Dangerous Driving Nonsense

[mad082]

the problem with making them do driver training is that it can make them think they have more skills than they do. they get out on a skid pan and have a bit of fun, then go out and test it on the road. it would be better to scare the hell out of them. that would settle them down more.

at every motorkana i've been to there is always the idiots who don't want to participate, but then proceed to do burnouts when they leave. or you get the guys who do participate, but just sit there and constantly lose control and just waste everyones time.

and i agree that the punishment for drunk drivers should be higher. i had a family member killed by a drunk driver, so i have no sympathy for them.

[oscar32]

I can honestly say that some of the speeding ticket that are issued area bit harsh in nature - just like some of the police.

The stats are skewed to make speeding look like more of an issue than it currently is. The government does enjoy the money it makes from fines..

Right now, we have operation Southroads in town, and although the number of cops has doubled, I can promise you our crash / death toll won't change a bit from the extra "attention".

But no one can justify doing almost double the limit in a built up urban area. I don't care who you are. Thats just stupid behavior. You got caught, ha ha. You deserve to loose yor licence so that when it comes back, you'll actually respect it, and hopefully the other people around you.

You want the type of buzz, get to the track and get it out of your system. The roads are for everyone, and certainley not your private racetrack.

I don't care if you've done $500,000 worth of professional driver development, have had extensive race experiance, raced F1 (and won the championship). That's too fast for the area. If you were really a good driver you'd have known that.

I note the guy that started this post hasn't come back.... no suprise there...with his massive respect for the law, he's probably out driving

[dangerous_daveo]

the problem with making them do driver training is that it can make them think they have more skills than they do. they get out on a skid pan and have a bit of fun, then go out and test it on the road. it would be better to scare the hell out of them. that would settle them down more.

at every motorkana i've been to there is always the idiots who don't want to participate, but then proceed to do burnouts when they leave. or you get the guys who do participate, but just sit there and constantly lose control and just waste everyones time.

and i agree that the punishment for drunk drivers should be higher. i had a family member killed by a drunk driver, so i have no sympathy for them.

Ahhh but here is the trick. Dont put them on a skidpan until they are responsible enough to understand why the skidpan is used.

You put them in what could be an every day situation, in many different cars, and not treat them like they are stupid, it should sink in to 90% of them.

At the moment its like survial of the fittest. You become a good driver because you dont get killed.

[The Baron]

Haven't read all the guff in the middle but basically....

116 in a 60 zone is just plain stupid - regardless of time traffic conditions etc. (Heck philosophically your argument would extend to driving drunk, drug f*cked etc on the same premise that it was okay because there was no-one around)

As for driver training - I fully agree that it is way too easy to get a licence in Oz and better training would certainly lower the road toll. however in response to banning low performance drivers rather then high performance cars - it is worthwhile to note that the High performance car is only safe when it is roadworthy and the number of vehicles that aren't is ridiculous. In my opinion, all cars should be subject to an annual inspection as part of registration - just like Germany.

As for speed limits, please keep in mind that it is possible to have high speed motorways only if you spend enough on the road surface to prevent it from being damaged by such high speed traffic (an Autobahn is built dramatically differently from the Hume) - unfortunately the distances in Australia make this impractical.

(Note The NT can get away with it due to low traffic volume ;-)

There's my 2c

[Sydneykid]

STFU and do the limit u fool. the speed limits aint just for driver skill, they take into account that in order for the car to physically stop in time u cannot be doing over a certain speed. unless ur super dooper driving skills cant make a car stop quicker (some situations this is true - granted)

So what determines the speed limit?

It can’t be stopping distance, otherwise why does a 2.5 tonne Land Cruiser have the right to do the same speed as I do, in a car that weighs less than half that, with twice the braking performance?

It can’t be manoeuvrability, for exactly the same reason.

It can’t be maintenance, I bet my cars are maintained far above the average land Cruiser.

The issue is the reality that everyone knows, some drivers and cars are safer at 100 kph than some other drivers and cars at 60 kph. That’s a fact, but there is no method that recognises it. The speed camera still goes flash at 60 kph, no matter what I am driving, how well my car is maintained or how good a driver I am.

So I am constrained to the same ridiculously low speed limits because me and my car are being judged by the lowest common denominator.

cheers

[djr81]

A couple of points spring to mind.

One of the most important parameters for the engineers designing roads & therefore defining the speed limits is traffic volume. The more traffic the lower the speed limit. We get it alot around here. Basically the sequence is:

Trafiic volume increases.

Govt refuses to spend any money on road upgrades.

Accidents become more frequent.

Speed limit gets lowered.

Approximately 6 billion speed cameras turn up 5 minutes after the speedlimit changes.

