Gtr

[hrd-hr30]

IS there a difference between NSW, VIC etc etc Regs. I highly doubt it as they run in each others series. But again i remember you were allowed to replace steel bumper bars...so i dont think thats right either.

well, it IS right. there are no freedoms for bumper bars in normal (EM) IPRA rules. LM have the freedom to replace non-metallic bumper fascias as long as they are contained within the same area as the original part when veiwed from directly above. and yes the IPRA rules are the same everywhere.

Edited June 2, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[Beer Baron]

mmmm if i was living in japan i would snap that bad boy up. some serious dough in that!

[GTRgeoff]

For those wanting to discuss a rule class as I mentioned previously give me some ideas here http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...owtopic=120585#

Dan, the SLIC is a term I use for Military acquisitions. So much of it exists to ensure it's own existence, making rules to ensure it always has limited value input but nothing proceeds without it's input eg. the Land Engineering Agency (LEA)

[Roy]

well, it IS right. there are no freedoms for bumper bars in normal (EM) IPRA rules. LM have the freedom to replace non-metallic bumper fascias as long as they are contained within the same area as the original part when veiwed from directly above. and yes the IPRA rules are the same everywhere.

So there are ppl out there that are very fortunate with what their cars have been log booked with as i the other week out at Sandown where i was watching the IP cars...there were old school cars not running the std steel bars...so make of that information what you will.

If the person i hear saying that R33s are a nicer track car then i will take their word as gospel. It seems to be backed up by the many R32 GTRs at the track , which short of a lot of mnoney being spent on them are no quicker then my GTST. Whilst reasonably std R33 GTRs are usually considerably quicker.

Pretty subjective...but its an observation i have made of the common GTR you see at the track on club days...not all out race cars where ppl have slaved away with the right knowledge, dollars and parts to get something working

[Guest Mashrock]

that gtr just finished loading. haha shit slow work telstra fishing net.

f**k that is some bit of gear.

[GTRgeoff]

It seems to be backed up by the many R32 GTRs at the track , which short of a lot of mnoney being spent on them are no quicker then my GTST. Whilst reasonably std R33 GTRs are usually considerably quicker.

There is no crack I can make about this statement that won't totally offend all GTR32 owners. I think even drawing attention to it will cop flames. What were you thinking?? Now I have to suffer self restraint. BASTARD!!!!!

[Sydneykid]

And are you sure about the rigidity thing. From a chasiss and suspension stance i thought the R33 was the clear winner over the old R32

Not with a cage in there

Sandown is basically 2 drag strips joined by 2 wiggles, horsepower per kg rules

For example the IP lap record is help by Tony, VH Commondoor ~1250 kgs with with 550'ish bhp

Even Ray, EB GT can't get it done, 650'ish bhp but 1600 kgs

Now I reckon the R32GTS would give it a shake, 1200 kgs and 700'ish bhp

The lighest legal IP R32GTR I have seen was 1350 kgs, that's with everything legal to be replaced being replaced with the lightest stuff, chrome molly cage, titanium and carbon fibre. I reckon I could get ~150 kgs out of it ignoring the regs, but still looking like an R32GTR. Original chassis but using plastic windows, all the bolt on panels in carbon fibre, alloy suspension arms and rear subframe, non working lights etc

Then we slip the RB31DET in there, 750 bhp, with a 6 speed sequential Hollinger (as used in the Monaro for the 24 hour), ~1200 kgs, some slicks on it, full manual ATTESA and it should do a 1.09 or there abouts. But when I think about it, that's only 2 seconds faster than the V8Supercar, maybe a 1.08 is more like it. Cheap, too should have change out of $100K.

For Geoff's benefit, Rod Dale and Gary Walden are running a series next year in NSW for basically Targa class cars, late models, turbos, 4wd, no restrictors etc. They have started promoting it, there's a story in Auto Fiction and Motorsport Spews. I will post it up over the weekend if I get a chance. That's why I had lunch with the IP guys yesterday, I sure put the fear into them.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

So there are ppl out there that are very fortunate with what their cars have been log booked with as i the other week out at Sandown where i was watching the IP cars...there were old school cars not running the std steel bars...so make of that information what you will.

some spoiler designs cover (or partially cover) the standard steel bars, but they do have to be there.

some escorts are allowed bumperettes on the front. becasue they are the standard front bar...

other than that, I can't think of anything else that would make it look confusing to those who aren't familiar with the rules.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

Roy chuck your head under a r33 GTR then chuck your head under a r33 gtst and have a look at all the feeble attempts at chassis stiffining nissan have done, you can't tell me this isn't becasue they knew that the r33 chassis was a little sloppy. I have no doubt that when you attend tracks you might see r33's going quicker but I have little doubt that this has anything to with the chassis or suspension of the different models.

