Diagnose That Leanout!

[SLVR32GTR]

Hey guys,

I recently got my car tuned and the figures that came back were dissapointing to say the least. To give you some back ground on my situation, i had the car tuned for midrange power and did not focus on top end, so the peak power is obviously going to be down on a car with a peak power tune.

The car is a 32 GTR and contains the following goodies:

Hardware:

HKS GT-SS Turbos

Port Match Manifolds

HKS Split dumps

Custom Front pipes (60mm pipes into a 3 1/2in collector)

Catco metal cat with 5in body and 3 1/2in pipes

Trust Cat back (3 1/2in)

PWR Intercooler

Pod Filters

OS Cam Gears

Fuel Delivery:

700cc Injectors

Bosch 044 pump adapted in tank

Electronic:

Apexi Power FC

EBoost2 Boost controller

I was told that the lean out was due to poor pump flow, but i am very sceptical considering the standard fuel delivery components are still good at 270awkw (although running at 100%).

I want to get the opinion of my fellow SAU'ers as to why this lean out would occur. I have my theories but i will keep them to myself for now and see what comes up. The opinions of tuners or people with tuning experience would be greatly appreciated also!

Thanks Guys!

NOTE: Also note that the three different graphs represent the three different boost settings within the Eboost2. SP3 is the graph in question.

Edited September 12, 2006 by SLVR32GTR

[phreeky82]

put a fuel pressure guage on and see if pressure plays up while on the dyno!?!? didn't the tuner do this or at least consider the idea?

[Adriano]

I wouldn't call this a leanout, it looks like the tuner got to high boost, 6000rpm and suddenly learnt how to tune, all those power runs are too rich except the "lean out" Also in reality to tune a motor properly, you dont tune it for midrange power, the only thing that should affect it is cam timing, Mixtures and ignition timing should be optimised for the entire range of rpm and load. PS with those injectors, they should max out at about 450rwkw, with a standard regulator, and a good pump

[SLVR32GTR]

I wouldn't call this a leanout, it looks like the tuner got to high boost, 6000rpm and suddenly learnt how to tune, all those power runs are too rich except the "lean out" Also in reality to tune a motor properly, you dont tune it for midrange power, the only thing that should affect it is cam timing, Mixtures and ignition timing should be optimised for the entire range of rpm and load. PS with those injectors, they should max out at about 450rwkw, with a standard regulator, and a good pump

Yeah, Thats what i thought. The car is tuned way too rich and the sudden jump in afr's is not a trait of a lean out.

As Sydneykid has explained to me, the fuel requirements of the engine near redline are pretty much linear with respect to rpm. This would be evident in a consistent increase in afr, not a sudden jump as portrayed here.

My thoughts are that they were running short on time and decided that i will have to come back and pay again for them to do the proper tune that they should have done the first time!

Thanks for your replies guys.

[Nozila]

you dont seem to be having a good phase atm with the drama's with your car - i read your workshop post as well. hope you that afr issue sorted pronto.

[Kinks]

As Sydneykid has explained to me, the fuel requirements of the engine near redline are pretty much linear with respect to rpm. This would be evident in a consistent increase in afr, not a sudden jump as portrayed here.

I was just about to say the same, even though I have nowhere near as much expertise as SK.

[paulr33]

post up the INJ map

[RB SANDY]

have you adjusted the OS Cam Gears at all.

[SLVR32GTR]

have you adjusted the OS Cam Gears at all.

Havent had a chance to check the cam gears yet as my car is out having the gearbox stripped at the moment. I havent touched them since they were "tuned" though.

I have attached my injector and ignition maps as well as a map trace that i did just going for a quick drive to get fuel one day.

Thanks for your help guys!

[paulr33]

what rpm do you hit %100 inj duty?

i suspect this is why

that makes no sense

how on earth are u hitting 100 inj

what does your INJECTOR table look like?

please post, also post AIRFLOW table

[SLVR32GTR]

what rpm do you hit %100 inj duty?

i suspect this is why

that makes no sense

how on earth are u hitting 100 inj

what does your INJECTOR table look like?

please post, also post AIRFLOW table

I dont see how it could be hitting 100% duty, i have had the peak hold function on the injectors and they dont even hit over 60% from memory with the 700cc injectors. Sorry not too familiar with the power fc yet, what are the injector tables and the airflow table? I dont have datalogit by the way, i just copied the maps from the commander.

Edited September 12, 2006 by SLVR32GTR

[Amaru]

To me it looks like a poor tune. The AFR's are all over the place from the word go.

As someone mentioned above, the tuner should have put a fuel pressure gauge on the lines to see what the pressure was doing. This would narrow it down to wether its a fuel supply problem or tuning problems.

I ran well in excess of 300kw with 700cc injectors, single 044 pump and the stock fuel rail and pressure regulator. The mods you have can definately support it... I would seriously consider taking the car elsewhere.

[SLVR32GTR]

The car is definitely not going back to the original "tuner" and will be taken to matt spry on the goldy for the fix up. The original place pretty much treated me like a dumb sh*t from the word go and gave me the most bullsh*t excuses for problems. The tune definitely does not look like 6.75hrs work.

