Branded Vs Non-branded

[Nav2k]

u think non branded ones r good just cos u have low expectations and it 'flows' from one end to another. once u start putting more and more mods u see how good some of them are. at the dump pipe end, the flow is important, its where it starts off and if ur flow isnt smooth its gonna be slower down the pipe the rest of the way with all the restrictions like cat and muffler etc.

sure u see a 3kw difference only when u whack on the exhaust, but it increases. the jap branded ones u pay for research and design. not just for a peice of metal pipe.

IMO same shit with coolers regarding the core, ok piping is important too, but with fluid flow u have slight disturbances that change the flow easily that it slows down a lot. if u wanna be cheap, get a good dump pipe and cat and go non branded the rest of the way (front pipe and cat back).

copied designs of tomei and hks where they try to immitate what these companies have done, small imperfections etc, a weld hanging on the inside and its completely screwed.

if u think a pipe just flows from one end to another then u should get a copied exhaust.

having said all this, i have a non branded one. it came with the car, i cant justify replacing it but if i were to start from scratch now then i probably would shell out.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Nav2k

[ecl]

I dont see why a well made custom (and i stress well made) e.g CES wont flow as well as a jap item

a poorly made custom one will obviously not flow as well

with this said, i've had 2 jap exhausts so I cant tell you the difference between jap ones and custom ones

Edited September 7, 2006 by ecl

[Busky2k]

I think where branded ones can potentially do better is the noise. Because most jap makers tailor each exhaust to each model, you could say the exhaust is optimised for each car in terms of noise. But there is simply no reason why a local can't do as good of a job. The question is, who and for how much, considering Jap cat backs are much more affordable now.

[Nav2k]

I dont see why a well made custom (and i stress well made) e.g CES wont flow as well as a jap item

a poorly made custom one will obviously not flow as well

with this said, i've had 2 jap exhausts so I cant tell you the difference between jap ones and custom ones

no ur completely right on a well made custom one. If its been DESIGNED and tested (not just on a dyno) then sure, it can be just as great (the flow may be one thing with mild mods but it may be different once a greater amount flows with more mods). But these well designed ones, incurr costs. The cost of research and design and precision. Look at the CES prices. I beleive when we're talking bout brand vs no name brand, we're implicitly talking about cheap vs more expensive. CES and a few other companies (non jap) on that same level cost more than the jap branded counter part.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Nav2k

[n15m0]

CES are comparable to Jap brands in some cases better. They have been tried and tested...thats why they cost an arm and a leg.

[Mr. Oizo]

maybe so but they probz been in the business more then any other country when it comes to this stuff.....and that counts for something.....i dunno..........maybe im better off trying a non branded and see hwo ti goes....save myself a few hundred

LOL

Yes, Japan has been making automotive exhausts longer than anyone else.

[Link]

IMO unless your a dyno queen why bother spending an extra $$$ on a jap name exhaust??

Im sure they are all made on a production line, they wouldnt be perfect themselves

Exhaust places imo do a really good job - nothing beats local knowledge, even if it is a jap car

[Nav2k]

how r they different (noticably) if they're off a production line? its not dyno queen or dyno figures..y bother putting on mods if u dont care bout the power figure or its effect?

when u run or play basketball or something why do u wear better shoes than ones that do the job for $20? sure ur paying a lot just for the brand name but u r paying for their R&D behind it as well. ok it's a completely different example but its similar in some ways. u wouldnt play basketball with copied 'nickys' from malaysia or something the same as copied designs of tomei and hks. At least an exhaust shop will stick to the basics and not try fancy things that tomei/hks have figured out how to use accurately.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Nav2k

[Link]

What i meant behind the figures was that it is only a small gain if any

They wont be noticeably different, but a flow test would reveal any imperfections

What else can they possibly do apart from mandrel bends that will give it such a difference??

Different materials??

Edited September 7, 2006 by fat33

[Nav2k]

small bends will slow down the flow of an exhaust a lot. the flow may also not be as streamlined as before. Especially at the dump pipe where u've got the flow starting from the turbo. Every time u hit a disturbance a lot happens to the flow...its easy enough to just 'bend here' and 'bend there' rather than calcualte where it will it will cause the least bit of hinderence. It's not so much the bends as i said, its the dump pipe cat and muffler that shouldn't distrub the flow.

also material considerations but not so much. generally hotter fluid flows faster. thats y ppl put heat wrap on exhausts. all these small things will affect response etc and power maybe not for ur small initial mods but later on as u progress. in the end, ur cars only as good as its weakest link. the impact from coolers etc is much more noticable than exhausts thogh because mainly of these disruptions in the flow causing pressure drops and so on.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Nav2k

[Driftstore01]

OK these are the facts.

I have used both XFORCE catback and APexi N1 catback.

Both are identical , both use 1 x resinator and 1 x mufler on the rear. Both have 3" internals on the muffler with 5" tip.

The Apexi N1 dynoed an extra 7rwkw,, but the midrange was maybe 10kw.

You get what you pay for, All non branded exhausts are made in China from a company who doesnt know what they are selling.

[Link]

OK these are the facts.

I have used both XFORCE catback and APexi N1 catback.

Both are identical , both use 1 x resinator and 1 x mufler on the rear. Both have 3" internals on the muffler with 5" tip.

The Apexi N1 dynoed an extra 7rwkw,, but the midrange was maybe 10kw.

You get what you pay for, All non branded exhausts are made in China from a company who doesnt know what they are selling.

That could have been from anything tho - was it on the same dyno? ambient temperature? fuel?

Im comparing them to a exhaust made at a exhaust shop from scratch, not necessarily a xforce bolt on kit

Its interesting to see however

[n15m0]

Ok guys....putting power aside..

