Interesting Bathurst Info.

[GT-R LM]

Sorry but the Japanese do not know how to build the quickest race cars

your kidding right, they made the GTR

[Duncan]

sure, but it was fred gibson who engineered them into dominating race cars

[Whiplash]

the DJR sierra's had a huge amount of power, After talking to JB recently he still believes that they are the best race cars he's ever driven. a bit scary in the rain though

The RS500 is the only car that would get me out the skyline

[Roy]

your kidding right, they made the GTR

They made a quick road car ripping off technology pioneered by this car

...and with far less a budget, and less development time the Aussie Gibson GTRs were quicker then the factory Nissan GTRs in Japan. Its no fluke that the Stone Bros/DJR also had about the quickest Sierras in the world as well. Aussies build quick tin tops

[frankxinyu]

^^^not in the drag GTRs tho....we suck...

and dont blame on the budget.....

on the side note, we should try to stop importing any jap made cars/parts/anything, and see how well ppl here can make cars.

we would see plenty of commodores with skidders doing skids in the rain.

SAU would be closed as well.

[gtr660hp]

What about 1988 when the Sierra'a romped home.

GTR's are quick but also dated technology...my highly modded one gets left in the dust(at QR) by my mates 2005 carrera cup car...embarising really when a 2.8L twin turbo(600HP) 4WD car is smashed by a 3.6L NA(400HP) rear wheel drive car. ha ha...those Porsche are an amazing piece of gear.

[MFC05]

What about 1988 when the Sierra'a romped home.

GTR's are quick but also dated technology...my highly modded one gets left in the dust(at QR) by my mates 2005 carrera cup car...embarising really when a 2.8L twin turbo(600HP) 4WD car is smashed by a 3.6L NA(400HP) rear wheel drive car. ha ha...those Porsche are an amazing piece of gear.

Good point but it still was legendary car, i dont know much abot there Porsche Carreras i never thought they wer that quick. the Carreras modify in any way, how could a 3.6 NA (400HP) car beat a 600HP car ??

go figure

[Roy]

Carrera Cup cars have good power, good brakes, good suspension and good chassis. Driven well they will always be quick. But at the end of the day, its a 280kw 1380kg car. So whislt you can throw some parts at a car to make it quicker over a few laps, but not over 10 laps.

Based on some of the Vic GTRs, if you spend your money right and drive the things well, there isnt much that will ebat them. Hell last years Dutton Aaron34 was quicker in an R33 GTR then Peter Fitzgerald in a GT3

[djr81]

Some random points & corrections:

The 1990 race was the first Bathurst the GT-R entered. In terms of its suspension development and tune it was horrible.

The 1988 race that the DJR Sierra attended was in England, Silverstone from memory. DJ qualified on pole & led the race for a short while until mechanical failure intervened (A waterpump failure). I don't believe he lapped anyone. It was not an all Sierra race, but a "British Tourist Trophy" race.

"Sierra's didn't pull away from the Nissan up Mountain straight." There is a memorable scene of Jim Richard's giving one of Allan Moffat's Sierra drivers an up yours (old school style with the thumb) as he blew his doors off up Mountain straight.

The GT-R's NEVER made their homologation weight. It is all well and good to complain about the restriction CAMS placed on them, but there were also weight, rev & other restrictions placed on the Sierras, M3's & Commodores in the last years of the Group A category. Why? Well anyone who sat through the 91 season would understand why it had to be done. The other important point was that in 1992 Group A was a dying category. All the major car companies had stopped developing and homologating cars for it - which meant the GT-R was not going to be bettered. However, anyone who ever saw the 4WD Cosworth Escorts, the 2 litre BMW 3 series or the AWD Audi A4 2 litre cars would have cause to doubt the engineering prowess of the rival car companies.

The GT-R got called Godzilla because that is what Phil Scott from Wheels magazine called it - the name stuck.

