Interesting Bathurst Info.

[sav man]

hot potato, hot potato

[Sydneykid]

Yeah, well I reckon the coolest car was the 81 XD from DJR.

Was the sport sedan any relation to the Whitackers Peanut Slab Group A Sierra the used to turn up at Bathurst with Gianfranco Brancatelli (or something similar)

Best turbo change story I have heard was from the 88 race when the Jones/Shiel Starion needed a new turbo which the mechanics did DURING the race. Faaark.

I have changed the tubo on a Starion, the Caltex one that Colin Bond drove. Not as hard as changing the Sierra turbo, they were a bitch. At least the Starion was metric everywhere, the Sierra was A/F, Whitworth and Metric all at once.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

Im not bagging Nissan or the GTR, just pointing out that Nissan were the first to actually design a car with the class of racing in mind, not takign something off the showroom floor and improving it.

I don't think that's actually the case. The GTR is just a variant of the R32 model Skyline. I don't think you can say the Skyline was designed purely with racing in mind. It really was just another example of taking something off the showroom floor and improving it. Other manufacturers were building their versions of evolution cars in exactly the same way for Group A, its just that either AWD simply did not occur to them or, like alot of others at the time, they thought AWD would just not work, or was at least unnecesary, in a circuit racing application. The AWD GTR was a groundbreaking development in circuit racing. AWD had only been used on gravel competiton before this car. I bet you if Group A had continued, other manufacturers would have gone AWD too in their Evolution models.

I think we're both arguing the same point though - Nissan raised the bar in Group A racing with the GTR. Its just that you make it sound like that's a bad thing, or not in the "spirit" of the rules. bah!

[Roy]

LOL...they did too good a job and it did detract from the racing.

I was always a Nissan fan, as my older brother by 14 years had an R31 Silhouette when Farmer Fury was running around and i was a 10 yr old I was a Win Percy fan so backed whichever team he was driving for at the time as well, so sometimes i was a bit conflicted as to who i was supporting come Bathurst

Thinking back at least when the Sierras were doing their thing there were several teams running them, and occassionally the little M3 and DR30/R31 would give them some curry. The class wasnt a whitewash like the last few years with Skaife and Richards in the GTR. About the only interesting race i remember was a Lakeside round where Perkins and Johnson were pulling results from their asses agains the Nissans.

I will try to dig up an article i have on the R32 GTR when it was released for Touring Car racing. I think its an old issue i have of Race Car Engineering... its where i get the whole Nissan wanted to use the Grp A category to show their wares to the world.

So they designed the GTR to go Grp A racing rather then do what they had with the DR30, R31 etc which is grab a production car and tweak it...instead when penning the R32, the end goal of goign Grp A racing was a driving force, rather then an afterthought. Come time to go racing, it didnt have any of the flaws that afflicted the earlier Skyline Grp A cars.

And im not sure im right here, but im pretty sure that they had to technically submit components for homologation, so whilst the gearboxes etc were free. They still had to submit the components that they were going to run for the season????

The funny thing in hindsight is they didnt really throw the GTR into the Eurpopean series up against the Sierras and M3s where they had the most to gain.

It was still an interesting era of racing, though the fields werent as big, which was cool as the class was open to tru privateers and once a year racers at Bathurst etc

[djr81]

So have you got any good photos of the Grice/Percy GTS-R that they campaigned in Europe in 1988? I only have ever seen a couple of small ones.

As an aside if you do a compare & contrast of the front spoiler of that thing with Freddie Gibson's GTS-R you will see that someone wasn't playing by the rules......

Edited September 26, 2006 by djr81

[Roy]

Yeh the Aussie ones appear to have been spliced with a fill piece inserted to get the front lower without really affecting the obvious look of the bar. Old Larry Perkins picked it, but i dont think anything changed

[dontfeelcold]

Sandown Circuit Sprint from the Vic Dutton Rally

20 Mitchell ABRAHALL 1989 Nissan Skyline GTR B 1:20.00

79 Peter FITZGERALD 1999 Porsche GT3 D 1:20.48

66 John KAIAS 2006 Nissan Skyline GTR B 1:21.70

Considering the R32 cost way less than half of what the 2 cars it beat, and the guy driving it had never driven it before the meeting, I would say that isn't a bad effort. It will be interesting to see what he can do next year.

