The Great Dyno E-Doodle debate

[mad082]

going by your figure of r33 = 125kw stock...

after you put on a exhaust/fmic/powerfc you got 85kw increase... (210 - 125kw = 85)

and going by what you have said about a stock ecu not being able to be higher than 150kw, you got 60kw from the pfc alone. which a 40% power increase. thats amazing. your tuner must be magic. that means that with 40% extra power, on my happy dyno i would be able to get 285kw with a pfc. cool!!!!!

[paulr33]

well beyond the point of anything useful now

[dezz]

well beyond the point of anything useful now

not really. just that someone took the time to prove "the mafia" has no idea on this particular subject.

[paulr33]

well this conversation has turned into lets prove so and so right or wrong. like a lot of our conversations. the mafia is a respected member and has certainly the technical knowledge regarding his posts.

there are many factors that will give a car its power output. temperature, dyno settings, environment, where various sensors are placed, is the bonnett up, whats the ramp rate and so on. it could be his first dyno run had the bonnet down and his final tune run had the bonnet up. this would induce cooler air temps into the air intake and so on. we could go on for ages about why and what not's but the point is, that it does not matter. we are arguging for the sake of it, to prove who has the biggest penis in the sandpit. we are too cuaght up in dismissing each others power figures that weve skewed onto an alternate topic, instead of the one this thread was about, which is power increases.

but rest aside, jono has an idea i can assure you.

[dezz]

dont tell me what i'm arguing

this guy is telling us that R33's do not make 140rwkw stock, and cannot make over 150rwkw without fuel management.

Both of those statements are ludicrous at best.

[paulr33]

im not gonna bother, mods will probably delete it all anyway

[Guest IH8VEE8S]

125rwkw stock, actually.

your 96 GTST only makes 25kw more than my 93 NA?

:sorcerer: :sorcerer: :sorcerer:

[Quinny]

I suspect that the 125kw figure was done on a lazy dyno. My mates Commodore ute, with a 5.0L V8 - 165kw at the fly from factory, made 127rwkw totally stock, including exhaust. And I have seen countless other 165kw 5.0L Commodores make 125-130rwkw. Now, the R33 GTS-T makes 187kw at the fly from factory, so surely it must make a little more than 125kw at the wheels, given basically the same drivetrain as the commodore (i.e. manual gearbox, RWD, LSD etc).

There is no way to tell which dyno is "accurate", so this conversation is kind of leading itself around in circles.

[mad082]

the thing here is that themafia has gone and said a ridiculus statement, and has nothing to back it up. he is claiming a) that the dyno he went on is accurate and that it is impossible for any stock r33 to make more power than that (meaning that either he had the most powerful stock r33, or that all r33 have EXACTLY the same amount of power stock), b) that it is impossible to have a r33 with more than 150kw with the stock ecu. both of these statements are crap.

i have been to dyno shootouts where there have been stock cars there, same model, year, similar k's, etc, and they didn't make exactly the same power. there was about 10hp difference.

also it is rather ridiculus to say that it is impossible to get 150kw from a slightly modified r33. and this then implies that every dyno graph in the dyno section is wrong. if someone dyno's at 170kw without a pfc that is apparently wrong, so if they then get a pfc and dyno on the same dyno at 180kw, then shouldn't this also be wrong? this can then be extended to say that most people have dyno'd on a dyno that has shown a figure over 150kw for a r33 with stock ecu, which could then be said that everyones figures are grossly inaccurate.

and how can themafia know for sure that his is accurate?

Edited July 17, 2006 by mad082

[The Mafia]

well, now that I am home, I'll explain.

I've heard numerous times that Skylines make about 125rwkw maybe 130rwkw stock. Mine did. On 2 different dynos. Dyno Dynamics dynos.

I added and exhaust, interooler, and a little bit of boost (10psi), it made a bit more power, but not that much... So off to the dyno, and it made 142rwkw. As a little test, I upped the boost to 12psi (beyond boost cut.) The car made a cool 118rwkw.

Then I bought a powerfc, and had a full tune. First tune was 198rwkw with 13psi and 400nm or torque. Second tune with Toluene was 209rwkw with 420nm of torque. This was on the same dyno. Its very common knowledge that a standard turbo won't make anymore than about 210rwkw. We've seen a little more on extreme cases. So yeah, my car made the usual power target that most educated people on SAU seem to know. Seems like this dyno is proving to be fairly accurate (or not over active) hey?

my car went from ok, to breaking a lot of traction, hence the massive increase in power.

And yes, because you start mouthing off saying "blah blah so your powerfc made 100000kwsdifference hey?" They do. The aftermarket ECU or fuel controller make HEAPS of difference in these cars as the factory ECU runsstupidly rich.

