Banning Performance Cars From P Platers = More Deaths

[Modena]

exxxactly. what the government fails to see when they implement blanket bans, is that sports/performance cars also have upgraded safety features to deal with what the car is capable of. sure skylines, silvias, supras etc are high powered cars and can do 0-100 quicker than an average commo etc... but the safety features in them far outtweigh compared to falcons, commodores n shit.

i'd rather be in my car, knowing there is safety features to deal with sketchy situations compared to something else.

I dunno about you buy I feel much safer in a big Falcon or a Commodore with ABS brakes and two air bags at the front surrounded by chunky metal than being in a Silvia/Rx7/Mr2 or any other little Japanese car. Heck my Skyline isnt that safe either.

Ive already had a Corolla slam into the back of me doing over 90 KM/h while I was in a VS commodore wagon a few years ago and I walked away with a mild whiplash and the car itself was repaired. I doubt I would of been so lucky if I was in a little Japanese sports car... I can tell you now my Skyline would of been a write off.

I dont know if you pay much attention to safety reviews of cars but such cars as Silvia (s15 included), 300xz, Rx7 and other similar low sports cars are amongst the unsafest on the streets as far as collisions go. I much rather be in a commodre or a falcon if some dickhead in a 4wd drives to T bone me.

Having said that, yes a Silvia or a Skyline will be much easier to control in speeds of excess 100 +KM/h... but then again they are sports cars designed for faster speeds than a regular family sedan/wagon.

[mad082]

sir-d has a point there. the big aussie cars are made out of decent amounts of metal, and have a decent amount of room between you and the side of the car, and you and the front of the bonnet.

[Big Rizza]

I only really skimmed this thread, but I will make a point by quoting good old Wikipedia:

Road-traffic crashes are as old as the roads themselves. Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot crashed his steam-powered "Fardier" against a wall in 1770. Amongst the earliest recorded motor vehicle accident fatalities were Mary Ward who died after being thrown from an experimental steam car on August 31, 1869 in Parsonstown, Ireland, and Bridget Driscoll who was hit by a car on August 17, 1896 in London.

I guarentee that those cars were signifficantly underpowered compared to the cars of today. People will die no matter what they drive.

I think a better government tactic would be to ban cars over 10 years old. Had those people had modern passive safety equipment (airbags, seatbelts, etc), they probably would have survived. And with modern active safety (ABS, stability control, decent tyres, modern suspension, etc) the accident probably wouldn't have even happened in the first place. For a politician to suggest this plan would career suicide, and it would be totally uneconomical and impractical, but the safety and environmental benefits (from an emissions standpoint anyways - we'll ignore the landfills of abandoned 10 year old cars) would be far greater than the equivalent benefits obtained from lowering the average P-Plater's power output.

Maybe the government should have a first car-buyers grant to subsidise P-Platers so they can afford the newest/safest car they can? It would probably save more lives than capping power outputs...

[predator]

It seems like a simple fix that driver aides will stop accidents, as the car is taking over from the human element. That seems to be the latest magic fix. But I don't think in most cases it would. They've had ABS in cars for years, airbags, etc - even a "budget" car often has them these days. But that doesn't necessarily stop people having accidents or fatal ones.

Subsidising cars for p-platers would cost the government billions, I don't think it's feasible.

[Munna1]

If you where in a dangerous situation where you had to avoid an accident which car would you rather be in? a skyline? or an old VN commodore? hmm

There are 2 ways to look at this a performance car will obviously stop, handle, and go quicker than a ordinary car. But does this encourage the young driver to drive the car to its limits? Do performance cars encourage this hoonish behavior? The government obviously thinks so.

But I and I am sure many others look at it differently, I think if they are going to do this they will do it anyway regardless of the car. Better driver education is what’s needed not bands and restrictions.

Imagine if it where compulsory for everyone to do an advanced drivers course, teach a person how to handle a car and how easy and unpredictable a car can be in wet conditions etc. I think this should become a compulsory part of getting your license. Once these gunna be hoons get on a skid pan in the wet and realize how easy it is to loose control maybe they will realize they are not racecar drivers, and think twice before trying it on the street.

