Turbo Replacement/upgrade - Your Thoughts?

[beastien]

LOL, thought you might like that

[EGA41T]

guys, stop with the freaking appreciation!

let us know with Bills ATS turbo. Always wanting to learn more!

lol, but why? your such a great guy, and an asset to the forums

[AlexCim]

stagea love

*group hug*

[skidkid]

Who has got an R33 based hiflow on their NEO? Thoughts and feellings? What breed of hiflow?

[pixel8r]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread since my car is in at ATS with the turbo upgrade being done as we speak.

I'll post the results when I get the car back (hopefully tonight).

Still quite nervous about having a GT30 hiflow sitting in an otherwise stock stagea. Like this will give a fair increase in air I imagine, requiring more fuel. My biggest worry is that the standard ecu etc. wont be able to supply enough fuel and I risk damaging my engine or something equally as bad.

Its running the stock boost solenoid (hi boost mode at the moment but I can put that back to standard - either way it will still use high boost mode in high revs but I'd be able to keep the revs down until I get a fuel pressure regulator or something).

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it will be fine as is or whether I should be looking into a piggyback or FPR or boost controller or something as protection??

I'm not after power or anything for now, I just want to know what I NEED to avoid damage. Bill at ATS seemed to think there would be no problem how it is.

I guess an easier way to say it is that all I am changing is the turbo (stock -> hiflow GT30) - so with the extra airflow will the ecu/fuel etc. keep up? or if not what more do I need to do?

[STAGE-A]

FMIC, need to cool that extra heat ... im no whizz but i know you need to avoid detonation

[Tangles]

My tip; spend a few hundred on a R34 GTT side mount intercooler, a hundred and a half on a Nismo FPR, a couple hundred on a larger Bosch 040 fuel pump, and eventually buy and tune a SAFC too.

Oh, and a full exhaust system to make it all happy !

running stock boost with the larger turbo should be ok - but a GT30 is a big turbo, of sorts. simply have a quick half hour dyno session at Graham Wests down the road on the 4wd dyno and have the injector duty checked out and the AFR's checked............ that'll tell you a bit more about whats going on.

best of luck, and let us know your thoughts on the GT30.

Brendan

[pixel8r]

Thanks, its actually an S2 stagea so already has the R34 GTT intercooler. I dont even plan to go above 10psi so this cooler should be fine for what I need.

Is the bosch fuel pump needed? I doubt my power figures are going to be very excessive and really the only other thing I plan to do to the car is a catback exhaust at some stage (mainly for a better sound, although still fairly quiet).

I rang GWW a few days ago about possibly fitting an SAFC and decided it was way too expensive. its only ~$400 for the unit but the installation and tuning cost was even more than that so I'd be looking at nearly $1k installed and tuned. And GWW told me that with a fairly stock RB25 neo it wouldn't make a huge difference. They actually recommended the E-manage (blue). Costs around $600 apparently and a little more to install and tune but is a better unit and has more features.

oh and also GWW's 4wd dyno is coming out the ground tomorrow for autosalon this weekend

Either way I dont have that sort of money to spend on piggybacks. It would take well over a year to pay it off in fuel savings.

The real issue for me right now will be boost and/or fuel pressure. The Nismo FPR sounds like the solution if there is any trouble, and doesn't sound too expensive so thats good. Does that need any tuning or anything or is it just a simple replacement??

If its good how it is then I'll be very happy to leave it. I'd like to get a piggyback ecu at some stage but I would need to save up for that.

Edited August 8, 2006 by pixel8r

[Sydneykid]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread since my car is in at ATS with the turbo upgrade being done as we speak.

I'll post the results when I get the car back (hopefully tonight).

Still quite nervous about having a GT30 hiflow sitting in an otherwise stock stagea. Like this will give a fair increase in air I imagine, requiring more fuel. My biggest worry is that the standard ecu etc. wont be able to supply enough fuel and I risk damaging my engine or something equally as bad.

Its running the stock boost solenoid (hi boost mode at the moment but I can put that back to standard - either way it will still use high boost mode in high revs but I'd be able to keep the revs down until I get a fuel pressure regulator or something).

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it will be fine as is or whether I should be looking into a piggyback or FPR or boost controller or something as protection??

I'm not after power or anything for now, I just want to know what I NEED to avoid damage. Bill at ATS seemed to think there would be no problem how it is.