Gibson motorsport installed a switch in the car that meant the GT-R's launched in 2WD mode & run like that for a couple of seconds - till the 4WD was engaged again. So technically the didn't have a 4WD advantage off the line.

Holden didn't "work out all the had to do was keep up with em till the poor old turbo's exploded." They (Holden) went as fast as they could all day. They only narrowly beat the second DJR Sierra & Larry Perkins privateer VL.

Yes a GT-R is now pretty old technology. Hardly surprising given the first of them are rapidly closing in on 20 years old. A good Porsche will kick a GT-R's backside around most circuits. Which you would expect given how much the damn things cost & the fact that they are quicker than the V8 supercars at some circuits.

[Roy]

Out of interest, what curcuits are they quicker. I know they get close, but wasnt aware they were quicker anywhere?

And the Sierras were typically faster then the Nissans in a straight line...it was alll very boost dependent, which was based on the phase of the race. Didnt DJR out qualify the Nissans in teh 92 Bathurst as well?

[djr81]

At Oran Park.

Alex Davison did a 1.08.3360 against Jason Brights 1.08.8608.

They came close at Hidden Valley

Alex Davision 1.09.5227 against Skaife's 1.09.2209.

Hard to say at some other places becasue the Porkers didn't front at Wanneroo or Queensland.

Bathurst 92:

DJR 2.12.898

Gibsons GT-R 2.14.546

The other two GT-R's were out in 16's.

Truth be told the Sierra's were a little thin that year, with Longhurst having gone back to BMW, Brock to Holden, Glenn Seton running a Falcon (+ 1 Sierra) & only really Colin Bond with a top line car. Allan Moffats effort wasn't what it was previously.

[Roy]

At the end of the day, the GTR was the ultimate Grp A Touring Car. And so it ought to be.

It was built with the regs in mind and built to win the series. It was a purpose built car up agaisnt a tricked out little 4 cylinder with some basic aero. A little shopping hatch with a big FO snail on a low compression motor. Family 4 door with hot engine and basic aero but not much else.

When you sit back and think about it, anything less would have been a failure for the GTR.

Imagine if in 1986 Holden decided to build a new Torana to beat the Sierras internationally. Using the Lotus designed all alloy 32 valve quad cam LT5 V8 sourced from GM and the ZR1. Threw it in a body shell based on the upcoming VN Commodore, or revised Opel platform, but using active suspension designed by GM owned Lotus, who were big in the development of active aero in the 80s. Using panels penned by GM with aero by TWR in a similar vein to the Opel Calibra.

Instead they took a lowly sedan, slapped on some plastic, some tough and durable internals and played the waiting game.

I sit back and think what woudl Nissan have come up with if they were in their current financial woes back in the late 80s and still wanted to go racing. It would have been interesting to see the R32 be a progression of the original 2ltr GTR and the R31 GTS-R. Alloy panels, fater guards and better aero, but breathed on RB20. Woudl have been interesting and would have made the racing a lot more interesting

[djr81]

Fair to say it was the ultimate Group A car because it was pretty much the last of them to be homologated.

Mind you an M3 in its last iteration was a pretty awesome thing. Just a completely different philosophy.

Not sure why you are bagging the Sierra's so much, Roy. They were for a few years the shit in the group A racing. That they lasted as long as they did as a competitive proposition should tell you something. Remember that Sierra raced against the DR30's, the R31's & also the R32's. From 87 to 92 is a long, long time in touring cars.

At the end of the day, Group A was a technically interesting formula. Unfortunately like most formulas that aren't control specs they are far too expensive & don't produce close racing.

I want a Group A car other than my GT-R. Say a Volvo 240T?

Holden did try to win internationally. Tried, but failed. Have a look at the current issue of Australian Muscle Car. Grice kicked some arse for a while there.

Edited September 25, 2006 by djr81

[sav man]

Didn't the Rothmans Brock VL win the monza round of the WTCC? (after the first 5 M3's were disqualified)

If I had the money, i'd love a RS500, my uncle has one.

