Amp On A Budget?

[Xizor]

Hey

Im in the process of working out what audio gear i want in my s2r33 - its currently got the stock stuff in it.

I am pretty much decided on the Pioneer TSD160R's for front splits, and probably a JVC or Pioneer deck (i like pretty decks). Do the rear split in the shelf really matter or doesnt it make much difference what u got there?

And of course, i need an amp. I dont wanna spend alot, i dont even plan on getting a sub as i dont need deep rumbling shuddering bass. If i do get a sub it wont be straight away and nothing over the top. So i am after an amp that meets these needs and compliments what im getting - a decent sounding system.

Suggestions?

Also, i am in sydney and will probably have to get this stuff installed cos im shit.

[fr0st]

You probably won't need an amp if your not buying a sub.

If you don't have a sub your front and rears need to make all the bass and bass require alot of cone movement. When the cone moves for a big bass note the rest of the sound will be distorted unless you have a 3 way system. This always happens way before the 25Wrms the headunit will put out for most, if not all, 6.5inch speakers.

If your going to go all out get a sub & amp combo and then highpass the front and rears so you can use all your headunits power. Highpassing removes the bass so there are no more low frequencies unsetting your mid range. Also getting an amp won't gain any sound quality unless you have a really terrible deck.

Your probably better off spending the money on sound deadening or better speakers. If you really want an amp, Jaycar have the best bang for your buck amps.

Definately get splits for the front. Having the tweeter mounted at ear level makes a huge difference to the quality. The rears arn't as important, afterall you don't sit in the back to listen to music

Remember that when you talk to someone you look at them. You definately don't see people talking standing back to back... just apply the same thing to your car. You want the sound to come from in front of you. Best thing I can reccommend is getting bassy speakers for the rear to act as best as possible like a sub. You won't hear the midrange/treble much from them since your sitting close to your front speakers... but try not to drag the sound stage backwards. Bass isn't directional like midrange and treble so you can't tell where its coming from.

And whatever you do, don't buy from strathfield

There you go, n00b car audio 101 :sorcerer:

[frx026]

One thing you will notice that as you go up in the range of product offereings such as the pioneer tsd160's over the tsc1625 you will not necessarily get more bass output.

In fact higher end splits are not designed at all for bass, the are designed for midbass and high end response. Trying to drive bass through them to say compare to a sub will most likely result in an early death for the speaker. To much bass you kill the mid, to much power you kill the tweeter.

So? whats good and whats out there? Well heaps. It is just a matter of surviving the commission hungry salesperson who will sell you any old crap so he/she gets a commission.

Sure as mentioned dont go to strathfield, but beleive it or not they sell some resonable gear at ok prices. It is just they little knowledge how to sell anything they personally dont get a commision on. JB, WOW are the same, with Autobarn not far behind.

So what do you do. Easy, take a cd you own to a store, listen to the equipment yourself and decide what you like. Now hears the big tip. When you listen to the equipment, set the bass/treble etc of the source unit to zero, flat, nothing, well you get the idea. That way one deck wont make a set of speakers sound better or worse ( an old sales trick).

If it was my car, I would use the Jap/ American recipe. Hasnt failed me yet in 12 years.

The JAP part. A japenese brand headunit. Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony, etc. Generally well made head units with good features and usability. However the speakers from these company's usually suck and are lower powered than other brands on the market.

The American part. Soundstream, Rockford, Fusion ( yer, i know its from NZ). Basically these company's only make speakers, woofers and amplifiers. They put more emphasis on quality and acheiving a higher output than other ( jap) brands on the market.

So, my advice, stick with the Pioneer headunit, but go for something like Fusion or the like for the rest of the system. Basically, have the gizzmo in the dash control the raw power of the other components. We have done that for the last many years and never had anyone disapointed.

Then the way to set it up would be

deck - 2chan or mono block amp (brigded and lowpassed) - subwoofer

- 4 chan amp (2 chan high passed) - front splits

(2 chan high passed) - rear two ways

Now the rear speakers Cut the tweeter out. Yep the wires that run from the speaker cone to the tweeter cut them out. Effectively this will give you a mid bass only speaker and the effect will improove you front end imaging by having no higher frequencies from the rear of the car. Sort of like a cheap band pass crossover.

