Disadvantages Of Wolf 3d Ecu's?

[paulr33]

know its bad when sydneykid says its shit

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

main differences:

-Wolf3d uses a MAP sensor, Powerfc Uses the car's AFM

(some argument over which is better, however wolf can be setup to use AFM. Powerfc can't use MAP unless you get djetro version)

-Wolf3d maps have 16 load axis and rpm points every 125 rpm (so between 0 and 8000rpm, it's 16x64)

-PowerFC maps are 20x20

-wolf has wideband o2 sensor built in which is very handy for data logging and tuning (you still have to buy the sensor itself, but not the interface etc.)

Both have similar features...

Look, with aftermarket ecu's, as long as you can change fuel and timing, they all more or less do the same thing. In a lot of cases, performance from and aftermarket ecu is more dependant on the tuner. It's hard to really say one is better than the other.

To put it in perspective, anything you can do with a powerfc, you can do by remapping the stock ecu (with the exception of data logging, hand controller readouts, aux out's of course...)

[Duncan]

To put it in perspective, anything you can do with a powerfc, you can do by remapping the stock ecu (with the exception of data logging, hand controller readouts, aux out's of course...)

Ahh well thats not true really.....with the standard ECU and a consult cable you get all the data the PFC hand controller gives you, plus data logging. And the standard ECU has better cold start and idle. But the PFC is almost as good as standard

[Al]

know its bad when sydneykid says its shit

Read the post properly, Sydneykid is just saying the Wold ecu is AS shit as the Power FC when running auto's. Does not mean the Pfc is any better

Do a SEARCH, has been discussed multiple times, especially between Paul and myself

I have used the Wolf3D for years, and would not consider using a PowerFC as i believe, through my experience, that the Wolf has more features, tunability and engine safety. At the end of the day it is only as good as your tunner and there is alot of tunners making the Wolf look bad

[paulr33]

yeah i know the comment was uncalled, my bad

[paulr33]

actually the wolf has

+ pin code lock

the powerfc has

+ knock sensor support

so the feature set is even. each has their own advantage and disadvantage

both have airtemp support and correction

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

^ yes you can use consult i have an interface that i use for exactly that. I was just being general! i don't think that really changes the argument in any case.

One of the features that is very useful on powerfc's are the knock sensor. I have pondered if there is a way to build something similar using the stock knock sensor...

wolf3d has some pretty neat closed loop control options actually. I was just reading through the manual the other day. I'm not sure if powerfc has this, but i know it does use closed loop for fuel economy when cruising.

wolf3d also has a builtin turbo timer, can support different load sensors (eg. afm/map/tps etc.) and support for a secondary load sensor. The idle control settings has more stuff on wolf by the looks of things

they have similar features, but the wolf unit seems to have more settings for each thing (eg. idle control, boost control, closed loop etc.), and if you're like me and like to tweak things i'd find it an advantage. But it also would mean they are harder to setup.

-------

IF you are getting a workshop to tune it for you, find a workshop you are comfortable with, and see what ECU's they tune, and recommend. There is no point going Wolf3d v4 if there are no good workshops nearby that tune them.

There are enough bad tuning workshops I know of, that would make me very particular when choosing a tuner that I can trust.

[NismoR31Jet]

I guess the easiest way to see if the wolf is what you want is to go to the website www.aems.com.au, download the v4 manuals and have a look at what it offers.

[KNKY_SX]

this may appear to be a little off topic, but....

after reading HPI and thier build up of the r32 4 door, they used a wolf ecu and said that the r32 and r33 PNP ecu's were the same... they even included a photo of the sticker on the ecu saying "r32/33gtst"... now, would i be correct in saying that an r33 pfc would work on an r32?

just curious cause i wanna buy an ecu for my r32 but don't want to rewire and don't want to spend shitloads on an AP engineered pfc...

[discopotato03]

So if you paid half the price of the known quantity (PFC) and it ran half as well with poor consumption are you really better off ?

Gary maybe you can tell me why there is resistance to using Hotwire Mass Air Sensors because I can't see any great disadvantage . Provided the bloody thing passes the air whats the issue ?

Cheers ...

[satanic]

SydneyKid; when you say that absolutely no ECU out there can cater for the Nissan Auto; how many ECUs are we talking about?

I'm about to install and tune a HKS F-CON unit into my car and they have advertised it as being suitable for the automatics. It has features which controls the ignition changes during a gear shift... I've talked extensively with the tuner and they are 100% confident that it will not fail.

Not only that, the features on the F-CON are from my understanding top-level; also coming from HKS I don't think that they would falsely advertise something like that.

Have you had any experience with the F-CON (V-PRO latest version 3.24 to be exact)?

Not being smart or anything, just trying to get a few more opinions as I've done a lot of reading on the unit and 100% of the feedback on the unit is positive so far.

