Pineapples And Subframe Bushes

[R33S2]

I say anyone will notice a difference after pineapples are fitted, The car is designed to float on the subframe ie it moves around on it, and the pineapples remove this movement.

[djr81]

Terry,

The car is NOT designed to move around on the subframe. The bushes are installed to isolate the chassis (& therefore you) from excess road noise. As the car ages the bushes deteriorate & eventually fail. Most of the difference is that between the pineapples & stuffed bushes, not the difference between pineapples & that way Nissan intended it to be.

[Bl4cK32]

adding pinapples to help traction (induce squat) is a good thing to do while the subframe is out.

All pinapples do is tilt the subframe forward, not stop any movement from the subframe, which is removed with the replacement of the subframe bushes.

[morlock]

adding pinapples to help traction (induce squat) is a good thing to do while the subframe is out.

All pinapples do is tilt the subframe forward, not stop any movement from the subframe, which is removed with the replacement of the subframe bushes.

The angle of the subframe changes based on the configuration of the pineapples. And i was under the impression that they also locked the subframe into position against the chassis and thus reduce the amount of movement. Urethane gives little movement whilst alloy ones can eliminate it completely.

This increases the amount of vibration through the rear subframe but stops movement in the subframe in hard cornering.

Also the bushings in the skylines in most areas have little rubber and little movement and therefore don't deteriorate as much as you might think. Be sure that your bushes really do need replacing before forking out the dollars.

[hrd-hr30]

nope. the alloy ones are prcisely machined to fit into the bush's steel sleeve, crush the bush when tightened, and positively locate the subfram to the mounting pins, as you can see from the pic.

I just fitted a set of these alloy blocks after initially buying a set of poly pineapples from Fulcrum (who tell me they also supply Whiteline). There is nothing in the design of the poly pineapples to locate the subframe, they simply alter the angle of it. I took them back.

so if your bushes are gone and leaking the silicone goo as one of mine was, the poly pineapples are no good for you. You either need to bit the bullet and pay someone to replace the bushes or fit the alloy gear. there is a little more noise transmitted into the cabin, but its not too bad. My car is only used for fun anyway - the odd weekend drive and track days, so I couldn't care less. Made a very noticeable difference to the handling though!

the set of 8 alloy ones cost me $140 normal retail, which is much better value than $110 special group buy price on the 4 poly blocks. Hell I can buy a set of 10 poly body lift blocks with steel crush tube inserts for my Patrol for $100, again at normal retail price... the whiteline pineapples are a touch

[Bl4cK32]

who wants a subframe locked to the car though. Unless its a track car, i dont want all the NVH in my arse and ears that the solid alloy type brings with it.

i think everyone agrees -

poly blocks - angle the subframe for traction (street or track)

alloy mounts - crush down the std stuffed bushes (best for track)

noltec subframe mounts - good all rounder (street, or track)

Also the bushings in the skylines in most areas have little rubber and little movement and therefore don't deteriorate as much as you might think. Be sure that your bushes really do need replacing before forking out the dollars.

I am replacing rubbers in my car for a performance issue, noit because most are stuffed (guaranteed all are)

Edited August 8, 2006 by Bl4cK32

[BHDave]

who wants a subframe locked to the car though. Unless its a track car, i dont want all the NVH in my arse and ears that the solid alloy type brings with it.

i think everyone agrees -

poly blocks - angle the subframe for traction (street or track)

alloy mounts - crush down the std stuffed bushes (best for track)

noltec subframe mounts - good all rounder (street, or track)

I am replacing rubbers in my car for a performance issue, noit because most are stuffed (guaranteed all are)

I disagree.

Don't knock the alloy subframe lock until you try it. The increase in NVH is minimal. The improved handling and tighter rear end are worth every bit. I installed mine about 2 years ago when my car was still a daily driver and never regretted it or considered removing them, unlike my 044 or 3.5 inch exhaust.

[Bl4cK32]

im not arguing, people have the right to their own opinion.

As im slowing down with age, a smoother ride is high on my list, but still want some sort of handling better than std.

Alloys dont fit my requirements, hence i wont fit them

[hrd-hr30]

I disagree.

Don't knock the alloy subframe lock until you try it. The increase in NVH is minimal. The improved handling and tighter rear end are worth every bit. I installed mine about 2 years ago when my car was still a daily driver and never regretted it or considered removing them, unlike my 044 or 3.5 inch exhaust.

I'll second that. There is only a VERY slight increase in noise transmitted to the cabin. On the other hand, they also removed some noises caused by the stuffed bushes too! And the improvements in handling are very noticeable. More stable and consistent especially on bumpy corners. Bring on the QLD Challenge Rally!

