Time Attack - November 28

[MountainRunner]

Check out the web site www.TimeAttack.com.au you will see all cars are welcome !!!

Rain does not stop track day.

You have to PM me your email address and get on the list if you want to come to track day. It is a pre-organised event. There are about 5 spots in the morning left and about 10 in the afternoon.

Paul

[Rhinorebel]

Paul, I am in for the arvo session and I will volunteer in the morning.

Sounds like another record breaking day!!

[MountainRunner]

No worries David, got you booked in. I think your right about the day. Its set to be huge.

The guys are booking in for the Time Attack Shoot Out as well, so that will be a good event to watch. One lap - Wnner Takes All. (imagine some theme music here, lol)

Paul

[jmac]

Hi Paul,

Stuff it, stick me in for the morning Shootout too. For $20 it could be fun...

[r_speedfreak_r]

hey i pm'd you to get a position but havnet heard back. hope its not booked out already

[r33_racer]

paid for full day paul. Cheers.

[MountainRunner]

Hey Guys, sorry if I have not answered your PM's. I have been in Melbourne since Sunday. I will get to them tonight. The best way to contact me is by email.

Great thread in the main section about preparing for the day !!!!

Paul

[MountainRunner]

Ok Guys, here is the running list from the SAU. Great turn-out !!!

(volunteers are in morning and afternoon as I have not allocated yet)

Morning

Col-GTSX

rhinorebel

Konrad

jmac

J-Boy

r33 racer

nate79

maccattack

Giant

Baysidebluebnr34

Afternoon

OperationSideways

Col-GTSX

r_speedfreak_r

rhinorebel

jmac

J-Boy

r33 racer

Willo

maccattack

Giant

[r33_racer]

This is going to be truly awesome. Im keen to see how we go againt Giant and maccattack, a gtst vs two gtrs lol...sound even?

[r_speedfreak_r]

its about time the gts-t's stepped up and out performed the big daddy lol

[J-Boy]

Looks like its an awesome lineup....hmmm giant's gonna be out there this time? Very interesting indeed!

[hrd-hr30]

This is going to be truly awesome. Im keen to see how we go againt Giant and maccattack, a gtst vs two gtrs lol...sound even?

a stripped out race only vehicle running full slicks, vs two road going cars on semis. Doesn't sound very even at all!

I think the results and records should note what type of tyre the time was done on - eg slick, semi, or street.

Edited October 3, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[r33_racer]

aww but i dont have 4 wheel drive and they have more experience then me. thats a big part i believe....my lack of experience.

Not only that they arent exactly lightly modded gtrs are they?

Just for the record weve found that directly swapping from hard semis to medium compound slicks shows about a good 1.5 second improvement straight off. On an awd car probably more, some of the fellas in wrxs claim as good as 2.5-3 seconds straight off....thats a big improvement.

[MountainRunner]

Hey Guys,

I appreciate the various issues with the time attack results. My goal is to develop a set of "Classes" that are competed in. For the front page and top 10 is will be the best of the best. Maybe with some considerations.

If you guys want to have a bash at helping me develop a fair class system, lets start a new thread. The I will create a new page on the web site for the "Class Top 10" in each class.

Paul

[r33_racer]

It depends on how much detail you want to go into for breaking up the classes. It could be easier to just state if the car is road/race and the tyres used. But i can assure you there will be road cars quicker then race cars there. If you made a category for cars on slicks....who else would be in it bar myself? Is there anyone else out there yet who has run on slicks? However the sprints at qr are split up into road and race cars with each group comprised of cars that run similar times.

[hrd-hr30]

From my experience, the fast guys who have invested a bit of time and money into their cars tend to have a bit of a competitive streak. The kind of things that really annoy people at events is having a full-on race car in their class, or cars on slicks in their class. There's two ways around that - seperate the race cars/slick-shod cars into a Race Only/Sport Sedan category, or don't include their times in the same top 10 as everyone else who's running DOT race rubber. But at what point does a car become a race car? Having those demarkations can lead to some niggle about who should be in what category, which really isn't alot of fun... So probably the better way to go is to not include slick times in the top10 list on the Time Attack page.

The problem you will face if you do allow slick shod cars into the top 10 results with everyone else on DOT tyres is that all the serious cars, and there are alot of people at your events with some serious hardware who obviously have some money to spend on their cars, will go out and buy slicks for the extra 2-4 seconds they are worth to lap times, irrespective of wether that other car is in their class or not. Its the cheapest 2seconds they'll ever get! You have the top10 on the front page of the TimeAttack site and that's where the fast guys will want to stay, or get to. It will only take one or two slick shod cars to push out people who currently have a top10 spot to start that tyre war. You need to decide if that's the direction you want your event to go. Personally I think it should retain its 'Super Lap' feel, with DOT rubber and not too many other restrictions.