[Roy]

That car 66 is actually the R34 Nismo Z Tune.

[dontfeelcold]

That car 66 is actually the R34 Nismo Z Tune.

I know, makes you wonder if the guy driving it was concentrating more on racing or on the repair bill if he hit a wall

[hrd-hr30]

then came 1992, and the controversial win for the gtr. the race was called off on lap 144, just after the gtr crashed into the wall, and take back to the results at the end of lap 143. this gave the win to skaife/richards. followed by the sierra of johnson/bowe on the same lap. fastest lap of the race was the gtr, 0.2 of a second quicker than the sierra. qualifying was a different story however, with the sierra clocking 2:12.898 and the gtr 2:14.546.

so just a few facts for the people who weren't old enough to remember the gtr at bathurst or thought that nothing else even stood a chance. the gtr did get beaten, and didn't qualify the best.

just to set the record straight and clear up some of the misleading info in that post...

in 1992 the Skaife/Richards Gibson Motorsport GT-R qualified on pole with a time of 2:13.820, and was the only car in the 13's during normal qualifying.

It was in the Toohey's Top 10 shootout that the DJR Sierra who, like all other turbo cars except the Nissan, was free to run whatever boost they want, turned the wick up for the Top10 Shootout and got pole with a 2:12.893 which was the fastest ever Sierra laptime - their regulation qualifying time was 2:14.560. Skaife didn't match the car's previous qualifying pace in the shootout and dropped behind LP's Commodore, who also went a bit slower in the shootout than qualifying

The GT-R also set the fastest lap during the race with a 2:16.470. Only 1 other car managed to break into the 16's during the race, being the DJR Sierra.

The 2nd Gibson GT-R came 3rd driven by Olofsson/Crompton, and it was also the last car on the lead lap. the Longhurst M3 was the only car 1 lap behind in 4th, with Percy/Grice VP another lap behind in 5th, and a further 3 laps back to 6th place which was the troubled GIO GT-R. Not bad to have 3 GT-R's in the top 6 including the privateer entry, considering there was only 3 in the race to start with.

I'd call that a fairly dominant week for the GT-R. Fastest in qualifying. Fastest in the Race. Won the race. 2 GT-R's on the podium and 3 out of the top 6 places.

And this was after being further handicapped in the lead-up to the 1992 Bathurst, by an increase in minimum weight to 1500kg!!! To put it in perspective, their initial homologated weight was 1260kg, and the Sierra was 1185kg. The GT-R was by that stage restricted to just 1.3bar boost = 19.1psi, minus the 0.1bar they lost at Bathurst due to altitude which Gibson claimed to be worth nearly 40bhp. All the other turbo cars were free to run (and adjust) whatever boost they wanted.

All this info was from Auto Action #561 October 10, 1992 that a friend gave me yesterday!

[Roy]

Can you tell me how far behind the Crompton car was...from memory he was already on wets and not far behind DJ. If they hadnt of stopped the race you would had to of liked Neil on Wheels chances.

[djr81]

just to set the record straight and clear up some of the misleading info in that post...

in 1992 the Skaife/Richards Gibson Motorsport GT-R qualified on pole with a time of 2:13.820, and was the only car in the 13's during normal qualifying.

It was in the Toohey's Top 10 shootout that the DJR Sierra who, like all other turbo cars except the Nissan, was free to run whatever boost they want, turned the wick up for the Top10 Shootout and got pole with a 2:12.893 which was the fastest ever Sierra laptime - their regulation qualifying time was 2:14.560. Skaife didn't match the car's previous qualifying pace in the shootout and dropped behind LP's Commodore, who also went a bit slower in the shootout than qualifying

The GT-R also set the fastest lap during the race with a 2:16.470. Only 1 other car managed to break into the 16's during the race, being the DJR Sierra.

