Difference Between Redtop And Silver Top Rb20

[black sky]

Hi people

i can pick up a red top rb20 for a good price with a little bit of work done to it and i was wondering if i do get this engine can i use all my parts from the silver top engine like manifold gt30 turbo coil packs injectors microtech ect ect i basically want to make sure i can put this engine in and everything plugs into the right places and will fire up. Do i have to change the loom or anything like that??

Also what is the difference between these engines like the different power output???

Cheers

anthony

[RB20_ZED]

Hi people

i can pick up a red top rb20 for a good price with a little bit of work done to it and i was wondering if i do get this engine can i use all my parts from the silver top engine like manifold gt30 turbo coil packs injectors microtech ect ect i basically want to make sure i can put this engine in and everything plugs into the right places and will fire up. Do i have to change the loom or anything like that??

Also what is the difference between these engines like the different power output???

Cheers

anthony

dont know about ur first question but im interested also

the other question -

red tops less stock power ~10kw or something

red tops more low down torque (not much difference though)

once uv started to modify the redtop - the differences wont matter.

[Angus Smart]

i'd say one has a red top and the other silver

[funkymonkey]

The red one's a NICS engine and the silver one's a Plazma engine from memory. Altho the series 1 cefiro's had silver top NICS engines (fun fun fun)

They use different AFMs, alternators and ECU plugs, but its not that hard to modify em to work with the silvertop ancillaries.

[Jago]

Red top is the old NICS. 12 port intake, really piss fart breathless turbo and shocking ECU mapping. Also has butterfly plates in the intake to control/limit flow at certain points, something with more stable power delivery or somethin, can't remember that well off the top of my head. But yea, fix the ECU up, change the turbo, get rid of the butterfly plates and clean it up a little and the red top will be fine.

[funkymonkey]

Cheers

anthony

anth u pewf... is your car in sydney or are you in melbourne?

[Jago]

oh and yes i think the wiring is different. I can't recall about the internals, but i know for a fact that the head/bottom ends aren't interchangable with the two RB20's, different bolt pattern, i think.

[black sky]

Red top is the old NICS. 12 port intake, really piss fart breathless turbo and shocking ECU mapping. Also has butterfly plates in the intake to control/limit flow at certain points, something with more stable power delivery or somethin, can't remember that well off the top of my head. But yea, fix the ECU up, change the turbo, get rid of the butterfly plates and clean it up a little and the red top will be fine.

Ok but will the loom from my silver top plug into the red top now this engine is an ex under 2lt sports sedan engine so i would be asuming that the butterfly's would already be taken out of it. Everything else i want to change over from my motor that being coil packs (split fires) injectors, gt30turbo engine management ect ect.

So how much power did these engines make i.e the under 2lt sports sedans if anyone knows and do you think that the engine would have any internal work done to it?? the guy i'm buying it off said that the engine looks to be ported which is a good thing as they have f*^$k all breathing. However he does not know the condition of the motor because he has never seen it running but like i said it's damn cheap

any info would be great?

Cheers

anthony

[black sky]

anth u pewf... is your car in sydney or are you in melbourne?

I'm in sydney but my damn car's still in melbourne!!!!

[blind_elk]

Red top is the old NICS. 12 port intake, really piss fart breathless turbo and shocking ECU mapping. Also has butterfly plates in the intake to control/limit flow at certain points, something with more stable power delivery or somethin, can't remember that well off the top of my head. But yea, fix the ECU up, change the turbo, get rid of the butterfly plates and clean it up a little and the red top will be fine.

The butterflies are used for variable inlet runner lengths. They tend to eventually jam in one position so that the car runs shit at one end of the rev range and shit hot at the other.

The manifolds are different to the ECCS engines.

If this particular engine has a turbo, then it can't be an under 2litres sports sedan; turbos have a 1.7 capacity fudge-factor, so it's equivalent to 3.4 litres.

[Jago]

NICS(red top) cams have more lift on the exhaust side, silvertop inlet cam has slightly more duration. Injectors are in different position. Silvertop ECCS has a better flowing intake. The butterflies on the NICS redtop open at around 3800rpm, like i mentioned before, a power thing, so you don't want them stuffed up (get rid of them alltogether).

I'm not too sure about the internals, you'd have to take them out and compare them side by side.

I can try and dig up more info on the NICS butterfly system and ECU if you need it.