But if you want to, there are various ways to go about breaking cars into classes:

QLD Hillclimbs and Supersprints basically use the CAMS classes, where the main categories are Improved Production for modified road cars running DOT tyres (including semi slicks), and anything on slicks is automatically in Sport Sedans. Those categories are broken up into capacity classes 0<1600cc, 1601-2000cc, 2001-3000cc, 3001 and over. They can be simplified to Under 2L and Over 2L. Turbo cars have a multiplication factor of 1.7, so a GTR with 2568cc*1.7=4365cc and in the over 3L class. Alot of places now also have a seperate class for AWD turbos. Problem with IPRA rules is they are too restrictive for modern vehicles. So places like QR simplify it and get rid of eligibility concerns by making it Street class (modified or not) and Race class. Slicks are not allowed in street class.

NSW do it slightly differently. They have Type 1 to Type 4, and Type SV for kit cars and AWD turbos. Type 1 is for standard vehicles, Type 2 is for lightly modified vehicles, Type 3 is for more modified street cars, Improved Production and Production Rally Cars, Type 4 is basically Sport Sedans and anything else on slicks. These are broken into capacity classes as well. They do have some guidelines on what level of mods fit into type 2 and when it becomes Type 3, but it is basically at the organiser's discretion.

Basically, I think that all becomes a bit too complicated for the organisers and for compiling results. And having been to the last event, I don't really think different classes are needed. Everyone was very happy and having alot of fun. Making different classes might only make it more daunting or complicated for competitors too? Particularly if the classes start specifying what mods you can and can't do, or this kind of mod puts you up in that class and so on. that kind of thing that goes on at CAMS events really detracts from the fun factor. A class for AWD turbos, and classes for Under 2L and Over 2L should be enough. Or maybe break it down into RWD and FWD - there are so many options! You'd need a seperate class for race cars and/or slicks, because of the massive performance advantage they have. Or maybe break it up in a similar way to HPI magazine keeps the drag records in the back of their mag? But I don't think they don't have any turbo multiplication factor, so a NA 2L is up against a turbo 2L, which isn't exactly fair. It all gets kinda complicated real quick when you start making classes! I think its great the way it is - everyone out there having fun and tying to improve their own lap times.

I think I may have just compicated matters rather than helping. sorry Paul!

Harry

[r33_racer]

yes that is getting complicated. Perhaps I will just run on semi's if possible for the day. Even though it is a race car i honestly dont think it will be the quickest car there. There are some serious gtrs attending, so you cant alienate me just because my car is 2a logged. But i do get where your coming from Harry. I get pissed off in the same way that we have to run with the westfields and kit cars at QR and MP and you just cant beat them. So id imagine that people would get frustrated with a race car going up against road cars.

Anyway its upto Paul about the classes and what not. Im happy to abide by any of the rules he wants to implement about the time classifications and the sort. At the end of the day its all experience for me as my time with the race car is limited because my old man hogs it

[hrd-hr30]

I didn't mean to sound like you shouldn't run on slicks. I don't care if there are cars running on slicks, but I don't think its fair to put times set on slicks in the Top 10 up against everyone else who has set their times on DOT race tyres.

what lap times does your car do at the Top Gear race meetings, Michael?

[r33_racer]

57's around the sprint track and normally 1:20's around the national with best time being a 1:19.7. However those times are my old mans and the most recent, last time i went out the car was completely different, but my times were much the same as his and i cant recall what i was running. I should be having a go at the next sprint and top gear event so i should have some indication of my times before the Time Attack. However the car is gonna be different again with further mods happening before the next lot of meetings. So like i said other cars will be faster then us, possibly more if im not upto scratch.

[MountainRunner]

That is the reason I have not implemented a class system yet. It gets really complex really fast. You guys have got a lot of good information above. Here is what I was originally thinking:

The Cars:

Anyone who meets the criteria can come and drive at track day. No mandating of modifications etc. I personally love seeing hardcore cars hitting the track and don't want to change that.

At track day:

The grouping system is that similar speed cars run together. This is for safety to minimise overtaking and to give you clear track ahead. I let guys run together if they want unless thei times vary too much.

Top Ten Results:

The top ten on the front page is the best of the best.

I am leaning towards DOT approved tyres (ie no full slicks) The only problem is I don't have a record of tyres for any of the hundreds of lap records I now have. It would be unfair to scrap records of all those guys at this stage.

Class Results:

I want to add another page with the class results. That way each group of guys can be shown to have achieved in their category. This is important.

I have looked at classes using engine capacity, but as Harry and Michael have said it gets complicated quickly as you soon need AWD / RWD / FWD etc.

Brain Dump:

1. I don't want to stop anyone from running their car the way they want. We are about Time Attack, which means the best setup for the best lap in its purest form.

2. I don't want it to feel unfair between slicks / semi slicks / street rubber guys. I don't want to start a tyre war either.

3. Driver ability has a lot to do with the lap time. I have seen hundreds of cars and thousands of laps and the car alone does not make the lap time.

Idea:

I could make the classes based on the car type. GTS class, GTR class, WRX class, EVO class etc. That way the front page celebrates the achievements of our die hards but the classes show the achievements within a car type. The mods and tyre choice still push people to the top but thats the competitive nature of motorsport.

Please keep the ideas and comments coming. I am in a hundred minds about this as you guys are. How to make it simple but fair. All systems have there pro's and con's. It comes down to what we want the top ten to mean and what each class should mean in our context.

Paul