A win - win situation for our beloved government as they don't have to spend money on roads & they get more revenue from speeding fines. Yay.

Second point I would like to make is regarding driver training. I once worked for the vehicle devision of our State Energy Commission. At one stage they sent everyone out for driver training. The short term result? More accidents as everyone suddenly thought they were Nigel fkn Mansell.

Just remember people:

The track is the ONLY place to prove your talent.

Having talent won't necessarily prevent accidents, least of all if you are speeding.....

[mad082]

One of the most important parameters for the engineers designing roads & therefore defining the speed limits is traffic volume. The more traffic the lower the speed limit.

thats not entirely true. look at the main freeways. they have heaps off traffic, yet they have high traffic volumes. the street i live in has very little traffic but its speed limit is only 50. it is about zoning, not traffic volume. if you look on a town planning map you will see that where residential areas meet rural areas there will be a change from 60kmh to 80kmh. we have a few of these in the middle of town. there are 2 areas which are flood prone areas that are zoned rural with residential each side and they have 70kmh zones, with 60 each side. and these areas are only about 300m long.

[Sydneykid]

One of the most important parameters for the engineers designing roads & therefore defining the speed limits is traffic volume. The more traffic the lower the speed limit.

Glad you bought that point up, traffic determines speed limits, interesting…………

If that is the case, shouldn’t a road with a 60 kph speed limit in peak hour have a higher speed limit outside peak hour?

cheers

[dangerous_daveo]

So what determines the speed limit?

It can’t be stopping distance, otherwise why does a 2.5 tonne Land Cruiser have the right to do the same speed as I do, in a car that weighs less than half that, with twice the braking performance?

It can’t be manoeuvrability, for exactly the same reason.

It can’t be maintenance, I bet my cars are maintained far above the average land Cruiser.

The issue is the reality that everyone knows, some drivers and cars are safer at 100 kph than some other drivers and cars at 60 kph. That’s a fact, but there is no method that recognises it. The speed camera still goes flash at 60 kph, no matter what I am driving, how well my car is maintained or how good a driver I am.

So I am constrained to the same ridiculously low speed limits because me and my car are being judged by the lowest common denominator.

cheers

Fair point Gary. But if your coming up behind a car that is doing 40kmh less than you, and its a 4x4 or say a truck to really prove the point. You cant see whats in front of that. Then say someones skill limits them to 80kmh, and someone else can only do 40. I can see your point, but its not going to work in real life.

This is also the reason I think track days should be somewhat subsidised by the govt. At least for people who havent had speeding fines or the like. Reward them for doing the right thing. But hey, that costs money.

[dangerous_daveo]

Glad you bought that point up, traffic determines speed limits, interesting…………

If that is the case, shouldn’t a road with a 60 kph speed limit in peak hour have a higher speed limit outside peak hour?

cheers

Bringing that one up...

We have or had at least a few 'wildlife safe zones' where between dusk and dawn the speedlimit was less to reduce the animal road toll.

I belive the UK has some roads like that. Now Im not 100% sure, but watching topgear the other day, they were saying even with no congestion they put a sign up saying there is so they could drop the speedlimit to catch more people speeding. Being TG I have no idea how accurate the info really is. But you can see that system is open to abuse by the Govt.

[djr81]

thats not entirely true. look at the main freeways. they have heaps off traffic, yet they have high traffic volumes. the street i live in has very little traffic but its speed limit is only 50. it is about zoning, not traffic volume. if you look on a town planning map you will see that where residential areas meet rural areas there will be a change from 60kmh to 80kmh. we have a few of these in the middle of town. there are 2 areas which are flood prone areas that are zoned rural with residential each side and they have 70kmh zones, with 60 each side. and these areas are only about 300m long.

Read it again. I said ONE OF, not THE ONLY. Clearly it is about both & many other things besides.

Between where I live & Perth there have been any number of new housing developments put in in recent years. The result? Speed limits have been steadily reduced from, say 110 to 100, 80 to 70 etc etc etc. If you drive anywhere in country areas you will inevitably have speed limits reduce as you get near a town & the increase afterwards.

As for SK suggestion of speed limits being tied to vehicle volumes. Be nice, but the closest anyone will ever get is the police acting like complete Nazi's when people want to go away for any given long week end. Not sure that is quite what you mean...

[mad082]

As for driver training - I fully agree that it is way too easy to get a licence in Oz and better training would certainly lower the road toll

back when i got licence it was 3 strikes and you failed. shortly after it was changed to 7 or so strikes. now that just shows that they are too easy to get.

also the road death toll doesn't include people that die after being in hospital on life support for 2 months. it only show the number of people who die on site, on the way to hospital, or within about 2 days of the car crash.

