Tough Drift Suspension Setup In A R31 For $800?

[someonestolecc]

Was going to put in second hands teins or similar. I understand they might be shagged - I'm willing to gamble.

Then I was offered HDS for $750 3 months old. So I thought I'd put that in.

Then I read a post by SydneyKid saying the oil wasn't going to cop a lot of abuse drifting.

What are my options for $800 for drift suspension? I don't mind about being hard, but I don't want a car that will start drifting itself at 80km/h in a corner - not confidence inspiring in what will still be a road registered car.

Should I just save another $800 and pay up?

It will be in a r31 running sr20det hubs/brakes with 16x7 wheels on the front and 16x8 on the back. I will put in strut tower brace and it will have a locked diff. I'll hopefully also be turbo'ing the rb30 in it. It's aus delivered (4 door with stock glass) but stripped body.

Anyone have any ideas? Please only post if you have direct experience working with a race/rally team or regulary put your car on the track. Reason is I can deal with the street implications, it's just that I don't want 3rd hand accounts, hearsay or the usual "it's firm but ok except for bumps." << not helpful :\

[Sydneykid]

Was going to put in second hands teins or similar. I understand they might be shagged - I'm willing to gamble.

Then I was offered HDS for $750 3 months old. So I thought I'd put that in.

Then I read a post by SydneyKid saying the oil wasn't going to cop a lot of abuse drifting.

What are my options for $800 for drift suspension? I don't mind about being hard, but I don't want a car that will start drifting itself at 80km/h in a corner - not confidence inspiring in what will still be a road registered car.

Should I just save another $800 and pay up?

It will be in a r31 running sr20det hubs/brakes with 16x7 wheels on the front and 16x8 on the back. I will put in strut tower brace and it will have a locked diff.

Use what springs and shocks you already have and throw some big (adjustable) stabiliser bars on it. Under $500, stabiliser bars are always the best value for money handling upgrade. Plus you can adjust the handling balance easily while you have it jacked up to change the tyres. Try that with springs.

cheers

[MANWHORE]

Hey tom

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, even though you said you don't want 2nd hand experience.

I was thinking about buying a 31 myself to muck around in and not be worried about denting it. I asked fatz numerous questions, s13 suspensions fit. I have been playing around with an aussie r31 too that my friend isn't using.

Atm, it handles like shit because the suspensions are shot. I will be trying to fit a set of stock s13 suspensions when I can find a set. Will let you know how it goes. hopefully it should be quite an improvement over the dead ones. I'm trying to do this on a tight budget though and you migh be looking for something a lot better.

reason for edit: my drunken spelling.

Edited July 6, 2006 by 97r33gtst-typeM

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

on a tight budget, you can't expect the car to be handling that brilliantly. drift is a lot more forgiving on crappy setups than circuit work due to lower speeds involved. Sure you will learn slower with a crappy setup, but you can learn the fundamentals in any rwd car with an lsd/locker

just do what you can, and you can gradually start getting things to improve your setup. Drift battle ran a couple of issues with guides on how to set up an r31 for drift, i've had a friend who has tried this and just be wary that the magazine makes it sound alot simpler than it actually is (s13 suspension/hub/brake conversion)

I haven't really played around with stiffer swaybars, it's usually something people go for later down the track because most of the jap coilovers have high enough spring rates to compensate for body roll fairly well.

when i started drifting about 2 years ago, it was with a stock r32 with, shot coilovers (which came with car from japan), welded diff, tien castor rods. That was about it handling wise. And was enough to learn the basics, but pretty scary when you start using 3rd gear 100km+ (with shot coilovers, hicas, shitty wheel alignment... but hey, u use what u got...)

you can give the secondhand tiens a shot, they aren't gonna be great but usually better than stock for learning. Then once you build up skills and hit the track, time to save up for something decent.

my advise would be what you've planned (strip interior, locked diff, s13 brakes/hubs, s13 coilovers (shot tiens will do for now, easy to upgrade later), some cheapo pillowball castor rods, wheel alignment)

save the rest of the cash for now, you'll probably use it to pay for track entry (or defects). Future upgrades would be power mods, better coilovers (get camber top plates), tie rods, swaybars, other handling mods.

the car is manual yeah?

Edited July 6, 2006 by MerlinTheHapyPig

[someonestolecc]

Sydneykid - this is the most interesting piece of advice ever. Stabiliser bars - I'm going to assume that they're the same as sway bars - would this be correct?

The car is probably nearing 200k+ if not 100k more, as far as I know it's still on stock suspension. Even with the stock springs and shocks you're saying stabiliser bars are the best thing I can do at that budget?