The poly pineapples do not locate the subframe to the car. They are overpriced. They're only possible function is for tuning for more or less squat, but more squat (traction setup) means more power-on understeer too, as well as more traction - arguably OK for a GTST, but not something I want in my GTR. Neutral setup (as per the factory mounting) on the subframe definitely seems the go for a GTR IMHO, and pineapples simply do nothing for that - total waste of money if fitted in nuetral setup. You do not need them. They can only support the subframe in a vertical plane, they will not stop it moving laterally or longtitudinally. if your bushes are stuffed, pineapples are not the answer! So you either need to spend a bucket of money on replacement bushes (Noltec or factory) or $140 on alloy blocks which can be fitted at home.

[Sydneykid]

I disagree right back.......you knew that was coming didn't you?

The Whiteline rear subframe alignment kit most definitely does decrease the lateral movement of the subframe. More importantly it decreases the vertical movement as well. In addition it allows you to change the angle of the rear subframe for more, the same or less squat.

The pineapple actually sits partially inside the subframe and it is squeezed in place by the standard nut and large retaining washer. The standard silicone filled bushes are like a bag filled with liquid. Like any liquid, the silicone can not be compressed, so to allow movement of the subframe, the silicone has to be displaced. The pineapple prevents that displacement. Hence the Whiteline rear subframe alignment kit most certainly does increase the rigidity of the standard bushes.

If you are suffering an understeer problem, then the faster (in lap times) approach would be to increase the front grip, not decrease the rear.

cheers

PS 1; the Ottomotto rear subframe kit only has 4 bushes (as per your attached picture) the Whiteline kit has 6.

PS 2; aluminium alloy subframe bushes are illegal in Improved Production, polyurethane bushes are not.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Sydneykid

[Anquetil]

I'm halfway through installing pineapples on my S15, trying to set up for max traction.

The rears are on, however I cannot get the gap big enough on the front to slide it in above the sub frame.

Any hints on how to open up the gap?

[Sydneykid]

I'm halfway through installing pineapples on my S15, trying to set up for max traction.

The rears are on, however I cannot get the gap big enough on the front to slide it in above the sub frame.

Any hints on how to open up the gap?

Loosen the rear nuts all the way (don't remove them) and lever the front down with a LARGE screw driver.

cheers

[BHDave]

I disagree right back.......you knew that was coming didn't you?

...

PS 2; aluminium alloy subframe bushes are illegal in Improved Production, polyurethane bushes are not.

Lol, yeah i figured it was coming as i've seen other threads where you have posted on the topic....

Interesting about the alloy bushes in improved production. So you can replace the actual stock rubber bush with a poly one but can't run alloy subframe bushes? Surely that would also exclude poly pineapples?

[hrd-hr30]

I disagree right back.......you knew that was coming didn't you?

The Whiteline rear subframe alignment kit most definitely does decrease the lateral movement of the subframe. More importantly it decreases the vertical movement as well. In addition it allows you to change the angle of the rear subframe for more, the same or less squat.

nothing you've said there disagrees with anything I've said. but depending on the manner you chose to fit them, they only offer some help vertically to counter torsional forces generated by accelleration and braking. eg "all-round will still allow some vertical movement under accelleration and decelleration - depending on the condition of the bushes. "traction" setup will stop vertical movement under accelleration, but do nothing under braking where it will rely totally on the condition of the bushes, and "drift" setting will do nothing to stop torsional movement of the subframe under accelleration, again relying on the bush to do the work. You still need bushes in good condition with pineapples.

The pineapple actually sits partially inside the subframe and it is squeezed in place by the standard nut and large retaining washer.

only partially and on one end of each mounting point, allowing alot of scope for movment of the subframe pivoting around that "partially inside the subframe" poly ring. they need to be right inside the bush and the subframe at top and bottom if they are actualy going to locate the subframe.

The standard silicone filled bushes are like a bag filled with liquid. Like any liquid, the silicone can not be compressed, so to allow movement of the subframe, the silicone has to be displaced. The pineapple prevents that displacement. Hence the Whiteline rear subframe alignment kit most certainly does increase the rigidity of the standard bushes.

not so. the silicone can still be displaced the other way away from the pineapple (as you only fit one on either the top OR bottom of the bush), and in cases where the bush has already ruptured and the fluid has leaked out, there is no fluid left to displace!

If you are suffering an understeer problem, then the faster (in lap times) approach would be to increase the front grip, not decrease the rear.

I know you know better than to suggest that increasing rear squat will not increase power on understeer. I don't have an understeer problem, but i seem to be in the minority of GTR owners here on that point. I like the nuetral balance of my car now, and increasing rear squat will induce understeer exiting corners = slower.

PS 1; the Ottomotto rear subframe kit only has 4 bushes (as per your attached picture) the Whiteline kit has 6.

that was just the first pic i found of the pineapples. the Fulcrum supplied kit was 4 pce too, and apart from being a different colour they look the same. I see whiteline kit provides 2 additional cut rings for easier mounting above the subrame. nothing you couldn't do yourself in 2 minutes with a hacksaw, and still overpriced IMO.