So you're wondering how I know all of this?

I tune my car, myself. I've seen the AFR's, I've seen the curves, and factory ECU's are crap.

Someone originally came here and said they made 190rwkw without and aftermarket ECU or fuel controller. That my friend, is complete bullshit. You simply cannot make that much power unless the factory ECU has been modified in some way. Stock, not a chance in hell. If the dyno says that, then its WAY out. By a mile.

Someone ever said originally - the particular dyno that the car was tested on is very happy on giving high figures.

Since my little stint with the factory turbo, I've since upgraded to a garrett GT30 550hp, 555cc injectors, Datalogit, Water methanol injection, etc etc.

My car smokes the tyres as soon as it comes on boost in second, with not help what so ever. Even if I short shift from first to second, and simply put it to the floor at about 1500rpm, it will break out right to the rev limiter starting at about 3,000rpm. Cuts a fair bit sick in third too. So yeah, all of my own tuning. You can sit there and say I don't have a clue. But tell me, when was the last time you fully tuned your ECU and actually knew what it was doing, or had a lot of experience with power increases?

Anyway...

Yeah, Skylines are not that powerful stock...

Edited July 17, 2006 by The Mafia

[mad082]

what you have to realise is that the stock ecu performs differently on different cars. i went on the dyno just before a mate of mine and i got 20hp more than him. same dyno, same day (one after the other), pretty similar mods (both with front mounts, pods, 11psi boost, 3" turbo to cat and both with 3.5"cat back), both with stock ecu's. and in know its stock cause i now have a remapped ecu and the chip is different (much bigger). his power is pretty much on par with most people on this forum. and by both seat of the pants, and on the road side by side, my car is quicker.

and just because you can tune your own car doesn't mean you know anything. it means you can read instructions.

[Cubes]

When I had my R32 dyno'd there too was an R33 that was 100% dead stock. Mine 100% stock made 115rwkw, the R33 made 125rwkw.

After an exhaust, fmic and a little boost the same R33 went on to make 178rwkw. That R33 was featured in a Zoom magazine around 3.5years ago. It was featuring a fuel pressure reg bleeder and I also remeber the same R33 was used in a stock ic vs aftermarket fmic pressure drop test.

With a set of slicks it went on to run somewhere in the 12's, I don't remember the exact time.

Some who have been around for a while may remember, maybe not remember the 1/4 run as that was not featured in zoom.

Then there was the one freak R33, Running an exhaust and a bit of boost it was a slow POS making 160 something rwkw. He dropped an fmic in and it simply went crazy, ~200rwkw, once again I forget the exact figure as it has been some time, it went on to run a low 13sec 1/4. So the power was backed up by its 1/4 run. That was a 95 series 1.5 freak.

I truley do believe there are so called freak R33 ecu's, this r33 in question had no signs of R&R it was a perfect power curve with perfect afr's on the stock ecu.

There were other R33's at the time with the same mods making high 170's so it was 100% a freak, no safc nothing, just a freak.

My R32 at the time was making 152rwkw on 12psi, exhaust & stock ic. I spanked the R33 before he dropped in the fmic, the fmic for what ever reason really woke it up. I still don't understand it.

[Coupe-This]

well, now that I am home, I'll explain.

I've heard numerous times that Skylines make about 125rwkw maybe 130rwkw stock. Mine did. On 2 different dynos. Dyno Dynamics dynos.

I added and exhaust, interooler, and a little bit of boost (10psi), it made a bit more power, but not that much... So off to the dyno, and it made 142rwkw. As a little test, I upped the boost to 12psi (beyond boost cut.) The car made a cool 118rwkw.

Then I bought a powerfc, and had a full tune. First tune was 198rwkw with 13psi and 400nm or torque. Second tune with Toluene was 209rwkw with 420nm of torque. This was on the same dyno. Its very common knowledge that a standard turbo won't make anymore than about 210rwkw. We've seen a little more on extreme cases. So yeah, my car made the usual power target that most educated people on SAU seem to know. Seems like this dyno is proving to be fairly accurate (or not over active) hey?

my car went from ok, to breaking a lot of traction, hence the massive increase in power.

And yes, because you start mouthing off saying "blah blah so your powerfc made 100000kwsdifference hey?" They do. The aftermarket ECU or fuel controller make HEAPS of difference in these cars as the factory ECU runsstupidly rich.

So you're wondering how I know all of this?

I tune my car, myself. I've seen the AFR's, I've seen the curves, and factory ECU's are crap.

Someone originally came here and said they made 190rwkw without and aftermarket ECU or fuel controller. That my friend, is complete bullshit. You simply cannot make that much power unless the factory ECU has been modified in some way. Stock, not a chance in hell. If the dyno says that, then its WAY out. By a mile.