I should have probably mentioned it will be accepting s13 suspension to go in, as the arms and stuff will all be s13. Considering that fact, is a couple of hundred dollars worth of stabiliser bars is going to be better than a set of HDS coilovers?

Perhaps between the lines I should be reading that you're saying save more money to get some decent suspension in there?

typeM and merlin - not trying to be rude and I appreciate the time spent posting but I don't need a how to of drift or plans for your car in this thread (no offense! )

[Sydneykid]

Sydneykid - this is the most interesting piece of advice ever. Stabiliser bars - I'm going to assume that they're the same as sway bars - would this be correct?

The car is probably nearing 200k+ if not 100k more, as far as I know it's still on stock suspension. Even with the stock springs and shocks you're saying stabiliser bars are the best thing I can do at that budget?

I should have probably mentioned it will be accepting s13 suspension to go in, as the arms and stuff will all be s13. Considering that fact, is a couple of hundred dollars worth of stabiliser bars is going to be better than a set of HDS coilovers?

Perhaps between the lines I should be reading that you're saying save more money to get some decent suspension in there?

Sway bars = stabiliser bars = antiroll bars

Adjustable stabiliser bars are $219 each on the Group Buy

You budget was $800. No spring and shock combo that you buy for $800 is going to be remotely suitable for your purpose. So $438 spent on stabiliser bars will give a much better result. Get out there and have a go you will be surprised at how much difference they make.

Plus you have $362 (out of your $800) saved, which is a good start on your way to affording some decent springs and shocks.

If you spend $800 on springs and shocks now, you will only throw them away very soon, once you find out how crappy they are. Big waste of $800. The stabiliser bars you will use forever.

cheers

Edited July 6, 2006 by Sydneykid

[someonestolecc]

SK - That's a BIG call and will take me a great deal of faith to spend my suspension budget on what are essentially 2 rods

I just need confirmation - even if I can get the HDS coilovers for $750, then use the extra $50 to get another sway bar to do the dodgy style and attach it to the other stock one... Will this setup be worse then your suggested whiteline bars?

Alternatively, would it be better to save to $1200 or whatever and get myself a decent set of suspension, without the rods? The advantage I see here is that my car's centre of gravity will also be lower.

Oorrr are you saying I will need the rods ANY WHICH way I go, and so I may as well get them first for the most marked improvement? I mean, won't the car still boat? The pitching on brakes right now is RIDICULOUS.

Sorry to ask what seems to be the same question - I'm sure you get enough people on here asking your advice, not believing it and then doing their own thing anyway, but I'd like to be really sure before I take the plunge and get the rods, instead of the coilovers.

Amazing... <scared>

[Sydneykid]

SK - That's a BIG call and will take me a great deal of faith to spend my suspension budget on what are essentially 2 rods

I just need confirmation - even if I can get the HDS coilovers for $750, then use the extra $50 to get another sway bar to do the dodgy style and attach it to the other stock one... Will this setup be worse then your suggested whiteline bars?

Alternatively, would it be better to save to $1200 or whatever and get myself a decent set of suspension, without the rods? The advantage I see here is that my car's centre of gravity will also be lower.

Oorrr are you saying I will need the rods ANY WHICH way I go, and so I may as well get them first for the most marked improvement? I mean, won't the car still boat? The pitching on brakes right now is RIDICULOUS.

Sorry to ask what seems to be the same question - I'm sure you get enough people on here asking your advice, not believing it and then doing their own thing anyway, but I'd like to be really sure before I take the plunge and get the rods, instead of the coilovers.

Amazing... <scared>

I have explained this to many would be drifters, a handfull believed me and tried the stabiliser bars and were amazed at the results. They could actually back off the rear bar (while changing from the bald rear tyres) and drive their car home normally, without instantaneous sideways action, even in the rain.

The Jap’s invented drifting (and good on ‘em) but they have no history of stabiliser bar upgrades. So they went for rock hard springs and shocks, something that they are all too familiar with. The drifters here are justly slavishly following their lead (who can blaim them). Except the ones with circuit racing experience, they know the advantages of tuning the handling balance with adjustable stabiliser bars.

Honestly I really don’t care if you buy some stabiliser bars or not. I don’t make any money from selling stuff. I am only telling you because it is technically the best solution and it fits into your budget.

cheers

Edited July 6, 2006 by Sydneykid

[someonestolecc]

Honestly I really don’t care if you buy some stabiliser bars or not. I don’t make any money from selling stuff. I am only telling you because it is technically the best solution and it fits into your budget.

cheers

That was never the thought SK - I just needed confirmation. I'm just concerned that with old suspension it'll still boat forward and back.