People in GTR's generally are weekend hero's and spend money on engine mods and making sure it has 700hp instead of tyres, wheels and suspension mods and setup thats the main problem you will encounter and this is due to the r32 gtr being so accessible to the young wannabe as compared to the more expensive 33's and 34's. Just my 2c

[Duncan]

Yeah Gary I saw that info about the new class and have every intention of putting the race car in that as well.

I like the lexen for glass idea, remove lights etc thats more like it.....but how would you go about getting aluminium suspension arms and maybe even hubs?

And a hollinger 6 speed sequential was on my wish list too, that would be great fun. In fact I understand there is a gtr with one in nsw but it doesnt get out of its shed very often.

also, what about a wider track..would you try and change any of the geometry Gary? what is the max caster you would consider for example? Can anything be done to lower the roll centre of the chasis?

[Roy]

Roy chuck your head under a r33 GTR then chuck your head under a r33 gtst and have a look at all the feeble attempts at chassis stiffining nissan have done, you can't tell me this isn't becasue they knew that the r33 chassis was a little sloppy. I have no doubt that when you attend tracks you might see r33's going quicker but I have little doubt that this has anything to with the chassis or suspension of the different models.

People in GTR's generally are weekend hero's and spend money on engine mods and making sure it has 700hp instead of tyres, wheels and suspension mods and setup thats the main problem you will encounter and this is due to the r32 gtr being so accessible to the young wannabe as compared to the more expensive 33's and 34's. Just my 2c

LOL....thats a bit harsh:)

They may have tried to increase their stiffness with brackets...but i still suspect the R33 is stiffer off the showroom floor?!?!

And young wannabe...lol thats me There is no such thing as a poor chassis or setup...to me it call be fixed with another 100rwkw...driving cars with power are fun. May not be as quick as they should be but they are fun:)

..and out of interest...anyone clarify the bonnet and bar on these? Did some later model E30s come with different bars to the more common steel, or slimline bars?

Edited June 3, 2006 by Roy

[GTRgeoff]

Roy chuck your head under a r33 GTR then chuck your head under a r33 gtst and have a look at all the feeble attempts at chassis stiffining nissan have done, you can't tell me this isn't becasue they knew that the r33 chassis was a little sloppy. I have no doubt that when you attend tracks you might see r33's going quicker but I have little doubt that this has anything to with the chassis or suspension of the different models.

People in GTR's generally are weekend hero's and spend money on engine mods and making sure it has 700hp instead of tyres, wheels and suspension mods and setup thats the main problem you will encounter and this is due to the r32 gtr being so accessible to the young wannabe as compared to the more expensive 33's and 34's. Just my 2c

In driving comparison I've found the GTR32 and GTR33 to be different in chassis stiffness in stock form and the resulting confidence in the GTR33 means I am more comfortable pushing a little harder. It's personal preference, I know my personal driving style. I also have a 94 auto GTS25t and a 95 manual GTS25t and find that the older car is nowhere near as stiff in the chassis, even now with the old manual suspension I used to run 2:00 at the island on street rubber. It simply doesn't handle as well. Products develop and get improvements through a manufacturing life and there is a classic example. As a minimum they engineers would make the 33 an improvement over 32GTR and so they have said time and again that was their objective. So again all R34 models are an improvement over R33.

You mention there are extra stiffening points in the GTR33 over the 25t. You realise that even minor, or "feeble" as you put it, stiffeners that are well designed and located can dramatically alter a chassis? Or any structure for that matter? Of course you must to have even looked and brought it up. Nissan did of course only produce a production car and not an outright race car so the fiscal vs engineering balance of construction complexity and material quantity had to take effect or a car too expensive would have meant a dead dog in the market. If the chassis needed extra stiffening, and they are a somewhat different structural layout in some crucial areas, then they did it with remarkable effectiveness to keep the R a superior motoring product. It is meant to be better and stock for stock is pretty much always demonstrated better on a racetrack over GTR32 and especially GTS25t with professional drivers. I've never seen different, but having not seen every match up I can't say with absolute certainty.

When people are going faster it usually means the car gives them the confidence to do so, or are you alleging that GTR33 owners are better drivers, or they just take them out on weekends, or spend more on mods......or maybe I just can't understand you're last statement, or is the statement limited to just GTR32 owners? I don't want a blue but your entire post seems to be a bit without any direction other than anti-33, and I haven't ever got the feeling that was your bag.

