Powerfc In An Auto Stagea - Could Be Possible Soon!

[pixel8r]

Hi all!

Just thought I'd share with you some great news from Graham West Workshops. I was there getting my car dyno'd this morning and one of the guys there was telling me they're working on getting a powerfc to work with the auto nissans and having good success.

They told me it would soon be possible, using the factory ecu to run the trans and having all factory sensors still working, but using the powerfc - giving the tuning capabilities that so many auto stagea owners want.

If I understood it all better I might be able to explain it better - but it sounds like this option could soon be a reality for the auto stageas - at least in adelaide anyway.

cheers,

Steve.

[Tangles]

Im aghast! ..... man, god damn that'd be sweet!

looks like my budget just went up a grand.

[Ska]

Yeah actually it would be really interesting to see what happens, not just for Stagea's but for auto Ceffies, Laurels, Tiger's, etc etc etc.

Manual ftw still but

[66yostagea]

I'm moving to Adelaide.lol

66yo

[stasis]

i though power Fc is available for Rs4s?

[mcnamg]

only manuals there has never been a power fc made for a nissan auto toyota has one i believe but the nissan shift logic is much harder so the idea of leaving it be and only using the power fc to control the engine is great only problem i can forsee is that auto will shift at inopportune times. but i am most likely wrong maybe sydney kid has some inuput on this one.

[CruiseLiner]

dont forget the cost of wiring the pfc in if its gonna retain factory ecu for auto shifting. u might as well go an autronics or something full stand alone if thats the case in my opinion

[Tangles]

dont forget the cost of wiring the pfc in if its gonna retain factory ecu for auto shifting. u might as well go an autronics or something full stand alone if thats the case in my opinion

interesting you say that - they are (were, as at when I was last there for a tune) the Autronic dealer..... I hope they dont mind, but I feel its appropriate to share this, so here's part of an email from yesterday evening (yeah, I was on the case pretty quick)

"We are getting closer and will contact all of our Nissan Stagea clients when we have it available, but we are likely to be able to integrate a Power fc into the system and maintain trans control. (Just need a donor car and computer to get this happening) May take us a little while in R&D but i am sure it is possible.

The better option is we are currently looking at full access to factory ecu for mapping.

Either option is going to be better than any piggy back set ups and we have always seen this as good on Stagea, but not as good as the above alternatives."

Brett also finished off with "Now that we are seeing a larger market for the Stagea, we are determined to better support these clients, as more numbers make R&D more affordable to do."

And I for one attest to their top service. They are my tuner and I intend keeping it that way, and make no doubt Im a stickler for gettn the job done for the right timeframe & budget; Im damn happy with their friendly service and Im glad to see the direction they are taking.

They'll be seeing my Slide performance turbo soon enough

Brendan

Edited September 2, 2006 by Tangles

[qikstagea]

far out i hope they get these bad boys on the market soon. i figure they'll come at a premium though... theres gonna be a pretty big demand to start off with, hey. What other options are there?

[huddy]

would running the stock ecu and power fc be similar to jap tuned gtr's etc when they run power fc AND fconV aswell? if u get me?

[GoldZilla]

The PowerFC replaces the stock ECU, plugging into the standard loom using the factory plug.

Why you'd want to run a piggyback computer (the F-Con V) on a fully programmable one (the PowerFC), I can't figure out. AFAIK, there's no logic in that...

[Sydneykid]

interesting you say that - they are (were, as at when I was last there for a tune) the Autronic dealer..... I hope they dont mind, but I feel its appropriate to share this, so here's part of an email from yesterday evening (yeah, I was on the case pretty quick)

"We are getting closer and will contact all of our Nissan Stagea clients when we have it available, but we are likely to be able to integrate a Power fc into the system and maintain trans control. (Just need a donor car and computer to get this happening) May take us a little while in R&D but i am sure it is possible.

The better option is we are currently looking at full access to factory ecu for mapping.

Either option is going to be better than any piggy back set ups and we have always seen this as good on Stagea, but not as good as the above alternatives."

Brett also finished off with "Now that we are seeing a larger market for the Stagea, we are determined to better support these clients, as more numbers make R&D more affordable to do."

And I for one attest to their top service. They are my tuner and I intend keeping it that way, and make no doubt Im a stickler for gettn the job done for the right timeframe & budget; Im damn happy with their friendly service and Im glad to see the direction they are taking.

They'll be seeing my Slide performance turbo soon enough

Brendan

Sounds like 100% BS to me. It would appear that they have no idea what the Engine ECU does to protect the auto gearbox or the volume and quality of mapping that is necessary to achieve that result.

The facts are;

1. The auto gearbox has its own ECU to change gears, up, down, skip, slip, lock up the torque converter etc.

2. The standard Engine ECU retards and cuts the ignition on gear changes to give smooth changes and (mostly) to protect the gearbox from the torque loadings during the WOT gear changes.

3. That level of protection is necessary at STANDARD power. Obviously when you fit a Power FC (or any other ECU or piggyback) you are chasing LOTS MORE than standard power.