The 2nd Gibson GT-R came 3rd driven by Olofsson/Crompton, and it was also the last car on the lead lap. the Longhurst M3 was the only car 1 lap behind in 4th, with Percy/Grice VP another lap behind in 5th, and a further 3 laps back to 6th place which was the troubled GIO GT-R. Not bad to have 3 GT-R's in the top 6 including the privateer entry, considering there was only 3 in the race to start with.

I'd call that a fairly dominant week for the GT-R. Fastest in qualifying. Fastest in the Race. Won the race. 2 GT-R's on the podium and 3 out of the top 6 places.

And this was after being further handicapped in the lead-up to the 1992 Bathurst, by an increase in minimum weight to 1500kg!!! To put it in perspective, their initial homologated weight was 1260kg, and the Sierra was 1185kg. The GT-R was by that stage restricted to just 1.3bar boost = 19.1psi, minus the 0.1bar they lost at Bathurst due to altitude which Gibson claimed to be worth nearly 40bhp. All the other turbo cars were free to run (and adjust) whatever boost they wanted.

All this info was from Auto Action #561 October 10, 1992 that a friend gave me yesterday!

Bob Forbes GIO privateer car was built by Freddie Gibson's team. So it was technically a privateer, but other than running on Dunlops not Yokohamas there wasn't much difference between the cars.

The GT-R NEVER made its homologation weight. So the adjustment wasn't from 1185 kg to 1500kg. From memory it was much, much less.

The Sierra's had to run weight & rev restrictions as well. In fact all the cars had restrictions placed on them. Larry Perkins had a big dummy spit when they cut his revs down. People only focus on the GT-R but that wasn't the whole story.

They didn't lose 1 lb boost by going to higher altitudes at Bathurst. The boost limiter still ran at whatever CAMS (Actually whatever Freddie Gibson) set it at. Have a look at the interview in Zoom magazine & you will get Freddo confessing that the settings on the boost restrictor were not all that they seemed. Besides they always low balled the claimed power outputs in the press. An RB26 full of the very best of parts will put out more than the silly numbers quoted in the press. To get a sense of perspective a stock motor on 1 bar boost on the street will still put out 400hp.

I don't have the times handy, but Crompton was closing DJ down by something like 10 seconds a lap. There is a good writeup in the 1992 edition of the Great Race annual. Barring catastrophe, Crompton & his Swedish mate would have won that year had the race continued.

Oh and don't believe everything your read in Auto Fiction....

[hrd-hr30]

Bob Forbes GIO privateer car was built by Freddie Gibson's team. So it was technically a privateer, but other than running on Dunlops not Yokohamas there wasn't much difference between the cars.

that's no secret. but it was a privateer entry with all the budget limitations that it brings and lower profile drivers.

The GT-R NEVER made its homologation weight. So the adjustment wasn't from 1185 kg to 1500kg. From memory it was much, much less.

1185 was the Sierra's initial Homologation weight, not the GT-R's. At least read it properly if you are going to correct it. 1260 was the GT-R's initial homologated minimum racing weight. I didn't say the race car was exactly 1260kg when it first raced, just pointing out the difference in the minimum racing weight they had to carry -ie before fuel load!!! 1500kg + approx 100kg in fuel!!! Anyway the GT-R was definitely in the 1200 range when it first hit the track, but was very soon increased to low 1300kgs. The point is 1500kg is a damn heavy race car - period. and is over 200kg heavier than it started out.

The Sierra's had to run weight & rev restrictions as well. In fact all the cars had restrictions placed on them. Larry Perkins had a big dummy spit when they cut his revs down. People only focus on the GT-R but that wasn't the whole story.

actually the Sierra in 1992 had minimum weith reduced to just 1100kg! and got a 6spd box and bigger wheel/tyre allowed! LP and the other Commodores also had weight adjustments to allow them to run lighter. And were allowed freedoms to modify inner wheel arches to allow bigger wheels/tyres to be fitted! get your story right!

