Interesting Bathurst Info.

[Roy]

Look at how DJR went when they lost Stone Brothers and Bowe

I want to see diverse racing again with cool cars. Otherwise i am goignt o have to wait until my numbers come up and i own an R31 GTS-R, a Walkinshaw and a Sierra. The coolest garage ever, and do you know i already have the plates worked out for them all

[floody]

yeah but it was never considered a threat either by dinosaur cubic inches heads and sAfrican Americaned at.... it taught lessons!!! thats why all the kafufal.

Lay off the crack. Alan Moffat's group C RX7 pretty much finished off that category, hosing the V8s in what, 1983.... Then came group A Volvo showed in 1985 that they were a chance, then hosed everyone in 1986...Then the HR31...Sierras...

Gee, those dinosaur cubic inch heads sure didn't know what was coming when the GT-R arrived, I bet they sAfrican Americaned at it...

Thats as stupid as the constant "GT-R's killed group A" old wives tale - not like group A was buggered from worldwide abandonment and plummetting crowds....

Edited September 25, 2006 by floody

[floody]

sure, but it was fred gibson who engineered them into dominating race cars

I'd agree with that - given that the DJR sierra hosed the then fastest touring cars in the world, then the GT-R hosed it, I would say aussie ingenuity had a lot to do with it.

In Japan, the HR31 GTS-R dominated everything; but it seems the competition weren't up to much - when sierras are being blown away by the R31 something is wrong!....

Heck, when the GT-R arrived over there it was one hell of a big fish in a small pond, out here they dominated but had it nowhere near as easy.

I think in the late 80's and early 90's the aussie Group A field was probably the best in the world.

[frankxinyu]

And im not meaning to sound liek im detracting from the GTR, it is an awesome car. But another thing i consider is that Gibson was the gun team, with the gun budget and the best cars out there.

I sometines wonder (based on how well the Winfield VP Commodore went) if Seton took Peter Jackson and Nissan with him rather then goign Ford Sierra, leaving Gibson to run another make of car.

If Nissan wasnt beign run by the best team at that time, and they ran say a Commodore or M3, would the GTR have enjoyed the same level of success relyign on the Japanese parts bin????

LOL, im so full of sh1t...all these hypotheticals

yeah, i understand what you are saying. but internationally, GTRs have always been a success, although in different levels.

even the R34 nowadays, can still come up strong against a lot of the super cars made, not even mentioning the HSVs.....

so GTRs are not perfect, but at least legendary.

[hrd-hr30]

But Sierras rule!

But again, as i understand it they homologated a car they built to go Grp A racing. Ford, Holden, BMW, Mercedes, Rover etc were homologating cars that were family production cars. I concede Holden changed the 308 to 304 so that they avoided the 5000cc weight drama, and they came up with a trick inlet system in the Walki/VN Grp A...but they didnt design a road car to exploit the rule book of a class of racing.

everyone was homologating group A "evolution" models.

Ford Cosworth Sierra RS500 - the 500 came from the FISA requirement to build 500 Evolution models to qualify for homologation.

Volvo were involved in a bit of a scandal after FISA could not purchase one of their homologation specials in 1985, because Mercedes stripped all but 23 of the Evolution models they built and turned them back into standard 240 turbos for sale.

The Brock/HDT and later Walkinshaw Commodores were homologation specials.

BMW definitely had homologation specials. Group A homologation was the main reason for the first M3.

Even Toyota had Group A homologation specials.

In fact, the GTR was not a homologation version of the normal Skyline, it was just a normal Nissan model. The homologation variant was the 560 unit Nismo version released in 1990, which was basically just an aero body kit for homologation purposes. bonnet lip, bumper vents, side pods in front of rear wheels, and boot lip.

[Roy]

In fact, the GTR was not a homologation version of the normal Skyline, it was just a normal Nissan model. The homologation variant was the 560 unit Nismo version released in 1990, which was basically just an aero body kit for homologation purposes. bonnet lip, bumper vents, side pods in front of rear wheels, and boot lip.

Thats my point

Nissan built a car that would do the business in the premiere form of tin top racing. It didnt need to bring out a GTS-R with the R32 range as they built the GTR to go racing, i recall the engine was even chosen to be under 2600cc for restriction purposes. Much like how Holden changed the 308 to 304ci.

And whilst they didn’t homoloate a car like Holden did with the Grp A, BMW with the M3 etc, they still had to put forward parts for homologation such as gearboxes etc etc

[djr81]

Some random points:

The VN Group A car was not homologated with 500 cars. Holden couldn't sell the things & so ended upmaking only 300. The remainder of the good bits such as the motors went into HSV VP's.

The Sierra in its non evolution form ran in the ATCC in 1987. By the time Bathurst rolled around the 500 specials had been built & homologated. They had larger turbos & an extra rear wing, amongst other things.

All of the cars had to have a base of 5000 & then the manufacturers could offer an evolution of 500 for homologation. Best example if the VK Commode which ran in with a 308 motor in 1985 until the blue SS was built in sufficient numbers for 86. So 5000 GT-R's had to be built before the 500 (56) - Nismo versions were built. That Nissan didn't make particularly good use of this was odd, to say the least.

Maserati also homologated their Biturbo model, or tried to. Mitsubishi did the Starion, Toyota the Supra. Rover the 3500, Jaguar the XJS, Volvo the 240T, Ford the Mustang.

You could homologate parts seperate to the cars, eg the 6 speed Hollinger gearbox used in the GT-R's, or the 9" diff DJR used.