4. The standard Engine ECU has an EXTENSIVE set of maps to match the numerous gear change scenarios. Think about the variability’s, uphill, downhill, any one of 4 gears plus reverse, all throttle openings, boost levels etc etc. A Nissan engineer told me that the gear change logic code in the Engine ECU (for ignition cut and retard) was far greater in both volume and complexity that what was required to get the engine to run.

5. Power FC’s do not have that logic and they have no provision for it to be loaded. Do you really think that if it could be done economically Apexi wouldn’t have done it themselves?

6. It’s a piece of piss to get a Power FC to run the engine in an auto, been done heaps of times. The problem is no power cut on gear changes, so with full torque loadings they rip though clutch packs and belts like crazy. The gear changes are both harsh and uncomfortable.

7. The more power you have the worse the problem is. Toughening up the gearbox (vlave body upgrade, Kevlar belts etc) simply make the gear changes harsher and more uncomfortable. The gearbox still dies, it just takes a little longer.

8. To get the ignition cut/retard on gear changes you need the logic (programming) contained in the standard Engine ECU. That means it has to control the ignition timing.

9. Hence all you can do with the Power FC is control the fuel, hardly a brilliant tuning option. Do it for less than half the price with a DFA.

So armed with the above information, ask them how they are going to program the ignition cut/retard on gear changes into the Power FC. Then watch their faces as the reality bites.

cheers

[pixel8r]

Yeah that makes a lot of sense SK.

Very informative and really highlights the real issues involved in getting a full replacement ecu to work effectively in an auto.

When I spoke to the guy at GWW it was just a comment he made in passing - kind of like telling me the option is there for me if I want to go down that road in the future. That said he was fairly vague about it and didn't really expand on how exactly they do it.

I presume by what you've said that it IS possible to run both factory ECU (for controlling auto trans) and another engine management system at the same time, though with little point??

It sounds like either you get comfortable and reliable gear shifts with the factory ECU, but less tunability overall, OR you get great tunability but loads of trouble with the auto trans as a result.

Hope I've read it right.

Some questions then...

1. Would reprogramming the factory ecu (through a programmable daughterboard, supposedly they do exist) be an alternative option (ie. avoid the above issues)?

2. My brother has a V8 falcon auto with shift kit and its completely run by a microtek unit. Gear changes are a little harsh but I think thats his shift kit setup (and it has a locked diff). Would I be correct in thinking that these options ARE there but no one has managed to successfully tune an RB with them yet? (or unichip etc.)

Still, I guess there's a practicality side to it too. You can get enough power through piggybacks etc. to more than kill the auto trans already - so a powerfc really wouldn't be necessary unless you had a manual gearbox anyway?? just another perspective on it.

[funkymonkey]

Some questions then...

1. Would reprogramming the factory ecu (through a programmable daughterboard, supposedly they do exist) be an alternative option (ie. avoid the above issues)?

reprogrammed chipsets usually only change the fuel map data. So even though the car may be able to handle aftermarket turbo's and aftermarket injectors with the remapped ECU, the gear shifts would still technically be programmed to factory RPM's etc. Reprogramming this too might not be that simple.

[Tangles]

Yeah, the PFC has been well discussed over the years, a great search topic for hours of reading! Hell Gary Im sure youve replied to tens and tens of threads here on SAU about it.

Im sure there would be a way around it tho, with big R&D $$ spent and a test car or two - not mine tho Surely with enough r&d $/time spent someone out there will one day be able to run some settings on a PFC and other settings on a standard ecu. ?

I rememeber reading when SITC's were a big unknown with auto's etc.................

However, Personally, I was more interested in the comment "The better option is we are currently looking at full access to factory ecu for mapping."

Pricked up my ears at that; with the $$ Ive invested currently invested into a sitc/safc combo & 2 tunes (soon enough to be 3 tunes) on the rb25, Id be interested in finding out what exactly can be done with remapping to the factory ecu. And where its accessible in Adelaide.

[huddy]

The PowerFC replaces the stock ECU, plugging into the standard loom using the factory plug.

Why you'd want to run a piggyback computer (the F-Con V) on a fully programmable one (the PowerFC), I can't figure out. AFAIK, there's no logic in that...

i realise that

just asking coz i know of a 800hp gtr 32 that came in to oz came with this setup - like you said why run both??? so the power fc was removed... but this did make a difference to the cars tune / how it ran... obviously something that was done in japan... i also dont know why hehe

[Sydneykid]

Yeah that makes a lot of sense SK.

Very informative and really highlights the real issues involved in getting a full replacement ecu to work effectively in an auto.

When I spoke to the guy at GWW it was just a comment he made in passing - kind of like telling me the option is there for me if I want to go down that road in the future. That said he was fairly vague about it and didn't really expand on how exactly they do it.

I presume by what you've said that it IS possible to run both factory ECU (for controlling auto trans) and another engine management system at the same time, though with little point??

It sounds like either you get comfortable and reliable gear shifts with the factory ECU, but less tunability overall, OR you get great tunability but loads of trouble with the auto trans as a result.

Hope I've read it right.

Some questions then...