NOTE: there are TWO versions of the red top RB20, a red top NICS and red top ECCS, so DO NOT confuse red top ECCS with silvertop ECCS. Differences between redtop NICS and ECCS are: ECCS redtop head aint as good flowing, has SLIGHTLY better turbo than NICS, slightly better ecu and inlet (still 12 port, still has butterflies i think)

[SteveL]

There are 2 types of red top RB20DET:

NICS - already discussed here, fitted to some Jap spec R31's from 1986 to about mid-1987, ~140kW at the flywheel.

ECCS - fitted to some Jap spec R31's (1987 ->), that is it replaced the NICS version. ~150kW at the flywheel. Manifold arrangement is very similar to the R32 type (no variable inlet), but other detail differences included non-BB turbo.

[SteveL]

...still has butterflies i think)

No, and head flow is very similar to the R32 type.

[Jago]

There are 2 types of red top RB20DET:

NICS - already discussed here, fitted to some Jap spec R31's from 1986 to about mid-1987, ~140kW at the flywheel.

ECCS - fitted to some Jap spec R31's (1987 ->), that is it replaced the NICS version. ~150kW at the flywheel. Manifold arrangement is very similar to the R32 type (no variable inlet), but other detail differences included non-BB turbo.

Red top ECCS still has 12 port intake, better flowing than the NICS one though

[SteveL]

Red top ECCS still has 12 port intake

They all have 12 port intake, and red-top ECCS intake is very similar to silver type (I've owned and directly compared both types, FWIW).

[RB20/30Det_VL]

hey mate

the eccs redtop is the better of the lot (NICS, silvertop) that is if u change the ecu aftermarket or remap, port the head and match the manifold, get rid of the butterflies, u can port these heads/manifolds more than the silvertops, the cams are more aggressive, and the bottom end is roughly the same although it is fairly strong and can take a beating

silvertop 6 port manifold can not go on to redtop 12 port (ECCS or NICS) as the ports dont match and coolant gallery closest to the radiator doesnt line up right

head and bottom ends arent interchangeable different bolt patterns between the silvertop and redtops

loom will connect in some spots, u can run the ignitor and coil packs, CAS is different and there are 3 different redtop ones, but u can use a silvertop CAS as it bolts up, injectors are smaller on the redtops

anyway that is all i can think of, the many let downs on the redtops were the ecu, port design, inlet manifold. but if u modify them then they go fairly well, but it is hard to get gaskets now!

i preferred my redtop over the 20/30det and the 25/30det, yea the 20/30det and 25/30det had the power and torque but they didnt have the reliablity and the ability to be thrashed or worked hard like the good old rb20, now the redtop is back in my VL plus its a gts-r motor so i didnt want to get rid of it as these are rare

[RB20_ZED]

sorry to hijack but...

what is all this talk about butterfly valves in the intake?!?!?

i have a red top NICS and the only butterfly valve in the intake i can see is the actual throttle body lever...

are these valves after the throttle body in the intake manifold??

[Col-GTSX]

I did a big write up on the differences years ago...

The red top does have a different bolt pattern to the silver top. Yes there are 3 rb20 motors. However all the HR31's only ever came from factory with red top engines. If you see a HR31 with a silver top this motor was swaped out of a R32.

Silvertop offers the most refined and highest power output from factory. Also parts are very easy to come by...

Redtop NICS - 140kw ish at flywheel, 12 post plenium with vacum operated butterflys.

Redtop ECCS - 150kw ish at flywheel, 6 port plenium.

Silvertop ECCS - 160kw ish at flywheel, 6 port plenium.

Easy way to identify the 2 red tops is by the runners under the main plenium gallery, or of course by the big badge ontop of the plenium...

I used to have 2 HR31's both came with Redtop NICS engines as standard. I believe that this engine was a huge nightmare as my first 31 spent more time broken then working. As parts are almost impossible to get.

I would always choose the silver top ECCS engine over any other Rb20 simply do to parts and aviablility of aftermarket stuff.

Give you a story. My first HR31 GTS'X had an issue one day which i had no idea how to fix. I assumed it was either an AFM or a CAS. However i didnt know anyone with a red top enigne to swap out and test. So i ended up getting it tested by petro-jet and yes the afm was stuffed.

Priced around the the cheapest i could get a new AFM for the red top was $690. Plus i had to pay petrojet for their labour.

I had no option to buy second hand, cause there simply was not any aviable second hand.

Second hand parts for a silver top and that afm would have cost me $50-80...

This reason alone should help make your decision easier.

[black sky]

I think i might just try and find a silver top rb20 this engine does sound good but with my luck it'll break and i'll be stuck trying to find parts thanks for the posts guys.

Cheers

anthony

[RB20_ZED]

are these butterflys easy to remove and will this change the performance of the engine?