DJR's success did not rest solely with the Stone Brothers. Neil Lowe had them winning ATCC's before Ross & Jimmy came along. Also at the other end (After they left) the Dunlop tyre thing made life really hard for the EL's - then came the AU.

There was a complicated formula where engine capacity meant you had to run at a certain minimum weight & also then were allowed to run certain size tyres (2" larger in rim size than the homologated car, so GT-R's got to run 18" rims, Sierra 17's)

The attached photo is of the "world class" ATCC field in Tassie in 92. All 12 of them.

[hrd-hr30]

Thats my point

Nissan built a car that would do the business in the premiere form of tin top racing. It didnt need to bring out a GTS-R with the R32 range as they built the GTR to go racing, i recall the engine was even chosen to be under 2600cc for restriction purposes. Much like how Holden changed the 308 to 304ci.

And whilst they didn’t homoloate a car like Holden did with the Grp A, BMW with the M3 etc, they still had to put forward parts for homologation such as gearboxes etc etc

gearbox wasn't an homologated item. There were freedoms in the rules to modify/replace internal components. The GTR used a Hollinger developed box.

the 2600cc engine size didn't really come with any advantages. same max wheel width applied for 2001-2500cc as 2501-3000cc. the minumum weight was higher, but the GTR was never going to get down to that anyway, even before the ballast they had to carry. The only reason I can see that they went over 2500cc was to get into the outright category. The capacity classes were were 0-1600 cc, 1600-2500 cc and over 2500cc

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the difference between a homolation version from other manufacturers and the GTR? You can't bemoan them for building a better car - that was the name of the game! Ford did it with their RS500 - exploiting the rules they ran their homologated items on the discontinued 3dr hatch variant instead of the 4dr it was homologated on. Everyone was trying to take full advantage of the rule book, as always... Its not like Nissan only built 500 AWD big engine versions of the Skyline and called it the GTR, there was something like 40,000 of the R32 GTRs built! It was a normal Nissan model with a large scale production run, not some limited edition built 'just for racing' special model. And remember that at the time it was released most people though the AWD system wouldn't work on the track and that it would be too heavy (on brakes and tyres) to be competitive, especially in endurance events. It wasn't a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination at the time. It was a breakthrough idea for circuit racing.

[djr81]

I thought you need to include a "turbo equivalency factor" or similar. eg a 2L motor with a turbo got its capacity multiplied by 1.4 (? - from memory). So it ended up as a larger motor.

[PHaT MR30]

Bring back Group C

[hrd-hr30]

I thought you need to include a "turbo equivalency factor" or similar. eg a 2L motor with a turbo got its capacity multiplied by 1.4 (? - from memory). So it ended up as a larger motor.

d'oh. yeah you're right. I think it was 1.7 towards the end of GrpA.

[Roy]

I read there was something to Nissans selection of the 2600cc. It was the same article that was discussing how the R33 they ran at Le Mans in rwd was stroked to 2.8Ls, again so they would be making the most of the regulations.

Im not bagging Nissan or the GTR, just pointing out that Nissan were the first to actually design a car with the class of racing in mind, not takign something off the showroom floor and improving it.

LOL, still say it woudl have been interesting if they stuck true to the original GTR and the more recent R31 GTS-R

[djr81]

I would have liked DJR to have campaigned the 4WD Sierra Sapphire.

[Dim1]

i rember reading a while back a interview with fred gibson(or someone of similar status in the nissan ring) about their group A cars.(in zoom magazine_

nissan were quiet guilty of pushing the rules. in the old bluebirds if while driving they turned the key even further it would let them run more boost. Nissan were also the only people who could measure the boost restrictors... the guy in the interview pretty much suggests that they could set it to watever they pleased. there were also various other "hints of cheating" , and something about a certain button on the dash that when questioned he wouldnt even answer.

[Duncan]

lol...powerplay are selling one of the Gibson dr30s at the moment....

"Colum stalks are: wipers on the left hand and headlights/indicators on the right. But, hello, what's this? Another headlight switch low on the rigth of the dash, do I detect someone trying to be sneaky? Looking under the dash confirms it. A cable runs from the 'headlight switch' to the brake balance bar."

[Roy]

I would have liked to see me campaign "insert any car here"

[djr81]

For the group C fans, try this:

Group C had to die - there was FAR too much dodgy shit going on & far too many arguments. Peripheral port anyone?

[Sydneykid]

As someone who changed Sieraa turbos when they blew, I can tell you any similarity between qualifying and race lap times is purely coincidence. The "qualifying" turbos ran ~2.5 bar for 2 maybe 3 laps, then we would pull them off and chuck them in the bin, they were rooted.

cheers

[Roy]

Whilst we a are talking Sierras, the coolest ever was Kayne Scott’s Peanut Slab Sports Sedan Sierra.

I would so love to own this car…or if someone has any footage of it they can post. Cool Indy support race one year where he didn’t make qualifying due to storms/shipping dramas, started from the back of the grid and I think won, overtaking Carlings awesome ZED.

I love Sierras old school turbo cars actually have character, not like today’s poo boxes

[djr81]

Yeah, well I reckon the coolest car was the 81 XD from DJR.

Was the sport sedan any relation to the Whitackers Peanut Slab Group A Sierra the used to turn up at Bathurst with Gianfranco Brancatelli (or something similar)

Best turbo change story I have heard was from the 88 race when the Jones/Shiel Starion needed a new turbo which the mechanics did DURING the race. Faaark.