I guess an easier way to say it is that all I am changing is the turbo (stock -> hiflow GT30) - so with the extra airflow will the ecu/fuel etc. keep up? or if not what more do I need to do?

I think the other guys are being a bit gentle, I think it’s time for reality check here.

Surely you are not seriously considering using a GT30 with the standard ECU?

Honestly you will hit the standard ECU R&R mapping before the GT30 is halfway to its efficiency. You are going to get so frustrated driving it. You will have a 300 rwkw turbo with a 130 rwkw ECU, a 160 rwkw intercooler, a 165 rwkw fuel pump and 200 rwkw injectors. It’s a total mismatch in power output potential.

Personally I think you are doing it completely the wrong way around, the most efficient (least frustrating) order is;

1. On a turbocharged engine the very first thing you should do is a turbo back exhaust with split dump and high flow cat.

2. The second thing is something to control the boost (EBC, bleed valve whatever)

3. The third thing on an S1 is an intercooler upgrade, the standard side mount intercooler is marginal at even the mild power upgrade you get from the exhaust (ie; 160 rwkw). The S2 intercooler is somewhat larger and probably OK to 200 rwkw.

4. Next, it’s time to get some control over the tuning. The standard ECU R&R mapping will make it slow, surge prone, uneconomical on fuel and just plain frustrating tot drive. You will fowl plugs, guzzle gas and it will slower than it was standard. So it’s SAFC (or equivalent) time if it’s an auto and a Power FC if it’s a manual.

5. Once you have the above 4 items, then and ONLY THEN is it turbo upgrade time. Since you have chosen a turbo that exceeds the standard fuel pump and injector flow, you will need to move on to the following.

6. You will need to choose a fuel pump and injector size that matches your power target. With the GT30 you are well past a fuel pressure upgrade (via a adjustable FPR) and the standard injectors. So don’t bother with the FPR, just go straight to the right sized injectors, something around 500 cc’s if you want to use the GT30 to its potential.

7. If it’s an auto you are into severe transmission upgrades, standard it won’t last a week. If it’s a manual then you have need of a decent clutch upgrade immediately.

Hopefully the above has either stopped you from suffering the inevitable frustration. Or at the very least forewarned you of what to expect.

cheers

[STAGE-A]

sounds to me your best option is to swap your new turbo with my old stocky ... hence saving you $$$ on silly unneccesary mods .... heck im in a good mood i'll even pay for postage

[pixel8r]

I think the other guys are being a bit gentle, I think it’s time for reality check here.

Surely you are not seriously considering using a GT30 with the standard ECU?

Honestly you will hit the standard ECU R&R mapping before the GT30 is halfway to its efficiency. You are going to get so frustrated driving it. You will have a 300 rwkw turbo with a 130 rwkw ECU, a 160 rwkw intercooler, a 165 rwkw fuel pump and 200 rwkw injectors. It’s a total mismatch in power output potential.

Personally I think you are doing it completely the wrong way around, the most efficient (least frustrating) order is;

1. On a turbocharged engine the very first thing you should do is a turbo back exhaust with split dump and high flow cat.

2. The second thing is something to control the boost (EBC, bleed valve whatever)

3. The third thing on an S1 is an intercooler upgrade, the standard side mount intercooler is marginal at even the mild power upgrade you get from the exhaust (ie; 160 rwkw). The S2 intercooler is somewhat larger and probably OK to 200 rwkw.

4. Next, it’s time to get some control over the tuning. The standard ECU R&R mapping will make it slow, surge prone, uneconomical on fuel and just plain frustrating tot drive. You will fowl plugs, guzzle gas and it will slower than it was standard. So it’s SAFC (or equivalent) time if it’s an auto and a Power FC if it’s a manual.

5. Once you have the above 4 items, then and ONLY THEN is it turbo upgrade time. Since you have chosen a turbo that exceeds the standard fuel pump and injector flow, you will need to move on to the following.

6. You will need to choose a fuel pump and injector size that matches your power target. With the GT30 you are well past a fuel pressure upgrade (via a adjustable FPR) and the standard injectors. So don’t bother with the FPR, just go straight to the right sized injectors, something around 500 cc’s if you want to use the GT30 to its potential.

7. If it’s an auto you are into severe transmission upgrades, standard it won’t last a week. If it’s a manual then you have need of a decent clutch upgrade immediately.