BTW - A word on JAYCAR.

Sure Jaycar provide ok bang for buck, but they use a lot of really cheap chinese manufacturers like HONG SOUND to product what is essentially really CRAP product.

[Xizor]

ok frx you have pretty much confused the crap out of me.

I am happy with getting a JVC or Pioneer deck. I am also happy with the Pioneer 106R's as my front splits. If anyone can name a better speaker, for my purposes, for under $250 im listening.

Is it adventageous to replace the current splits in the rear with 2 small subs? The hacking of splits you mention frx seems like it will kill the speakers life.

Basically, i am ok with the idea of having to get an amp. Only wanna spend a few hundred MAX, but if i gotta i gotta. I would prefer not to have to get a sub in the boot. I dont really listen to rnb or hip hop, mostly rock, alternative, and trance. So i do need some bass, but not crazy shit.

The guy in the store we had the Pioneer TSD 106R's running off a pioneer deck and they sounded ok to me, i do want more bass than they gave though and he said they would sound deeper and more powerfull going off an amp.

[siddr20]

amp on a budget- try jaycar amp. 2 channel amp to drive your front spilts.

Now im not to sure if you want some bass with your spilts or not..

Anyways if you do and if those pionner spilts put out some decent bass, im 100% sure that it wont sound good after 50% of volume.

You will deff need to sound deadend those doors.

I currently have hsk 165 spilts in the front n hcx coxials in the rear. These speakers put out a fair bit of bass-trust me.

BUT my doors arent sound-deanded so it sounds crap after 50-60% of volume turned up.

Anyways now back on topic.

Try jaycar amps if you on a budget. Price is like around 150-300 mark i think?? cant remember now.

Try http://www.fhrxstudios.com/ if you want to purchase some second hand gear. Or give him a call and see what he thinks.

Cheers.

EDIT: why not try jaycar spilts. Go into jaycar n have a listen.. They go pretty hard!! I just didnt like the tweeters!! BUt for value for money they deff are worth it!!

Edited July 23, 2006 by siddr20

[Xizor]

why the hell do you have it up that loud? you trying to sound fill a car park? or is 50% just not loud enough for incar use?

f**k why does everything have to be so bloody complicated.

Where are fhrx located?

[Xizor]

Ok lets try and work this out.

Front splits - $200-$300

Rear speakers - $250 or less

Deck - $500-800.

Amp? Less than $500 (being very generous with that figure...)

Sub? Depends if needed. I listen to mostly rock and trance. So i guess i do need some bass. More so sharp deep bass, not ghey ass rnb bass. Do i really need a sub to achieve this?

Edited July 23, 2006 by Xizor

[siddr20]

my alpine 9835 (top 05 model) goes up to 30 in volume.

15 is pretty loud itself, but then you start to hear doors rattling.

Every headunit will be different.

Heres what i got.

Alpine 9835-500 second hand.

front spilts- Hertz HSk165s 320 i think.

Rear- Hertz HCX coxails 165s-- $200

Yet to come. amp and sub.

Amp- well i might go with a three channel amp (audison sr3) To drive my front spilts as well as a sub.

Sub- well i was thinking boston or hertz. See how money goes next month.

ANyways i reckon dont waste so much money on your head unit. I got mine for 500 second hand and its awesome!! got everything you will ever need.

Rear speakers-- hmm 200 max i reckon. Who ever sits in the back anyways??

Sound deadend those doors-- 300 installed i think. or 100 bucks for pack and do it youself.

FHRX are located in sydney. If you do contact him, mention sidd with the silver 33 sent ya.

Well theres no need to buy a sub which produces low frequency bass. So get a quailty sub for your genre. ASk FHRX on which sub is best suited to your music.

[siddr20]

Edit: Also check out the FAQ section on that website.

It will help you with everything trust me.

[Xizor]

Main reason for expense of headunit is i like the pretty looking ones. I want something i really like the look of. I dont really give a shit about advanced equalising capabilities and shit. I might contact FHRX.

The Hertz better than the pioneer T160R's?