[paulr33]

hks site doesn't state auto or manual so one would assume its manual only

[paulr33]

this may appear to be a little off topic, but....

after reading HPI and thier build up of the r32 4 door, they used a wolf ecu and said that the r32 and r33 PNP ecu's were the same... they even included a photo of the sticker on the ecu saying "r32/33gtst"... now, would i be correct in saying that an r33 pfc would work on an r32?

just curious cause i wanna buy an ecu for my r32 but don't want to rewire and don't want to spend shitloads on an AP engineered pfc...

the PowerFC FAQ in my sig states how to use the R33 PFC on the RB20 or even RB26 PFC

[satanic]

Paul; translate the page into English and go down to the bottom... there is a section (yellow icon I think) that states the unit's automatic capabilities - this has been confirmed by a HKS dealer and people overseas who have used it effectively on autos.

Now I'm confused; about to spend big big $$$ on getting this setup put in and tuned!

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

SydneyKid; when you say that absolutely no ECU out there can cater for the Nissan Auto; how many ECUs are we talking about?

I'm about to install and tune a HKS F-CON unit into my car and they have advertised it as being suitable for the automatics. It has features which controls the ignition changes during a gear shift... I've talked extensively with the tuner and they are 100% confident that it will not fail.

Not only that, the features on the F-CON are from my understanding top-level; also coming from HKS I don't think that they would falsely advertise something like that.

Have you had any experience with the F-CON (V-PRO latest version 3.24 to be exact)?

Not being smart or anything, just trying to get a few more opinions as I've done a lot of reading on the unit and 100% of the feedback on the unit is positive so far.

speak to bd4s in sydney. They are basically the only workshop that has the software and hardware to tune FCon's in Australia, and i've spoken to them on the phone about tuning, and I got a very good impression from the conversation I had (they were able to answer all my questions and were very helpful). They should be able to tell you how they run on automatics. I assume you've already spoken to them though!

Apart from limited availability, they are fantastic ecu's. Much better than powerfc, wolf3d.

They have a really cool feature which automatically set's AFR's (it reads wideband o2 sensor input and automatically adjust fuel map to get a specific afr), 32x32 maps and a crapload of other features. In Japan they are very highly regarded. The main disadvantage is the software and hardware to tune is only available to certified hks dealers, so you can't tune them yourselves!

[paulr33]

well in that case good luck

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

i found this comparision between apexi powerfc and hks fcon pro from

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthre...?t=37497&page=2

worth a read, Just keep in mind in most states, you can't get them tuned...

I have decided to write this article as an introduction into the comparisons between

two well known aftermarket engine management systems. I have decided to do this

to educate a few people, offer an opportuinity for comparisons to be sought, and decisions

to be made, particularly helpful to members of the forum who own modified Japanese sports cars.

The two different ECUs that I would like to compare are 2 of the most popular aftermarket ECU's

for modified Japanese Sports Cars.

HKS F-Con V Pro

&

Apexi Power FC

The necessity for optimum control over a vehicle's engine is heightened as

a car's engine is modified and transformed beyond intentions and parameters set by manufacturers

and controlled by the stock Engine Control Unit. At clubman levels, where the investments into engine

modification and aftermarket upgraded engine components are high, the particular need for

precise control is paramount into both longetivity of the engine, and ability for the user to

gain full advantage of the investment he/she has made.

The requirements of an aftermarket ECU are that it must enable the user to adjust and alter the fuelling of the engine,

the ignition timing of the engine, control over auxiliary engine functions, to record and monitor the engine's activity,

to enable interaction between the user and the ECU, and incorporate safety systems and fail safes to ensure against

engine damage.

The following is a comparative analysis of each of the aftermarket ECUs I have chosen to study.

ECM Type

(A description)

HKS F-Con V Pro:

A fully featured stand alone engine management system incorporating a "piggy-back" fuel computer interface.

- Utilises Factory ECU

Apexi Power FC:

A complete stand alone total engine management system

- Replaces Factory ECU

Resolution of Adjustability

(What levels can user adjust main fuel/ignition points to)

HKS F-Con V Pro:

32x32 Fuelling & Ignition Point Adjustment

User defined selection range

Apexi Power FC:

20x20 Fuelling & Ignition Point Adjustment

5x5 map sections

Ability to control drive by wire?

HKS F-Con V Pro : Yes

Apexi Power FC: No

Engine Monitoring System

(What can the ECM monitor?)

HKS F-Con V Pro.

- Complete total engine monitoring via software

- Parameter Limts / Warning Functions user defined for any variable.

- Datalogging Function enables user to record and re-run data accumulated through all of car's sensors over defined period of time.

Apexi Power FC.

- 10 monitored parameters displayed via commander

- Engine RPM

- Ignition Timing

- Vehicle Speed

- Air Flow Voltage (Pressure Sensor Voltage)

- Injector Duty Cycle

- Boost

- Knocking Level

- Battery Voltage

- Intake Air Temp

- Water Temp

Functions

HKS F-Con V Pro.

- Total Control over Car's Electronic Systems.