Hopefully the above has either stopped you from suffering the inevitable frustration. Or at the very least forewarned you of what to expect.

cheers

Thanks, and I realise this is all correct IF I am upgrading my turbo with some high power figure in mind...but I'm not.

My stock turbo was almost dead (see original posts) so my options were:

- replace with 2nd hand stock turbo - no warranty, almost impossible to find one, possibly will fail again at some point??

- replace with GCG hiflow - very good option but meant car would be off the road for an entire week, I opted to pay more and go for option 3, which is...

- replace with GT30 hiflow - was told better option than GCG and would be done in 2 days with standard R34 turbo housing.

I didn't replace the turbo to get more power - that is just a bonus.

What I want initially is a more reliable turbo, with warranty and similar response to stock.

I believe I have achieved that as the exhaust will limit the boost enough so that fuel pressure etc. will not be an issue (until I upgrade the exhaust - and THEN i will run into problems with the above.).

I do really appreciate the info though, and it should prove to be very handy to myself for future reference and anyone else planning to do similar upgrades.

So really the face that I haven't upgraded the exhaust cancels out most of the requirements you specified.

I know I'm not getting the most out of the turbo, but right now its about getting it running reliably, and I also have loads of potential for future mods, and will definitely use your post as a reference when planning these.

So where does the car stand now? well its simple, because the exhaust is so restrictive, the boost level should remain much the same, and the increased airflow should only be up to 25-30% more than with the stock turbo, which would be the equivalent to raising the boost on the stock turbo to say ~10psi - which we know is fine.

Its a delicate situation because as soon as the exhaust is upgraded, all of SK's post comes into play - and I really do need to consider FPR, boost controller, and piggybacks before even thinking of upgrading the exhaust.

Thanks SK, I agree with you entirely - and hopefully you will appreciate where i'm coming from

[pixel8r]

sounds to me your best option is to swap your new turbo with my old stocky ... hence saving you $$$ on silly unneccesary mods .... heck im in a good mood i'll even pay for postage

I know. but remember this is a S2 stagea so I'd want the R34 turbo (not sure what yours is) - otherwise it would be a turbo downgrade...

Anyways, the job is done. I dont call a replacement turbo that is better than the stock one a silly unnecessary mod. I didn't want a 2nd hand turbo although I did initially try to get one but couldn't find one anywhere in SA.

Sure I'm nowhere near the potential of the turbo, but my turbo is fixed, and its better than before and I have a brand new turbo and warranty. How is that a bad thing??

When something breaks, you either replace it with a 2nd hand stock one (can be risky, been there before and got burnt) or spend more money and improve the car.

Thats what I chose to do here.

If your turbo died or was close to it, I'm sure any one of you would've looked at a hiflow option as well. Its the logical thing to do. I spoke to Bill at ATS a LOT about whether it is safe to do so and what are the pros and cons and he advised me that I wont be getting the best from the turbo but that in any case it will still be a good option as a replacement turbo (still MUCH better than stock) - with loads of future potential if I want it.

Edited August 8, 2006 by pixel8r

[STAGE-A]

I know. but remember this is a S2 stagea so I'd want the R34 turbo (not sure what yours is) - otherwise it would be a turbo downgrade...

Anyways, the job is done. I dont call a replacement turbo that is better than the stock one a silly unnecessary mod. I didn't want a 2nd hand turbo although I did initially try to get one but couldn't find one anywhere in SA.

Sure I'm nowhere near the potential of the turbo, but my turbo is fixed, and its better than before and I have a brand new turbo and warranty. How is that a bad thing??

When something breaks, you either replace it with a 2nd hand stock one (can be risky, been there before and got burnt) or spend more money and improve the car.

Thats what I chose to do here.

If your turbo died or was close to it, I'm sure any one of you would've looked at a hiflow option as well. Its the logical thing to do. I spoke to Bill at ATS a LOT about whether it is safe to do so and what are the pros and cons and he advised me that I wont be getting the best from the turbo but that in any case it will still be a good option as a replacement turbo (still MUCH better than stock) - with loads of future potential if I want it.

Hi mate, i was just havin a joke with ya sorry if it didnt come across that way .... read my post im getting my new turbo fitted tomorrow too so similar boat .... anyways good luck with it all and look forward to seeing some dyno sheets some time

Lee

[Tangles]

Id still suggest a little trip down marion rd (like 4kms max) past daws rd to Graham west workshops for a half hour dyno session, to give you an idea on the injector duty + AFR's.