Edited September 13, 2006 by SLVR32GTR

[Sydneykid]

Havent had a chance to check the cam gears yet as my car is out having the gearbox stripped at the moment. I havent touched them since they were "tuned" though.

I have attached my injector and ignition maps as well as a map trace that i did just going for a quick drive to get fuel one day.

Thanks for your help guys!

There are a few examples of unusual tuning changes, for example the injector maps;

Look along L17, note it reverses direction from 126 to 124 at N15/16. Based on what I have seen, that's never happens. They always need more fuel at higher rpm, not less

Now look down N16, note the smooth increases as the load increases except for L14/15 where it also reverses direction from 126 to 124. Once again, based on what I have seen, they always need more fuel at higher loads (airflow), not less.

The proliferation of 126’s from L17 to L20 and N15 to N20 are signs of un-tuned areas. Even if the engine doesn’t reach that area on the dyno, I would always extrapolate the results accordingly.

cheers

[SLVR32GTR]

There are a few examples of unusual tuning changes, for example the injector maps;

Look along L17, note it reverses direction from 126 to 124 at N15/16. Based on what I have seen, that's never happens. They always need more fuel at higher rpm, not less

Now look down N16, note the smooth increases as the load increases except for L14/15 where it also reverses direction from 126 to 124. Once again, based on what I have seen, they always need more fuel at higher loads (airflow), not less.

The proliferation of 126’s from L17 to L20 and N15 to N20 are signs of un-tuned areas. Even if the engine doesn’t reach that area on the dyno, I would always extrapolate the results accordingly.

cheers

I think that is spot on and thats what i picked up on as well. To ensure my arguement is water tight, i am going to take it to another tuner and get them to put fuel pressure gauges on the car and give me a full report on what really is the problem (absent minded "tuner").

Thanks for your help guys and i trust that you have linked this thread with my original thread regarding my bill for all the "work" done to my car.

[SLVR32GTR]

Hey guys,

Everything about my car has gone pear shaped with regards to the work that the certain workshop performed.

I need to get a report done on the tune by a proper tuner, which will highlight all of the concerned problems. My big question is, will it be possible for a tuner to do a proper report on the leanout with just the dyno graphs and power fc maps of the car??

The reason i ask is because the gearbox is cactus and it wont be rushed getting fixed. The reason i need the reports is because it is more than likely going to escalate into a court battle, and it is very hard for them to argue against written hard evidence.

Thanks guys.

Edited September 14, 2006 by SLVR32GTR

[r33goodz]

all of your troubles have seemingly been caused by the performance shop in question. im not exactly sure what i can say on here, but a threat of going to a local newspaper/taking them to court may change their minds and get them to fix the problem. otherwise you would have to take them to court, whcih means more time and money...

[Beer Baron]

just to add further weight to your argument.

I am running 270rwkw on 15psi with:

BNR32 GTR

standard injectors

standard turbos (i think)

standard IC

Greddy cam gears (tuned for some extra mid range, dropped a few kw up top)

nismo fuel pump

standard regulator

PFC

injectors occaisionaly brush 100% duty and the tune is nice and rich at my request, between 11.5:1 and 12:1.

also intersting that the graph is 'falling over' towards redline. those turbos should not be out of puff at 270kw. do you have a graph with boost on it?

[SLVR32GTR]

just to add further weight to your argument.

I am running 270rwkw on 15psi with:

BNR32 GTR

standard injectors

standard turbos (i think)

standard IC

Greddy cam gears (tuned for some extra mid range, dropped a few kw up top)

nismo fuel pump

standard regulator

PFC

injectors occaisionaly brush 100% duty and the tune is nice and rich at my request, between 11.5:1 and 12:1.

also intersting that the graph is 'falling over' towards redline. those turbos should not be out of puff at 270kw. do you have a graph with boost on it?

Yes, it seems ridiculous to me as well, as i could have pushed the same figure without spending all my cash on my goodies.

I have attached the dyno graph that also displays boost levels. I talked to fair trading, and it looks like i will be taking the matter to the small claims tribunal, hence why i need to get all my evidence together.

With regards to court being more time and money. Yes it will take up more of my time and cost me application fees ($84) which is all claimed back if i win. I just dont want to let them get away with this for the simple fact that i paid them over $3,000 and my car is still sitting in the garage undrivable.

Edited October 10, 2006 by SLVR32GTR

[SLVR32GTR]

Hi everyone, I thought i would give an update to my situation since my other thread was closed regarding the workshop that wrecked my car. (PM me for the name)

As mentioned in previous posts, my gearbox died thanks to a lack of oil put in it when the clutch was changed by the same dodgy place that thinks they can tune. I took the car to Hart Transmissions (who are exellent by the way) and they really looked after me and wrote me up a report on the causes of the failure.

On Thursday the car will be going into PITS to have Matt Spry tune the car properly and have it running the way it should be. I will hopefully get a report written up on his findings of the existing (sh*t house) tune and use it as further evidence when the court hearing is advised.

After dealing with the Office of Fair Trading, nothing came about, and it is now up to me to take them to Small Claims. I have been getting reports done on issues that were a direct result of the workshop in question and i am hoping to make an example of this dodgy workshop that thinks they can charge through the roof for service that is well below average!