- Main Functions include:

- Ability to store 4 different fuel/ignition/boost maps

- Fuelling Mapping

- Ignition Mapping

- Boost Mapping

- Injection Format

- Additional Injector Control

- Nitrous Oxide Injection Control

- Launch Control

- Multiple User Defined Rev Limits

- User defined activation levels via pressure, speed, revs, temperature

- Acceleration Enrichment Correction

- Cranking Fuel Injection Control

- Water temp / fuel injection control

- Anti-Lag Control

- Leading & Trailing Ignition Control

- Water Injection Control

- Boost Ramp Control

- Auto A/F Ratio Compensator

Apexi Power FC

- Fuelling Mapping

- Ignition Mapping

- Boost Mapping (with seperate boost control unit)

- user Defined Rev Limit

- Acceleration Enrichment Correction

- Cranking Fuel Injection Control

- Water temp / fuel injection control

- VTEC Control (on Honda Vehicles only)

- Leading & Trailing Ignition Control (on some vehicles only)

Injection Format?

(How can the ECM Control different injection formats?)

HKS F-Con V Pro.

- Batch, Sequential or Staged

Apexi Power FC

- Sequential Only.

Datalogging Function?

HKS F-Con V Pro.

- Yes

Apexi Power FC.

- No

User Interface

(How does the user access the ECM?)

HKS F-Con V Pro:

Through Software

Apexi Power FC:

Through Commander

Safety?

(How does ECM ensure engine safety and longetivity)

HKS F-Con V Pro

- Auto A/F Ratio Compensator

F-Con will calibrate entire engine mapping to suit user defined correct A/f Ratio, and will never let

engine run detrimentally lean (e.g in a case of a blocked injector)

- Warning Levels pre defined by user

- Limp Mode Activation pre defined by user

- Cut Off Activation of any ECU controlled electrical system, defined by user

- Use of aftermarket sensors to ensure more accurate readings.

- Datalogging.

- Active Parameter Display, Warning, Peak and Hold and Recording via software

Apexi Power FC

- Peak and Hold Function via Commander

- Warning Level Activation via C.E.L

Market Price in Japan

HKS F-Con V Pro : ~130,000 Yen = ~?650

Apexi Power FC : ~80,000 Yen = ~?400

Conclusion.

If you consider the requirements for an aftermarket ECM, as described in the section identifying

the aim and its role within the car, it must be decided how closely the functions offered by the

ECM meet the requirements. Levels of Engine adjustability, Levels of Car Electronic Systems Control, Safety Measures

and base functions are all to be considered in a solution to the need for total engine and electrics management, and in thus,

the superiority of the HKS F-Con V Pro ECM is clearly indicated. The F-Con's major disadvantage to the Apexi Power FC is limited to

its interface to the user, in that the interface requirements of the F-Con are a computer and computer based software which although portable to an extent,

does not meet the interface simplicity of the Apexi Power FC's handy, In-car

control device named " the Commander ".

The Ultimate System?

Neither!

For market leading Aftermarket Engine Management Systems, offering the greatest degree of engine and electronics

control, leading-edge technology and design quality, neither system is able to match the Engine Management Systems offered

by Motec. The M400,M600 or M800 currently offer the greatest levels of control and adjustment available to any

electronic management system currently on the market, and represents the pinnacle of aftermarket EMS.

Interface remains as in the case of the HKS F-Con, in that the Motec EMS is configured via a computer interface.

sorry if this is a bit off-topic... and the big post...

i'd also like to add, that with hks pro dealers who tune fcon's, they have to go through a very vigerous process to get the software, which i think involves going to japan and being taught how to tune from the experts. So you are pretty much gauranteed that your tuner will be very capable if they are a hks pro dealer. Unlike some tuning shops i've seen who tune powerfc's, and they really don't know what they are doing.

Edited June 14, 2006 by MerlinTheHapyPig

[satanic]

OK sorry my bad about the website reference... takes a little bit of detective work. Basically the V-PRO is an uprated version of the IS. The V-PRO contains all the functions of the IS and most of them are enhanced for race/professional usage.

On the V-PRO page it states as one feature:

"AT shift and revision"

* doesn't leave much in terms of detail ehh?

However, looking at the IS page, a description is given:

"In the A/T car, at the time of high load because the knocking which is easy to occur at the time of shift rise or kick down is not caused, engine rpm fluctuation and throttle opening are designated as condition and ignition retarded angle revision of fixed time is done."

Yes, I have talked to Tom @ BD4s extensively about this as well as others who have the units in their cars. Merlin, you are right about the limitations (tuning availability) which is why most of my enquiries went overseas to users who have been running the gear for ages (predominantly UK and Asia).

Trying to stay positive about it... we'll see after next Thursday

[satanic]

Awesome read Merlin, thanks heaps for that!

[satanic]

LOL just read that entire thread on the GTR UK site, 1,200 pounds just for the unit, another 1,400 pounds to tune.

But at least they have 6 tuners to choose from, we only have 1