On the bumpers, Harry, I have noted on the SelectMaz IP car the nosecone is the same shape as the original bunper but everything else is modified for front downforce and is a single piece design. The car hasn't campaigned for a couple of seasons so may still be setup for older rules. I understand Ken Douglas should be driving it in the VIC series again this year.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

Geoff, well constructed post as per usual, nice to see intelligent conversation on an internet forum for a change. I am in no way anti r33, and stock for stock when I have driven the cars, you are right the R33 inspires more confidence when pushing the limit thus probably most drivers can get a little more out of them. However I remain loyal to the fact that a r32 will still be a better dedicated track car (thats what this thread is about) due to weight, every modification you make to either model down the line the r32 in my opinion will come out on top as it is a lighter motor vehicle, which ultimately must result in better track times. Now every here agrees that the problem with gtr's is the weight so why then are we argueing that the r33 is better if its heavier? I agree that Nissan engineers would have learnt things from the r32 and the r33 would be a more highly evolved chassis than the r32, (why would they go backwards?), but I still stand buy the comments that putting in chassis stiffening measures such as brackets no matter how strategically placed they are, to try to stiffen a chassis is not the best form from an engineering point of view...Get it that stiff in the first place without brackets. IF we start doing some serious engineering work, strategically placing brackets and stiffners on a r32 is going to result in a really good chassis then???

But as you said they are not designed as dedicated race cars in the first place. So in closing you are right Geoff I am not anti r33, sorry to come across that way, in reality I would prefere to own a r33 but when I first bought my GTR they where well beyond my price range at around $60g. However I was answering the original post, creating a dedicated track car I would always start with a lighter car especially if there is such a close comparison between the models!

[Roy]

What is the weight difference between std R32 and R33, really? Sre any weight is dead weight.

Is there a real difference in track and wheelbase? COG etc etc. By the time the R33 was ready to be raced it was basically raced as either a Prod car or a GY car...so i wonder if that made any difference to them?

[GTRgeoff]

Great points Daniel, and always happy for intelligent debate. As Troy said, it's gotta be a lot of dead weight in both cars. The first GTR32 was 1430kg, the last was 1500kg (where did that 70kg of lard come from?? maybe chassis stiffening and I should drive a later model one as I've only driven 1989 to 1991) and the GTR33 was 1530kg so we aren't talking a great percentage here in difference. It would be an interesting comparison to see just how far one can be stripped down in each instance. Personally I could drop 30kg myself........

Putting in stiffeners is a perfectly acceptable engineering method, as the application can be optimised. Consider the GTR34 Z-tune with carbon applique around the front strut towers for improved rigidity.

BTW track is 1480 f/r on GTR32 and GTR33 1480/1490mm. Again not much difference in the rear, but wider all the same

If tyres and wheels are free then 33/34 can carry larger rubber as well so there is also an advantage there to counter a little weight difference.

Ultimately there are plenty of cheap 32's so instantly there is a massive advantage in going that way so money is available for performance.

[Duncan]

OK but I don't think chasis stiffness is an issue for this purpose, they come up brilliant once you put a cage in them anyway, I was amazed with the before and after feel of the car, also other things like new bushes (or at least 5 years younger) make a hge difference.

Anyway, what else to do? how can we get some of this damn weight out.

How much lighter is a dry sump system overall, or does it actually weigh more? At least you can put the oil tank somewhere more convenient.

Need to keep power steer these cars are too heavy to wrestle round without...I know because we keep blowing ps pumps.

Electric water pump and thermo fans.

Relocate battery to boot.

Even with a dry sump, can't really put the motor any lower due to the front drive shaft location.

[Duncan]

Oh, and which turbo/s?

[hrd-hr30]

..and out of interest...anyone clarify the bonnet and bar on these? Did some later model E30s come with different bars to the more common steel, or slimline bars?

I'm not about to speculate directly about the legality of anyone's car on the internet. All I will say is I don't even know what year models they are, or when they were log booked, but the bimmer looks to be a LM car to me, judging by tyre profile.

[blk180]

Anyway, what else to do? how can we get some of this damn weight out.

Carbon fibre tail shaft

remove power windows and all but the skins in the doors

reomove dash and only leave what you need or put in a MXL track dash(if your using haltech other wise which ever suits your computer setup).

lexen windows

hmm i want to cut something lol

:sorcerer: lighter

Brad

EDIT or just give the car to sydneykid 1200kg OMGWTF.

[Duncan]

Oh and remove all wiring and only put back what you need, there must be 20kg+ of wires in there