They didn't lose 1 lb boost by going to higher altitudes at Bathurst. The boost limiter still ran at whatever CAMS (Actually whatever Freddie Gibson) set it at. Have a look at the interview in Zoom magazine & you will get Freddo confessing that the settings on the boost restrictor were not all that they seemed.

they lost 0.1 bar=1.5psi. the pop-off valve that limited boost had to be calibrated in the presence of CAMS and was done pretty much at sea level. Gibson applied to CAMS for a correction to the boost for Bathurst due to the losses that other unlimited turbo cars did not suffer from, but the application was rejected.

Besides they always low balled the claimed power outputs in the press. An RB26 full of the very best of parts will put out more than the silly numbers quoted in the press. To get a sense of perspective a stock motor on 1 bar boost on the street will still put out 400hp.

from memory they were claiming something like 550-560bhp in that 92 Bathurst spec. at 1.2 bar and given the turbo technology they were running I don't think that's unrealistic. then you can compare their straight line speed to the other cars on the track too - seems about right to me.

I don't have the times handy, but Crompton was closing DJ down by something like 10 seconds a lap. There is a good writeup in the 1992 edition of the Great Race annual. Barring catastrophe, Crompton & his Swedish mate would have won that year had the race continued.

Oh and don't believe everything your read in Auto Fiction....

its certainly no less credible than zoom articles written 13 years later. and alot more credible than some of the totally incorrect info you've got there.

[djr81]

that's no secret. but it was a privateer entry with all the budget limitations that it brings and lower profile drivers.

1185 was the Sierra's initial Homologation weight, not the GT-R's. At least read it properly if you are going to correct it. 1260 was the GT-R's initial homologated minimum racing weight. I didn't say the race car was exactly 1260kg when it first raced, just pointing out the difference in the minimum racing weight they had to carry -ie before fuel load!!! 1500kg + approx 100kg in fuel!!! Anyway the GT-R was definitely in the 1200 range when it first hit the track, but was very soon increased to low 1300kgs. The point is 1500kg is a damn heavy race car - period. and is over 200kg heavier than it started out.

actually the Sierra in 1992 had minimum weith reduced to just 1100kg! and got a 6spd box and bigger wheel/tyre allowed! LP and the other Commodores also had weight adjustments to allow them to run lighter. And were allowed freedoms to modify inner wheel arches to allow bigger wheels/tyres to be fitted! get your story right!

they lost 0.1 bar=1.5psi. the pop-off valve that limited boost had to be calibrated in the presence of CAMS and was done pretty much at sea level. Gibson applied to CAMS for a correction to the boost for Bathurst due to the losses that other unlimited turbo cars did not suffer from, but the application was rejected.

from memory they were claiming something like 550-560bhp in that 92 Bathurst spec. at 1.2 bar and given the turbo technology they were running I don't think that's unrealistic. then you can compare their straight line speed to the other cars on the track too - seems about right to me.

its certainly no less credible than zoom articles written 13 years later. and alot more credible than some of the totally incorrect info you've got there.

HRD hr30 -please don't get upset, no one is trying to decry the technical or racing achievements of Gibson motorsport or is having a go at you.

I was simply pointing out the following:

That the GIO car was a well funded privateer effort who's major constraint was said to tbe that Dunlop wouldn't give them the very best of their tyres for fear of info leaking across to Yokohama - atleast that was what was said at the time. Mark Gibbs was a good steerer, maybe not at Richo's level, but good all the same.

When the word privateer is used people tend to think of a busted arse outfit operating a VL Commodore out of the back of a trailer. Or Gary Wilmington. Or similar.