[R33-Lovr]

u want real speakers you have to go for the

MTX TX6001 its a 2 way comes with splits, the price is 330 from strathfield, i got them for 250

they are nice and will fit perfect on the door, if you decide to get them let me know i'll show you where to put your cross overs i found a good place for em.

[Xizor]

never even heard of MTX.

Where did u stick'em?

[R33-Lovr]

you prob havent heard of them cause they are very expensive (i dont mean this in a bad way) and most stores dont hold them, anyway

for the cross overs on the right door i put them on the left of the speaker i put double layer of double side sticky tape and scrwed them in, the tape is to prevent ratle, oin the left door i put them on the right hand side of the speaker on the stock spacers same double side sticky tape but i didnt screw these in, for the tweeters i put them ahh jst look at the pic

[RANDY]

That's an interesting placement and method of mounting tweeters!

Most good splits come with a tweeter that has the option of flush or surface mounting. If you get the surface mounting bracket, most of the time it will have a 30 or 45 degree bevel on the bottom, so you can mount it on your mirror-sails and point them towards you.

As far as the highpass goes with splits, is there any point? Splits should have their own crossover? My Clarions did, and the 6.5 driver doesn't get the super-low bass frequencies. It does get a nice punchy kick though.

I recently put my sub in... I wasn't planning to on this car, but after 9 months of no sub, I couldn't beleive how good everything sounded with it in. Staging is great! Sub is nice and omnidirectional, mids are holding up well...

On the upshot, the JayCar 100wrms full range amp fits next to the battery in the boot, and so should the 2-channel. If people are recommending that you run the fronts off an amp, then get the 100wrms full-range JayCar amp and run them off the front outputs, and use your sub in bridge mode off the rear outputs. Works for me!

[siddr20]

No idea if the hertz are better than those speakers you listed because i have never heard them personally..

Check out both specs and see for yourself.

Yes contact fhrx(marty is his name) and im sure he can suggest you audio gears to your music tastes.

If you in sydney go visit him i guess.

Also chris rogers on this site can help you out if you in brisbane.

Randy- i got my tweeters up there also. On the triangle thing. I tested mine below near kick panel, and i didnt like it as much. Personal taste i reckon!!

Hmm think its time i sound-deadend my doors.

[RANDY]

Jah! Triangle thing is a mad place for them. Wires are hidden, and it's easy to access if you have to, hey?

[Fhrx]

Guys' we constantly get asked "Where should I place my tweeters for best performance?" This is our standard reply:

Okay, lets all think about staging for a second. You don't go to a concert and sit with your back towards the band right? And admit it - we'd all like to be right in front and center of the band on stage true? And you'd also like to be at the right height to - like you were on the actual stage right in front of them listening. This is the imaginary image we try and capture inside cars today when we position tweeters in vehicles. Getting this is not just a simple matter of slapping them in just anywhere either.

The problem with mounting tweeters up high (e.g. on the sail area on the door) is this:

Think about the position of your ears in relation to the tweeters. One speaker is belting the high pitch tunes out about two feet from your right ear where as the left tweeter is triple that distance away. The stage has no choice but to be right out the right window. Sheer laws of physics govern this fact. Now if you place the tweeters down in the kick panels then the right speaker distance is about three feet and the left speaker is about three and a half. The problem is not eradicated but it becomes a lot less noticeable as the distance separation is reduced.

Now obviously the tweeters cannot be placed anywhere where they fire straight into ones feet so you have to be very careful about their placement on both sides and the more often than not this results in them being mounted very high in the kick panel, quite often out of sight like mine are because they're so far up under the dash.

The next question people ask is this; isn't the stage going to be low?

The answer is not so much to do with the physical tweeter location but the power level they receive. If you have sufficient power going to each tweeter from a high quality amplifier then your tweeters will not only fill out the stage 'height' nicely but the entire front cabin of the car. That said though, serious competitors utilise ambient tweeters up high (these are much quieter than the primary tweeters however) to lift the stage a little to head height from chest height that usually exists.

And someone is bound to mention time alignment - they always do.

The biggest problem with time alignment is this; the better you make your side sound (and you can get it absolutely perfect), the more your passenger suffers. Think about it - it time delays the right side speaker so both signal paths reach your ears at the same time. The problem is that the passenger has the reverse problem to you so as you side gets closer to being the same side to side, theirs get worse and worse.