I take it if I get the stabiliser bars, it would still be advisable for me to get new suspension right? (The upgrade path...)

Also - if this was NOT driven on the road, would I be able to get away with NON adjustable sway bars (hence cheaper). Because for a r31 this is always an option

Thanks again

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

you said you're adopting s13 hub/brake setup anyway, if you go adjustable swaybars you'll still have to do something about getting s13 suspension aswell. So compare cost of stock s13 suspension v aftermarket + swaybars (might wanna also check if r31 swaybars will work with all of the s13 stuff)

Just keep in mind, aftermarket s13 coilovers will also give you camber adjustment and height adjustment.

I have no objection to people using adjustable swaybars, i just don't recommend them because i haven't had a chance to try them in my own car so can't comment. I'd like to try them, it's on my list of stuff to buy!

SK, i'd like to try the full bilstein/whiteline groupbuy setup for drift, if only i had enough money to spend on experimenting with these things! if you know of anyone competing at Drift Australia/Forumla Drift level using it? i'd be keen to have a chat with them.

[someonestolecc]

you said you're adopting s13 hub/brake setup anyway, if you go adjustable swaybars you'll still have to do something about getting s13 suspension aswell. So compare cost of stock s13 suspension v aftermarket + swaybars (might wanna also check if r31 swaybars will work with all of the s13 stuff)

That's a very good thought. I might have to look around for stock stuff for cheap and use that... very good idea thank you.

SK, i'd like to try the full bilstein/whiteline groupbuy setup for drift, if only i had enough money to spend on experimenting with these things! if you know of anyone competing at Drift Australia/Forumla Drift level using it? i'd be keen to have a chat with them.

I'm not entirely sure there's anyone out there like that. Fair enough you want endorsement but SK's tuning school of thought is from the "circuit" (and probably much more), rather than the J-styles of chuck in hard ass'ed coilovers. All drifters would be going down the latter path (makes sense really as that's where the sponsorship products and market are).

SK's suggestion, atleast my interpretation of it, is that there's an inherently better way of achieving the same result. I daresay extrapolating the same theory of using adjustable stabiliser bars would probably apply to SK's speced suspension setup. It would just mean you could drive home in the wet without going sideways, go on a circuit track and set it up for circuit laps, and also tighten everything to drift.

Atleast that's my take.

[djr81]

At the risk of being entirely unhelpful, maybe I can put my 10 cents worth in.

I have upgraded the suspension on my car in steps - first the sway bars, then the coils/shocks then fine tuned the ride heights/camber/caster/toe settings etc.

From doing that I can assure you that upgrading the sway bars first is the best first step. Why? Because it allows two things:

1. Less lateral weight transference in roll which helps make the car easier to drift.

2. Adjustability via the sway bar settings which allows you a better first set up.

The important thing to note is that the sway bar setting will, in all probability, change if/when you change springs. So getting fixed sway bars mean you are either compromising your set up on stock springs, or compromise it later on when you have upgraded the springs as well. If you are really unlucky your fixed swaybars will be wrong for both types of springs.

As for the argument about spring rates: from using the whiteline springs on the circuit I would be inclined to use a higher rear spring rate to reduce the amount of squat the car gets when accelerating/drifting. This is somewhat different to the basic philosophy whiteline used when developing their packages.

Bottom line:

You are not going to get a good set up for $800. At the end of the day you need to do both springs and sway bars. So just start with $450 for adjustable bars & save for the rest.

Edited July 7, 2006 by djr81

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

my main worry is not knowing how well the car will work for drift, with swaybars + stock suspension. It's something i've never tried, which is why i'm more inclined to suggest a "prooven" solution.

have you SK, or djr81 tried drifting a car with aftermarket swaybars and stock suspension? (this is more of a practical comment, i'm not questioning anyone's credibility)

My argument here isn't that you *shouldn't* get aftermarket swaybars, it's that you shouldn't use stock springs/shocks regardless of what you do with the swaybars.

as far as driving home in the wet is concerned, i'm using quantum coilovers with 8kg/mm springs (this is a fairly common 'jap' spring rate), and with the damper softened up on the rear, driving home in the wet isn't an issue.

I've seen people try to drift with stock swaybars and stock suspension, and it isn't pretty. Now, i've also drifted my own car, with ~$2000-$3000 suspension and stock swaybars, and a friends car with $8000 suspension and whiteline adjustable swaybars, and dispite the fact that my friends car is much better setup overall, body roll isn't an issue for either car, and i can drift either of them with relative ease.