[mad082]

Read it again. I said ONE OF, not THE ONLY. Clearly it is about both & many other things besides.

my bad

Between where I live & Perth there have been any number of new housing developments put in in recent years. The result? Speed limits have been steadily reduced from, say 110 to 100, 80 to 70 etc etc etc.

that would probably be because of the zoning changing from rural to residential.

[justin911]

i thought skidpans etc etc were meant to be so u can have fun under safe conditions.............. ? It lets people do stupid stuff that they cant do on the roads, and thus keeps them from doing it on the road

Obviously you'll get retards who will try stuff out on the road, but there the same people that watch fast and furious and then become fully sik drifters

Ahhh but here is the trick. Dont put them on a skidpan until they are responsible enough to understand why the skidpan is used.

[djr81]

my bad

that would probably be because of the zoning changing from rural to residential.

Nah, mate. I promise you it is not.

Actually what it is mostly about is having a state government with its head stuck so far up it's arse that they keep on delaying the Mandurah bypass simply because they believe they can get more political mileage arguing with Johnnie Howard's lot that actually doing something for the country residents that they recently disenfranchised. Fkn $2 billion a year surplus & they "can't" afford to built a road worth a few hundred million.

A don't get me started about what they have done to the speed limits out the back of Donnybrook because of all the log trucks now running up to Bunbury. Why more log trucks? Because the government allowed a perfectly good railway line to be shutdown. How many people did that decision kill? :laugh:

Edited June 26, 2006 by djr81

[mad082]

gotta love the government and their spending. we got a local group at the moment that are nearly as bad as the government. there are plans to build a mega dam here and they haven't even finished the testing to see if the dam wall can be built, but people are spening tens of thousands of dollars to help the protest before it has even been confirmed that the dam will be built. if it turns out that they can't even build the dam then that is a shit load of money they won't see again.

half of the people that it affects are farmers who are constantly complaining that it costs more money to run than what they are making. and the goverment is going to buy them out and compensate them, but they don't want to sell. if it was me i'd be asking where to sign. i farmer turned down an offer of 15 million.

ok, thats my hijack over

[dangerous_daveo]

i thought skidpans etc etc were meant to be so u can have fun under safe conditions.............. ? It lets people do stupid stuff that they cant do on the roads, and thus keeps them from doing it on the road

Obviously you'll get retards who will try stuff out on the road, but there the same people that watch fast and furious and then become fully sik drifters

See thats the problem.

We use it for that. But they are designed to teach people how to control a slide. So they dont crash, or can at least control the slide enough to try and limit injury and damage. This is where the problem is. If drivers dont understand the basic defencive driving to start with they think the skidpan is purely for fun, and they can now skid around everywhere. Skid/slide control should be a last resort measure. If you are doing everything else right you shouldnt ever be in the situation to use those skills. However deseil and oil do find their way on to the roads, hence being prepared for anything.

Which is why many of the young people defencive courses are now removing the skidpan, it gets done later if you have done this and this and are this old.

That make sense?

[justin911]

i get what your saying and i kinda agree... with me personaly though.. ive only been on a skidpan once and it wasnt an educational-teach-you-howto drive type thing.

It was good though because i got to do things i would never do (or evan want to do) out on the roads.

But yeah im sure theres some ppls who would do it and then practice out on the streets etc...

See thats the problem.

We use it for that. But they are designed to teach people how to control a slide. So they dont crash, or can at least control the slide enough to try and limit injury and damage. This is where the problem is. If drivers dont understand the basic defencive driving to start with they think the skidpan is purely for fun, and they can now skid around everywhere. Skid/slide control should be a last resort measure. If you are doing everything else right you shouldnt ever be in the situation to use those skills. However deseil and oil do find their way on to the roads, hence being prepared for anything.

Which is why many of the young people defencive courses are now removing the skidpan, it gets done later if you have done this and this and are this old.

That make sense?

[dangerous_daveo]

Thats the problem. But you got to look at it 9/10 will learn from it, and take on what they learnt the proper way. The others will think they are made of steel anyway.

Put it this way, Id say its got a higher sucsess rate than the Australian school system.

And you would have learnt something from a skidpan day if you realised it or not.

[mad082]

when i was in year 12 we did a driver training course at road craft. it was partly on the skid pan and partly on a road track they had. it was more focusing on road rules and wet weather conditions. the cars were automatic hyundai sonatra's so there was no chance of oversteer. it showed us about braking in the wet when turning, braking and trying not to lock the wheels up, etc. and it was to help the people who had never driven a car learn the basics, like steering, braking and accelerating, all in a controlled enviroment.

the smartest kid in the class (major computer nerd) thought that if you took you foot off the gas they'd slow down themselves, like a jetski.