So how does one get the stage right in real world terms?

At the end of the day you just have to play around a bit (and sometimes it can take up to four hours or so) to get the tweeter placement just right to achieve a nice stage 'width' , 'height' and 'depth'. Get yourself a nice big blob of blue-tac. Stick the tweeter onto a panel somewhere and grab a song with powerful female vocals (a strong female voice is generally considered best for stage testing). Close your eyes and imagine you're at the concert. Now listen to where she is coming from. Is she singing right in front of you? Is she off to the left a tad or right? Simple move the tweeter a few inches in a direction and have another listen. How is the image? Can you hear where all the band members are exactly? How is the depth? Does the drummer sound like he is behind the other musicians? Keep doing this until you get the image dead center or just off to the left a little bit but remember to take a rest every fifteen minutes to let your ears normalize. If you attempt staging for hours your ears tend to 'hallucinate' and give false readings.

[Alien]

Guys' we constantly get asked "Where should I place my tweeters for best performance?" This is our standard reply:............

hey Marty, I absolutely adore the new Boss Audio amp range... they absolutely put Audison to shame

[R33-Lovr]

Fhrx

have you heard of MTX, if so what you think of them

[wolverine]

Guys' we constantly get asked "Where should I place my tweeters for best performance?" This is our standard reply:

Okay, lets all think about staging for a second. You don't go to a concert and sit with your back towards the band right? And admit it - we'd all like to be right in front and center of the band on stage true? And you'd also like to be at the right height to - like you were on the actual stage right in front of them listening. This is the imaginary image we try and capture inside cars today when we position tweeters in vehicles. Getting this is not just a simple matter of slapping them in just anywhere either.

The problem with mounting tweeters up high (e.g. on the sail area on the door) is this:

Think about the position of your ears in relation to the tweeters. One speaker is belting the high pitch tunes out about two feet from your right ear where as the left tweeter is triple that distance away. The stage has no choice but to be right out the right window. Sheer laws of physics govern this fact. Now if you place the tweeters down in the kick panels then the right speaker distance is about three feet and the left speaker is about three and a half. The problem is not eradicated but it becomes a lot less noticeable as the distance separation is reduced.

Now obviously the tweeters cannot be placed anywhere where they fire straight into ones feet so you have to be very careful about their placement on both sides and the more often than not this results in them being mounted very high in the kick panel, quite often out of sight like mine are because they're so far up under the dash.

The next question people ask is this; isn't the stage going to be low?

The answer is not so much to do with the physical tweeter location but the power level they receive. If you have sufficient power going to each tweeter from a high quality amplifier then your tweeters will not only fill out the stage 'height' nicely but the entire front cabin of the car. That said though, serious competitors utilise ambient tweeters up high (these are much quieter than the primary tweeters however) to lift the stage a little to head height from chest height that usually exists.

And someone is bound to mention time alignment - they always do.

The biggest problem with time alignment is this; the better you make your side sound (and you can get it absolutely perfect), the more your passenger suffers. Think about it - it time delays the right side speaker so both signal paths reach your ears at the same time. The problem is that the passenger has the reverse problem to you so as you side gets closer to being the same side to side, theirs get worse and worse.

So how does one get the stage right in real world terms?

At the end of the day you just have to play around a bit (and sometimes it can take up to four hours or so) to get the tweeter placement just right to achieve a nice stage 'width' , 'height' and 'depth'. Get yourself a nice big blob of blue-tac. Stick the tweeter onto a panel somewhere and grab a song with powerful female vocals (a strong female voice is generally considered best for stage testing). Close your eyes and imagine you're at the concert. Now listen to where she is coming from. Is she singing right in front of you? Is she off to the left a tad or right? Simple move the tweeter a few inches in a direction and have another listen. How is the image? Can you hear where all the band members are exactly? How is the depth? Does the drummer sound like he is behind the other musicians? Keep doing this until you get the image dead center or just off to the left a little bit but remember to take a rest every fifteen minutes to let your ears normalize. If you attempt staging for hours your ears tend to 'hallucinate' and give false readings.

looks kinda sorta like this.....