Yep, sorry a typo. The weight as you said was 1260kg. I was just trying to point out that the weight penalty wasn't as bad as the change from 1260kg homologation (Was that current in 91, because I thought it had already been changed by then?) & the 1500kg listed. 1500kg is a lard arse track car, whichever way you look at it.

The weight/rev/boost/tyre changes were a parity adjustment. But as ever someone will always whinge when such things are done. A good example of this was the way Allan Moffat used to operate in the old group C days.

The point I was trying to make with regard to articles written at the time & those written years later is that people tend to mellow & be a bit more truthful in their old age. Some of Freddos confessions in the Zoom interview make for interesting reading.

Alot of people refer to Auto Action as Auto Fiction, me included. But I still buy it every week.

[gtr660hp]

Ha ha 2:13:820 pole time- Id forgotten that-a lot of peeps bag the V8SC's, but a 2:06 from Murphy in 2003 makes the old GTR look kinda slow and race pace last sunday was dipping into the 2:08's (when did the chase come on line-1987??)

Edited October 10, 2006 by gtr660hp

[sav man]

The chase came in, in 1987. I think the Bluebird had the old track record

[hrd-hr30]

Ha ha 2:13:820 pole time- Id forgotten that-a lot of peeps bag the V8SC's, but a 2:06 from Murphy in 2003 makes the old GTR look kinda slow and race pace last sunday was dipping into the 2:08's (when did the chase come on line-1987??)

after 14 years of developing the same car without being limited by production suspension pickup points and design, with massive aero kits, 620ish bhp and 1350kg - mor epower and less weight than the GTR was restricted to, I don't think 1.1sec per km faster is all that impressive. Take the boost limit off, and drop all the ballast from the GTR and put it on latest tyre technology and see what it can do!

even that isn't a fair comparison - imagine what times GTR's would be doing after 14years of development like the Supercabs have had! Picture an R34 GTR with a massive aero kit, full spaceframe chassis stuffed inside its body with the only real engine restriction being a rev limit... then it would be a fair comparison.

Edited October 10, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[Beer Baron]

yep, or bring out the natural evoltion. the 2003 JGTC R34 GTR. i would reckon it would give the 2:06 a shake up. hell for old times sake slot skaiffe or richo behind the wheel. and hey, they JGTC car has *gasp restrictors on it too so only putting out around 500hp. drop those off it and give it around 650-700hp then we would really see a fast, late model touring car!

[gtr660hp]

after 14 years of developing the same car without being limited by production suspension pickup points and design, with massive aero kits, 620ish bhp and 1350kg - mor epower and less weight than the GTR was restricted to, I don't think 1.1sec per km faster is all that impressive. Take the boost limit off, and drop all the ballast from the GTR and put it on latest tyre technology and see what it can do!

I have a Fujitsu V8SC car and let me tell you we are very limited in many areas also---live rear axles for fk sake and 10:1 comp ratio, 7500 limiter, in a 5 Litre pushrod V8 on 98 pump fuel. 2 wheel drive with shty little 280/680 17 in slicks and the cars are closer 1500kg with fuel and driver-so our 'Taxis' still arnt bad for what they are especially compared to 'mighty' GTR -I have a track 32GTR and cant hold a candle to the 2007 Carrera cup car( mate of mine has 2 and leaves me eating dust at the track )-they lap 2:11 at Bathurst which is awesome for a 3.6l NA 400hp car-still say it makes the GTR rather slow looking (I know 1992 is a long time ago but lets face it the GTR is old technolgy now compared to these new German rockets)

and saying lets strip out the GTR blah blah - well if thats your logic lets strip my V8 down to 1100kg and ill strap on 2 turbos if you want a level playing field

Edited October 10, 2006 by gtr660hp

[Sydneykid]

Ha ha 2:13:820 pole time- Id forgotten that-a lot of peeps bag the V8SC's, but a 2:06 from Murphy in 2003 makes the old GTR look kinda slow and race pace last sunday was dipping into the 2:08's (when did the chase come on line-1987??)

The R32GTR race record for the 1,000 ks' still stands.

cheers