No harm in knowing that the engine will/willnot be ok.

[Sydneykid]

Thanks, and I realise this is all correct IF I am upgrading my turbo with some high power figure in mind...but I'm not.

My stock turbo was almost dead (see original posts) so my options were:

- replace with 2nd hand stock turbo - no warranty, almost impossible to find one, possibly will fail again at some point??

- replace with GCG hiflow - very good option but meant car would be off the road for an entire week, I opted to pay more and go for option 3, which is...

- replace with GT30 hiflow - was told better option than GCG and would be done in 2 days with standard R34 turbo housing.

I didn't replace the turbo to get more power - that is just a bonus.

What I want initially is a more reliable turbo, with warranty and similar response to stock.

I believe I have achieved that as the exhaust will limit the boost enough so that fuel pressure etc. will not be an issue (until I upgrade the exhaust - and THEN i will run into problems with the above.).

I do really appreciate the info though, and it should prove to be very handy to myself for future reference and anyone else planning to do similar upgrades.

So really the face that I haven't upgraded the exhaust cancels out most of the requirements you specified.

I know I'm not getting the most out of the turbo, but right now its about getting it running reliably, and I also have loads of potential for future mods, and will definitely use your post as a reference when planning these.

So where does the car stand now? well its simple, because the exhaust is so restrictive, the boost level should remain much the same, and the increased airflow should only be up to 25-30% more than with the stock turbo, which would be the equivalent to raising the boost on the stock turbo to say ~10psi - which we know is fine.

Its a delicate situation because as soon as the exhaust is upgraded, all of SK's post comes into play - and I really do need to consider FPR, boost controller, and piggybacks before even thinking of upgrading the exhaust.

Thanks SK, I agree with you entirely - and hopefully you will appreciate where i'm coming from

The difference between the R34GTT Neo and Stagea S1 turbo and the R33GTST and Stagea S1 turbo is GROSSLY overrated. I have had both (GCG ball bearing high flow) on an R33GTST and I can assure you the difference is not worth the aggravation it causes. The ABSOLUTE best I could get (with lots of tuning time) out of the R34GTT turbine cover was 10 rwkw more than the R33GTST turbine cover (265 rwkw versus 275 rwkw). Keeping in mind that EVERYTHING else in the turbo is EXACTLY the same. For the 10 rwkw extra I sacrificed 250 rpm of boost build ie; the larger turbine cover meant the boost was a little slower to build. I am still not convinced it was worth it.

There is a Group Buy on at the moment for R33GTST and Stagea S1 GCG ball Bearing high flows for $1,750 delivered, that includes all the gaskets and seals necessary to fit it straight on, NOTHING more to buy. Plus it is an exchange service. You pay $2,250 and get the GCG Ball Bearing High Flow delivered to you. Then in your own time you take your turbo off and send it back. Once it is confirmed as being suitable for high flowing by GCG you get your $500 back (ie; you have paid net $1,750). This Group Buy is organised through Jamex, the same people who do the Whiteline and Bilstein suspension Group Buy. So service is guaranteed, judging by to 70 or satisfied SAU customers.

Now back to your problem…………..

Sorry but you won’t get anywhere near 10 psi with a GT30 before R&R mapping sets in. This is because the R&R mapping is triggered by excessive airflow, which the GT30 will do at 5 psi compared to the standard turbo’s 8 psi.

Yep, that’s right, as soon as I went past 8 psi I encountered R&R mapping on the Stagea S1 and the R34GTT. I had to tune the DFA to avoid the dreaded mid range flatness and grossly excessive fuel consumption. The A/F ratios dropped into the 9’s at 3,250 rpm to 5,000 rpm, which is the most common range used for brisk driving.

So whether you upgrade the exhaust or not your are still looking at annoying R&R mapping, very slow boost build, lots of lag and a Stagea that is almost guaranteed to be slower than a standard one as a result.

But, as I always say, every car is different, yours might just be the one.

cheers

[wolverine]

SK, brett at GCG insisted an R33 turbo would be unsuitable on a neo due to the smaller turbine housing.

next time you speak to him can you ask him why?? (and translate)

didn't make sense to me at the time but he talked me out of using the one i had possession of originally, prior to hi-flowing the one on the car.