1. Would reprogramming the factory ecu (through a programmable daughterboard, supposedly they do exist) be an alternative option (ie. avoid the above issues)?

2. My brother has a V8 falcon auto with shift kit and its completely run by a microtek unit. Gear changes are a little harsh but I think thats his shift kit setup (and it has a locked diff). Would I be correct in thinking that these options ARE there but no one has managed to successfully tune an RB with them yet? (or unichip etc.)

Still, I guess there's a practicality side to it too. You can get enough power through piggybacks etc. to more than kill the auto trans already - so a powerfc really wouldn't be necessary unless you had a manual gearbox anyway?? just another perspective on it.

Using other cars as comparison is useless, for example Apexi make a Power FC for auto Toyotas. Apexi can do that because the power cut/reduction mapping in Toyotas is contained in the gearbox ECU, not the engine ECU. Simplistically, the ignition signal goes from the engine ECU to the gearbox ECU and then to the ignitor. So when the gearchanges happen the gearbox ECU does whatever is necessary (as determined by its shift logic program) to cut/retard the ignition. Noting that some cars do both fuel and ignition on gearchanges.

Nissan (in their infinite wisdom) do not do that, the shift logic for ignition cut/retard is contained in the engine ECU. Change the engine ECU and you loose the programming for any power reduction on gearchanges.

I should emphasise that Apexi have obviously found it not worthwhile to do the shift logic programming (ie; make auto Power FC's available for Nissans). Now if the programming costs that much to do and Apexi have found it not economical for 15 years, WHY/HOW would anyone else? So, I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for someone to come up with an aftermarket auto ECU for Nissans.

Moving onto the SITC question. Using an SITC in an auto Nissan (to control the ignition timing) was never ever a problem. The SITC sits between the CAS and the engine ECU. To change the ignition timing the SITC sends altered CAS signals to the engine ECU. For example if I want 5 degrees retarding timing the SITC simply sends a 5 degrees retarded signal to the engine ECU. The engine ECU then simply fires the ignitor at what it thinks is the standard timing. In an auto, the engine ECU cuts/retards the ignition on gearchanges, so having a slightly altered CAS signal (by the SITC) has almost zero effect on gearchange quality.

This is not the same as some other ignition tuning devices (EManage for example) where they sit between the engine ECU and the ignitor. Hence some gearchange quality and gearbox protection is lost when they are used.

Cheers

[Tosh]

However, Personally, I was more interested in the comment "The better option is we are currently looking at full access to factory ecu for mapping."

We have been doing that for 2 years now with great success. I believe Dr Drift also has the equipment to do this as well.

We recently completed an Auto R33 GTS-t with one of our ROM tune ECU's and the car absolutely flies. Our ROM tunes are made in exactly the same fashion that companies like Mines and Amuse do so with they're ROM's. The biggest difference being that ours are tuned to Australian fuel and not Japanese fuel.

PM me if you're interested in pricing. Please insure you list EVERY modification you've made to the engine though in your PM if you decide to do so.

Cheers,

Tosh

[Tangles]

Cheers Tosh, will do !

[pixel8r]

Using other cars as comparison is useless, for example Apexi make a Power FC for auto Toyotas. Apexi can do that because the power cut/reduction mapping in Toyotas is contained in the gearbox ECU, not the engine ECU. Simplistically, the ignition signal goes from the engine ECU to the gearbox ECU and then to the ignitor. So when the gearchanges happen the gearbox ECU does whatever is necessary (as determined by its shift logic program) to cut/retard the ignition. Noting that some cars do both fuel and ignition on gearchanges.

Nissan (in their infinite wisdom) do not do that, the shift logic for ignition cut/retard is contained in the engine ECU. Change the engine ECU and you loose the programming for any power reduction on gearchanges.

I should emphasise that Apexi have obviously found it not worthwhile to do the shift logic programming (ie; make auto Power FC's available for Nissans). Now if the programming costs that much to do and Apexi have found it not economical for 15 years, WHY/HOW would anyone else? So, I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for someone to come up with an aftermarket auto ECU for Nissans.

Moving onto the SITC question. Using an SITC in an auto Nissan (to control the ignition timing) was never ever a problem. The SITC sits between the CAS and the engine ECU. To change the ignition timing the SITC sends altered CAS signals to the engine ECU. For example if I want 5 degrees retarding timing the SITC simply sends a 5 degrees retarded signal to the engine ECU. The engine ECU then simply fires the ignitor at what it thinks is the standard timing. In an auto, the engine ECU cuts/retards the ignition on gearchanges, so having a slightly altered CAS signal (by the SITC) has almost zero effect on gearchange quality.

This is not the same as some other ignition tuning devices (EManage for example) where they sit between the engine ECU and the ignitor. Hence some gearchange quality and gearbox protection is lost when they are used.

Cheers

Cheers thanks for that.

Personally I'm only interested in piggybacks and only to tune AFRs to keep things healthy and economical along the way. It sounds like the SAFC and SITC combo works very well if tuned properly so thats where i'm headed in the distant future...funds permitting.

I find it very helpful to know the above info cos based on that I can see that piggybacks (at least in the foreseeable future) are still going to be the best option.