[hrd-hr30]

here's the short version of GTR race history in Aus:

it debuted in the last 2 races of 1990. In its first race it set a new lap record on the 2nd lap! It only competed in the ATCC for 2 full seasons (91 & 92), both of which it won, and it won Bathurst both those years too.

you can squabble over details all you want. the results speak for themselves.

[djr81]

Didn't the Rothmans Brock VL win the monza round of the WTCC? (after the first 5 M3's were disqualified)

If I had the money, i'd love a RS500, my uncle has one.

Actually I think it was something like eight of em... The car was for Moffat & Harvey, bought from Brock after the both of them left his employ. Problem was, because Moffat didn't enter the WTCC he didn't score any prize money.

Thinking about it if I had the money I would have something like a second evolution of the 2.3 -16V 190E Merc. Didn't go, but it made the Walkinshaw VL Commode look sedate.

Here is the short version of the factory Jaguar XJS in Australia.

Entered for the 1985 Bathurst 1000.

Finished 1st & 3rd.

Retired.

The results speak for themselves.

Edited September 25, 2006 by djr81

[Roy]

Not sure why you are bagging the Sierra's so much, Roy.

Huh? Does it sound like im bagging out the Sierras? Didnt mean to, if you know me they are actually one of my favourite cars, so much that i am going to try and buy one next year when working in the UK. The only thing that will stop me form buying one is if i can somehow afford a TVR

But Sierras rule!

Fair to say it was the ultimate Group A car because it was pretty much the last of them to be homologated.

But again, as i understand it they homologated a car they built to go Grp A racing. Ford, Holden, BMW, Mercedes, Rover etc were homologating cars that were family production cars. I concede Holden changed the 308 to 304 so that they avoided the 5000cc weight drama, and they came up with a trick inlet system in the Walki/VN Grp A...but they didnt design a road car to exploit the rule book of a class of racing.

Not takign away from Nissan, they simply did a better job. But from a spectator standpoint it was a shame to see a car dominate much like the Sierras had before, though the R31, M3 and Commodores had their moments in the sun during the SATCC

[GT-R LM]

here's the short version of GTR race history in Aus:

it debuted in the last 2 races of 1990. In its first race it set a new lap record on the 2nd lap! It only competed in the ATCC for 2 full seasons (91 & 92), both of which it won, and it won Bathurst both those years too.

you can squabble over details all you want. the results speak for themselves.

100 percent correct , Total domination.

Funny how a old R32 loses to new porsches. I guess its only taken porsche 10 years to catch up

back in 95 when the R33 GTR was breaking Nurburgring production car records,Porsches were boats and used rudders to steer

Edited September 25, 2006 by nismo 400 R N1

[Roy]

100 percent correct , Total domination.

And im not meaning to sound liek im detracting from the GTR, it is an awesome car. But another thing i consider is that Gibson was the gun team, with the gun budget and the best cars out there.

I sometines wonder (based on how well the Winfield VP Commodore went) if Seton took Peter Jackson and Nissan with him rather then goign Ford Sierra, leaving Gibson to run another make of car.

If Nissan wasnt beign run by the best team at that time, and they ran say a Commodore or M3, would the GTR have enjoyed the same level of success relyign on the Japanese parts bin????

LOL, im so full of sh1t...all these hypotheticals

[djr81]

No more full of sh!t than the rest of us.

I suppose the indicator of how the Gt-r's would have gone in another team is to see how Bob Forbes got on with that car & then with the VP Commode in the years that followed (Morphing into WGR in later years)

I don't hink that given the way DJR ran their Sierra's anyone could say it was all the Gibson teams brilliance. Look at how they got on before & after the GT-R...

For me the closest thing to a fully blown Group A special is perhaps the M3. It owed practically nothing to the povvo 3 series by the end.