[djr81]

Merlin, I don't think anyone is arguing against the assertion that a spring + sway bar package will be infinitely better than either springs alone or sway bars alone.

My point is that the amount of adjustment (& adjustability) you get from sway bars is more than what you get from springs alone. You dramatically cut the amount of body roll on stock suspension when you install the whiteline sway bars. So maybe it works both ways.

Using high spring rates (& 8kg/mm is high) & lower ride heights greatly reduces the influence of the stock sway bars. Using the uprated sway bars restores their influence on the cars handling. For $450 you get your adjustability back.

What I have done on my car has been geared toward generating grip at the fron as a means to better my lap times. The rear end only really comes along for the ride. That said one adjustment on the anti roll bars at either end of the car makes a substantial difference to the handling. Drifting only happens when someone else has an oil down or I crack the shits for one reason or another.

The other factor no one has really picked up on is the diff. Different diff, different suspension set up. Someonestolecc is suggesting using a locked diff & then in the same paragraph talking about driving it on the road.

From what I have seen the only thing proven is that trying to drift on too tight a budget just ends up looking ghey.

Edited July 7, 2006 by djr81

[MerlinTheHapyPig]

well, i think everyone here has valid points! I'm not trying to be argumentative, i'm just encouraging discussion of different points of view.

locked diffs aren't that bad on the street (i drove my r32 with one for about 6 months as a daily), but it would probably rule out the possibility of using the car for circuit racing. You have to treat it with a bit of respect in the wet, but as long as you know what you are doing and don't have "drifted on" tyres on the rear, you're always in control. Though i have pretty much ruled myself out of any circuit work or twisties cruises for most part.

the way i see it, both have the following benefits...

swaybars - can adjust stiffness, oversteer/understeer etc.

jap coilovers - stiffer springs, can adjust height, damper and camber. I've found damper can be used to a small extent, to adjust stiffness between front/rear, i.e. car will understeer on full soft rear, and oversteer on full hard rear. (skyline's don't get camber tops, but s13's do)

As i mentioned before, drifting tends to be more forgiving on crappy setups, because you aren't going as fast and you don't ride/jump ripple strips like you do in circuit.

I don't really object to taking the swaybar approach as a first option, but ideally you'd still need aftermarket springs/shocks of some description anyway.

The way i look at it, is that you can have jap coilovers with stock swaybars and still have a good 'drift' setup. But you'd be struggling with aftermarket swaybars and stock springs/shocks.

[djr81]

Probably two ways of skinning a cat & maybe not much to choose between them.

Couple things:

Not sure a locked (welded) diff is legal - certainly isn't over in WA. I would much rather they be confined to the circuit than go on the road. They are actually fine for circuit work, but the have slightly odd effects on the cars handling - I for one don't like seeing them used on the road.

Skyline's can get camber adjustment - you just have to do it by a different means, ie adjust the effective length of the upper arms.

[someonestolecc]

Interesting viewpoints guys.

I don't think anyone is arguing against having a well sorted suspension package. SK has stayed on topic by saying for <$800 bars are the best bang for buck. I've taken that advice (the wallet just hasn't caught up).

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of spending so much money and NOT changing my suspension - so I've actually decided to stretch the budget to get coilovers AND the stabiser bars. Just gotta wait for the tax return and I'll PM SK with the part numbers

I think ultimately it just means I can get more forgiving suspension that'll let me be better suited to the street and circuit, as well as having the ability to tune for drifting. Funnily I don't know if there are forgiving coilovers out there... as I'm not going to spend money on a bilstein setup for a fridge.

I'm going to refrain from articulating my thoughts on political correctness that stifles academic endeavours - best to stay on topic

Thanks again.

[Wheezy]

UMMMMMMMMMMMM you are all forgetting that R31's have Mc Phearson strut setup ALA S13 in the front therefore camper adjustment is a pissa and the rear end of an aussie R31 is live axle so theres no worrying about camber adjustment.

Some pillowball top coilovers with some whiteline swaybars, and adjustable castor bars is abous as much as you can do in an aussie R31.

[VHR32]

I would get the biggest front and rear Whiteline adjustable sway bars made for an R31 (make sure R31's fit with S13 front end).

Replace flogged out bushes if their is any.

Make some adjustable radius rods and dial in as much positive castor as possible

Buy some rear King Springs for the rear (wreckers?), and maybe some for the front (can always sell them later) or even chop out a coil if your game...

Approx $800 spent and then you can have a bit of fun while you save for new Jap brand name coil overs.

[someonestolecc]

Thanks guys appreciate it. I'll go with a combination of whats been written