[pixel8r]

The difference between the R34GTT Neo and Stagea S1 turbo and the R33GTST and Stagea S1 turbo is GROSSLY overrated. I have had both (GCG ball bearing high flow) on an R33GTST and I can assure you the difference is not worth the aggravation it causes. The ABSOLUTE best I could get (with lots of tuning time) out of the R34GTT turbine cover was 10 rwkw more than the R33GTST turbine cover (265 rwkw versus 275 rwkw). Keeping in mind that EVERYTHING else in the turbo is EXACTLY the same. For the 10 rwkw extra I sacrificed 250 rpm of boost build ie; the larger turbine cover meant the boost was a little slower to build. I am still not convinced it was worth it.

There is a Group Buy on at the moment for R33GTST and Stagea S1 GCG ball Bearing high flows for $1,750 delivered, that includes all the gaskets and seals necessary to fit it straight on, NOTHING more to buy. Plus it is an exchange service. You pay $2,250 and get the GCG Ball Bearing High Flow delivered to you. Then in your own time you take your turbo off and send it back. Once it is confirmed as being suitable for high flowing by GCG you get your $500 back (ie; you have paid net $1,750). This Group Buy is organised through Jamex, the same people who do the Whiteline and Bilstein suspension Group Buy. So service is guaranteed, judging by to 70 or satisfied SAU customers.

Now back to your problem…………..

Sorry but you won’t get anywhere near 10 psi with a GT30 before R&R mapping sets in. This is because the R&R mapping is triggered by excessive airflow, which the GT30 will do at 5 psi compared to the standard turbo’s 8 psi.

Yep, that’s right, as soon as I went past 8 psi I encountered R&R mapping on the Stagea S1 and the R34GTT. I had to tune the DFA to avoid the dreaded mid range flatness and grossly excessive fuel consumption. The A/F ratios dropped into the 9’s at 3,250 rpm to 5,000 rpm, which is the most common range used for brisk driving.

So whether you upgrade the exhaust or not your are still looking at annoying R&R mapping, very slow boost build, lots of lag and a Stagea that is almost guaranteed to be slower than a standard one as a result.

But, as I always say, every car is different, yours might just be the one.

cheers

That sounds fairly logical. I'll get it checked on a dyno as soon as I'm able to.

So whats actually needed to combat this, just the DFA or SAFC? or a FPR as well?

Not sure if it describes how the car drives though. How will I know if its using this R&R mapping??

[pixel8r]

Ok, I have the car back again, all looks good. First thing I noticed is the turbo noise gone (obviously)....yay!

Second thing I noticed is lag. SK is possibly correct about R&R mapping but I'll need to look into it further.

Its running 6.5psi with the new turbo, showing that the tiny stock exhaust is indeed quite restricting.

I'd estimate this to be equivalent to say 9-10psi with the original turbo so some tuning would obviously be very helpful (but expensive ).

Runs very well, and the good news is that Bill had a good look up close at the engine with everything off etc. and confirmed that my low km's do appear to be genuine. The immaculate interior would certainly back this up so I'm happy with that. Obviously its been sitting around for a long time in Japan and this has affected a lot of things, including the turbo.

Money's gonna be tight now but I'll get it onto a dyno as soon as possible. Would like to know what the A/F ratios are like now.

But all in all, the car now drives very quiet and very smooth. Power delivery is very smooth. Haven't managed to give it a good run yet since I've only driven it home and that was in peak hour traffic. Need to at least take it up to 80km/h to get a good feel for the difference.

[pixel8r]

Just a quick (and hopefully final) update on the GT30 turbo.

Car runs great, no problems at all, no ignition cut/fuel cut/misfiring or anything so I'm very happy about that.

Its a little laggier than stock (as expected) but once the revs are up around 2500+rpm you can feel it pulling and it just keeps going and going. The stock turbo tended to run out of puff at 3000rpm.

The car is quicker but still not super quick because as mentioned previously its being choked by the standard exhaust.

But thats how it will stay for a while now because now I have a large debt to pay off (on top of the car loan).

So finally the turbo is fixed and the car runs great, and has lots of potential lying there for some time in the distant future when my debts are fully paid off.

[AlexCim]

"The stock turbo tended to run out of puff at 3000rpm."

I dont think thats fair. My stocker was still pulling at around 5000rpm. However my GCG was still pulling at 7000rpm