Has anyone thought about the quality/workmanship the jap ones have over your cheap china copies? How long before the muffling capabilities break down in the cheaper versions?? I had a local "supercat" stainless muffler before and it started rusting after less than 6 mths...

What materials they use inside their mufflers? its not just a steel barrel with glass wool packed in it??

Power gains while minimal is not the only thing debated. here...

[n15m0]

Have a quick read on these claims by Apexi:

Lighter, more efficiency, more power, more durability. These are just some of the ongoing goals of our exhaust system division. We firmly believe that the exhaust system is one product on the vehicle that should never be compromised. A premium exhaust system should, when possible, be used from the start to avoid any premature changes a few years later. Many new engines have been engineered extremely well and hastily developed systems have been shown to actually lose power. APEX exhaust specialists toil long hours in the art of exhaust gas flow. Every category of manufacturing is analyzed including CAD design, materials, welding quality, exhaust gas dynamics, engine compatibility, and real world use. Our exhaust systems are considered one of THE standards in our industry. Proven quality outlasts anything else. Experience the standard of quality that tens of thousands of satisfied customers already have.

All A'PEX exhaust systems comply with applicable emission laws since they neither modify nor relocate the required factory emission control devices; they are considered "direct replacement" parts. Such parts do not require a CARB Executive Order (EO) since they are not "add on" or "modified" parts. A'PEX exhaust systems are "functionally identical" to the OEM parts during emission tests. Sound levels are tested on stock vehicles before the product release to ensure compliance with the 95dB limit.

[Nav2k]

OK these are the facts.

I have used both XFORCE catback and APexi N1 catback.

Both are identical , both use 1 x resinator and 1 x mufler on the rear. Both have 3" internals on the muffler with 5" tip.

The Apexi N1 dynoed an extra 7rwkw,, but the midrange was maybe 10kw.

You get what you pay for, All non branded exhausts are made in China from a company who doesnt know what they are selling.

not only the increase now, but its gonna make a greater increase once u start adding other mods etc.

u can argue dyno temperatures etc everything, ofcourse dyno tests aren't conclusive...but chinese copied eexhausts haven't been tested so... ? what do u compare to.

[Link]

not only the increase now, but its gonna make a greater increase once u start adding other mods etc.

u can argue dyno temperatures etc everything, ofcourse dyno tests aren't conclusive...but chinese copied eexhausts haven't been tested so... ? what do u compare to.

Id love to see a bench test comparison with the cat and mufflers they use to just see how much they do flow

[Nav2k]

by flow and tests i mean stream lines of the fluid.

[MBS206]

I'll stick to my locally made exhaust pipes at the moment hey.

Especially, when over the phone, the guy who does my exhausts can actually send a car running slower against the field on the race track, to run a QUIETER exhaust then before, and also net a SHITLOAD more torque, and outrun the opposition. OVER THE PHONE.

A friend of the families builds exhausts for a living. He exports them, they are in HIGH demand in Japan, and in America, ESPECIALLY for imports. They are also a fairly high demand item in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.

The guy is one of two exhaust builders for one of the "Konica" V8s, (I don't know the proper Konica Minolta series now), at a race meet, the other guy went down. They weren't meeting noise levels as this guy decided to change something. He decided to change something again. They met the exhaust sound levels, but couldn't keep up down the straight away or out of corners. They rang the other guy (Our family friend) and he told them over the phone what to change. Next thing you know, the cars even QUIETER then it was, and OUTRUNS the field down the straight and out of the corners.

A proper exhaust, is designed for each individual engine. NOT mass produced.

The point when you know that your exhaust is PERFECT, is when you have 100% flow, and you can barely hear a thing from it. And yes, I have seen this done, and on an old school V8 too!

I'll stick to my exhausts, that get built for each individual engine, over some imported, "brand name" that still costs me double the amount to put on!

[Nav2k]

is that a fact or an opinion?

i agree the optimum exhaust is not a bolt on and should be customised, but what does ur friend do? does he do tests on them, how does he design them? does he simulate the flow or does he just follow basic rules and keep the piping as straight as possible etc. how does he cater for each engine and how is the costs so cheap when the labour involved to do these things wouldn't be that cheap..

and what do u mean by 100% flow? conservation of mass, velocityx densityx area. what goes in goes out at same mass flow. thats a given

Edited September 11, 2006 by Nav2k

[MBS206]

It's all in the restriction.

If you have a restrictive exhaust, they're said to now flow at 100% the capability.

A 2" system on a 2L car say, may be able to flow 10L/second of air.

But another 2" system, on another 2L car (Both the same type of car, everything identical, except for the exhaust) may only be able to flow 9.5L/second, this is where you get a restriction, and you end up with a back pressure in the exhaust (If you actually do some VERY indepth reading on how to design an exhaust, back pressure you want equal to zero, or even a vacuum (Which won't happen!)

Therefore, the second exhaust system, although 2", is said not to have 100% flow through it. It is restrictive.

When the guys I deal with, have been building exhausts for 30+ years, they know every little trick, they even research new items for various things, and new designs. I'll stick with them.

They know how each exhaust system should be setup on what engine, and depending on the variables within the engine, they can slightly alter how the system should be setup.

The design is done through theory, and then tested in practice through gas flow benches (And hey, we're dealing with gasses here, not fluid!), through the dyno, and also on the track when the systems are initially designed. And then the varying factors they know how to alter and how far.

Remember, you can't alter systems all that much, as pipes come in set sizes.

As for different materials, a stainless steel system gives alot nice resonance not over that of mild steel, but then again, if you ever get to hear a copper exhaust system (Illegal), they sound the BEST!!!