Someone ever said originally - the particular dyno that the car was tested on is very happy on giving high figures.

Since my little stint with the factory turbo, I've since upgraded to a garrett GT30 550hp, 555cc injectors, Datalogit, Water methanol injection, etc etc.

My car smokes the tyres as soon as it comes on boost in second, with not help what so ever. Even if I short shift from first to second, and simply put it to the floor at about 1500rpm, it will break out right to the rev limiter starting at about 3,000rpm. Cuts a fair bit sick in third too. So yeah, all of my own tuning. You can sit there and say I don't have a clue. But tell me, when was the last time you fully tuned your ECU and actually knew what it was doing, or had a lot of experience with power increases?

Anyway...

Yeah, Skylines are not that powerful stock...

SICK !!! all i saw was blah blah blah .. tis funny, u were like rah rah rah this rah rah that, and now all of a sudden this upgraded turbo injectors etc ... oooh funnily enough, no power figure its just ... it smokes my tyres

well, plenty of cars can do that, some without power some with

poor suspension and shit tyres is common. im guessing ur suspension has a gay setup ...

u cant tune your suspension ...

a manual gearbox generally takes roughly 12% drivetrain loss, the drivetrain (whether its 1 peice or 2 peice) and diff also suck a little bit of power also ... so 187 - 125, whats the differance in that ... im no good at maths, but the calculations dont really add up

ive had a vlt that made 161rwkw with just a turboback ... wasnt dyno'd before hand ... but im guessing it was a generous dyno ... funnily enough it seemed to smoke gen 3 v8's that made 225 at the flywheel ...

if u want a good argument towards a dyno ... they are all wrong they are there as a tuning tool to make sure all the afr's are correct and the car is making maximum power that it can from that tune.

safely.

Strapping the car down a certain way i beleive can also alter readings slightly. whether they punch in diff ratio tyre pressures and sizes all correctly all alter the readings

i will also once again add, whales (r33's) are measured in knots ...

as it was deleted beforehand

[justin911]

regardless of what ppl on sau say about what they make stock... blah blah blah

how did yours make 125kw stock... and then 210kw (85kw differance) with exhaust/intercooler/pfc ??

exhaust lets say 30kw...

fmic - i didnt think it added much/any.. but say 5kw...

pfc tune - 30kw

= 65kw...

where is your car picking up the extra 20kw from ?? (85kw - 65kw = 20kw)

im sure some ppls cars make 125kw as each dyno gives a differant result, as everyone has stated and im sure everyone agrees with... im just curious how you somehow got an extra 20kw ???

[Cubes]

Here's a link to the dyno day some time ago..

The R33 in question was Bugalugs.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...?showtopic=4736

Grepins R33 was running the usual mods and a PFC.

Damn that was almost 4years ago.

Coupe-This, The old VLT's have some awesome potential, a recentish dyno day had a mate of mines vlt running 187rwkw with a 2.5" exhaust (no cat) and boost. No other mods. Then the R33's would jump on with the pfc's and make 190rwkwish.

The VLT... A very underestimated car.

[justin911]

were talking about manuals btw ya ????

cause ive seen a few auto's make around 125kw...

also when i just put my exhaust on i made about 167kw...

so going by the 125kw theory.... 167 - 125 = 42kw...

whereas... 167 - 140 = 27kw...

unless exhausts suddenly make upto 40+kw differance ???

[mad082]

maybe it was that the dyno you ran on after you did your exhaust was lazy. as there are dozens of people on here that have 170-180kw with turbo back exhaust and cooler. so it is safe to safe that that is the general power that they make that sort of power.

and generally a powerfc or safc gives you about 30kw, so that would take your power back down to 180kw. i know a guy that got a 30kw gain from both a safc and a powerfc (no gain between safc and pfc) and is now in the 190-200kw range (dyno runs done before and after). i extremely doubt you could get a 50-60kw gain from a pfc... unless the stock had been remapped to empty the fuel tank into the head.

[dezz]

lol, you're all wrong, all the dynos you've been on are wrong

the mafia is right, his car is the benchmark, his dyno readouts are spot on

[justin911]

one last thing, themafia dont you use 95octane petrol or something ???

wouldnt that make you get less power than say someone using 98 ??

[mad082]

lol, you're all wrong, all the dynos you've been on are wrong

the mafia is right, his car is the benchmark, his dyno readouts are spot on

i didn't want to be the first to give in. but now someone else has i will too.

you are right 'themafia', i'm wrong. your internet dick is much bigger than mine.

Edited July 17, 2006 by mad082