PS 2; aluminium alloy subframe bushes are illegal in Improved Production, polyurethane bushes are not.

IPRA? who really cares? only 2 GTR's in the country run IPRA! well actually only 1 again now. and the pineapples are not legal either!

sprints, hillclimbs and other speed events all have a seperate awd turbo class these days, and there literally are no rules for that!

[hrd-hr30]

Lol, yeah i figured it was coming as i've seen other threads where you have posted on the topic....

Interesting about the alloy bushes in improved production. So you can replace the actual stock rubber bush with a poly one but can't run alloy subframe bushes? Surely that would also exclude poly pineapples?

pineapples are not leagal either. there is no scope in the IPRA rules to allow for additional bushes to be added to a vehicle to augment the function of a standard bush, or to pack a subframe away from the body.

[Sydneykid]

pineapples are not leagal either. there is no scope in the IPRA rules to allow for additional bushes to be added to a vehicle to augment the function of a standard bush, or to pack a subframe away from the body.

I checked the legality with the technical officers, since I removed the rubber covers and replaced them with polyurethane covers they had no problems. It doesn't matter that the polyurethane covers were thicker than rubber covers they replaced. In addition (and more importantly) there is provision for real wheel alignment changes, anti- squat in the rear being one of those, same as anti dive is in the front. Have a read of rules 1.8, 9.1, 9.3 and particularly 9.14 and open your mind up to the possibiliities.

Cheers

Edited August 9, 2006 by Sydneykid

[hrd-hr30]

I checked the legality with the technical officers, since I removed the rubber covers and replaced them with polyurethane covers they had no problems. It doesn't matter that the polyurethane covers were thicker than rubber covers they replaced. In addition (and more importantly) there is provision for real wheel alignment changes, anti- squat in the rear being one of those, same as anti dive is in the front. Have a read of rules 1.8, 9.1, 9.3 and particularly 9.14 and open your mind up to the possibiliities.

Cheers

1.8 is the definition of an elastometric bush. no freedoms granted there.

9.1 says springs are free provided type and location remain unchanged???

9.3 permits the replacement of elastometric bushes at suspension PIVOT points with other elastometric bushes. the subframe to body mounts are not suspension pivot points. and a pineapple does not replace a bush, it is an additional device which augments the bushes function.

9.14 allows specific freedoms to alter geomtery on certain types of suspension. no specific freedoms are granted for IRS vehicles to alter the location of a rear subframe.

you left out the most relevant rule - 9.10 which allows freedoms to replace any other elastometric bush in the rear end with another elastometric bush. but again a pineapple does not replace another elastometric bush. its an additional device designed to augment the function of an elastometric bush.

not sure what rubber covers you refer to either - my car certainly doesn't have any. but a rubber cover is not an elastometric bush anyway, so cannot be replaced by another. the technical officer is wrong to allow an IRS car this freedom. if you are getting away with it, good for you!

and you can't disable/remove/replace HICAS either, just to really stir things up

Edited August 9, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[hrd-hr30]

maybe you should ask that technical officer if you can replace the washers over those bushes with other ones - that way i could use the alloy blocks!

[Sydneykid]

1.8 is the definition of an elastometric bush. no freedoms granted there.

9.1 says springs are free provided type and location remain unchanged???

9.3 permits the replacement of elastometric bushes at suspension PIVOT points with other elastometric bushes. the subframe to body mounts are not suspension pivot points. and a pineapple does not replace a bush, it is an additional device which augments the bushes function.

9.14 allows specific freedoms to alter geomtery on certain types of suspension. no specific freedoms are granted for IRS vehicles to alter the location of a rear subframe.

you left out the most relevant rule - 9.10 which allows freedoms to replace any other elastometric bush in the rear end with another elastometric bush. but again a pineapple does not replace another elastometric bush. its an additional device designed to augment the function of an elastometric bush.

not sure what rubber covers you refer to either - my car certainly doesn't have any. but a rubber cover is not an elastometric bush anyway, so cannot be replaced by another. the technical officer is wrong to allow an IRS car this freedom. if you are getting away with it, good for you!

and you can't disable/remove/replace HICAS either, just to really stir things up

You are reading it too literally, reread 9.14 in conjunction with 9.10 and look up the definition of "pivot points". Also keep in mind that Rule 9.3 includes the words "not otherwise specified". Plus you need to be aware of the use of the singular and the plural eg, it does NOT say ONE bush must be replaced by ONE bush.

Not one techinical officer, three technical officers. With two technical officers agreeing on the HICAS ruling where they supported the view that 9.13 "All other components of the power steering system are free" includes a rear steering system where fitted.

Probably too techinical a subject for this forum.

cheers

[Cubes]

Boostworx here in Adelaide charges $250 to do it

Thats how much I was quoted... It 'may' have been a workshop loyalty price.

Others may walk in and get charged more.