Another thing that gets me is car safety, watch rally cars they race in extremely dangerous conditions, they can crash into trees roll several times and often the drivers get out without a scratch. Why not make it compulsory to have roll cages and much bigger brakes on all cars.

Trucks cause many of our accidents on country roads with truck drivers falling to sleep etc. When I drive from Horsham to Melbourne there are just as many trucks as there is cars. Get the trucks off the roads use the rail system.

But no its much easier and less expensive for the government to put penalties on drivers fine them for driving 2km per hour over the limit. The government gets to say they are making an effort plus they raise more revenue at the same time. What a joke.

That’s my rant for today.

[JUN`R32]

well said munna1

the government dont give 2 dams about the "right" soluton, they just want a band aid short term public pleasing solution, which will last a short time, hence the new report on the 37% increase in deaths....

cops can pull young people over and fine them for driving like hoons, fair enough, but wen it comes to safety before the fool gets in the car, they dont give a dam....... as long as they get there cash for speeding fines, they culdnt care less.

the learner tests have stupid questions, which half people forget once they leave anyway

the p test is a joke, the instructor does wat, turn here, turn there, drive there, park here....ok your done

yep u passed, now pay us $80 (or wateva it is) for the license and see ya.

how easy is it to drive normal for 20min and then once u gain ur p's to drive like a madman

i think driver training is one of the keys to solve this issue, but that will cost the government heaps, if not it wuld cost the public heaps ie taxes or cost of getting license will be higher, and im sure alot of people wuldnt want that, either way it has to be done.

Driver training is sooo important these days, not banning high powered cars, the hoons will only think there "tough" by breaking the law and driving a quick car to impress gurls or who ever, this then causing them to be hoons,

Ok enough i been going on for ages lol

everyone here has a right mind and thats sooo good too see that soo many skylines are owned by well educated and road safety aware individuals.....

[Big Rizza]

If you where in a dangerous situation where you had to avoid an accident which car would you rather be in? a skyline? or an old VN commodore? hmm

There are 2 ways to look at this a performance car will obviously stop, handle, and go quicker than a ordinary car. But does this encourage the young driver to drive the car to its limits? Do performance cars encourage this hoonish behavior? The government obviously thinks so.

But I and I am sure many others look at it differently, I think if they are going to do this they will do it anyway regardless of the car. Better driver education is what’s needed not bands and restrictions.

Imagine if it where compulsory for everyone to do an advanced drivers course, teach a person how to handle a car and how easy and unpredictable a car can be in wet conditions etc. I think this should become a compulsory part of getting your license. Once these gunna be hoons get on a skid pan in the wet and realize how easy it is to loose control maybe they will realize they are not racecar drivers, and think twice before trying it on the street.

Another thing that gets me is car safety, watch rally cars they race in extremely dangerous conditions, they can crash into trees roll several times and often the drivers get out without a scratch. Why not make it compulsory to have roll cages and much bigger brakes on all cars.

Trucks cause many of our accidents on country roads with truck drivers falling to sleep etc. When I drive from Horsham to Melbourne there are just as many trucks as there is cars. Get the trucks off the roads use the rail system.

But no its much easier and less expensive for the government to put penalties on drivers fine them for driving 2km per hour over the limit. The government gets to say they are making an effort plus they raise more revenue at the same time. What a joke.

That’s my rant for today.

As far as advanced driver training is concerned, I absolutely agree that it should be a requirement. The problem is, the government won't see the light. The NSW government has stated that they have no evidence showing that training in simulated environments reduces the risk of accidents in the real world. This from the government that introduced the "Hazard Perception Test." Playing Gran Theft Auto would have more benefit than that "test." What a joke. Other governments have stated that advanced training leads to overconfident drivers that are to eager to explore the limits of their cars on public roads.

But I dunno about the comment on trucks. Here in WA we have bigger, heavier and longer trucks travelling greater distances than anywhere else in Australia. And here, trucks cause far fewer accidents than cars do (both in percentage and absolute terms). And with the fatigue management laws, drivers falling asleep at the wheel is pretty much a thing of the past. In fact, the most recent road-train accident I heard of was tourists falling asleep at the wheel and colliding head on with the truck - hardly the trucks fault. The use of trains rather than trucks is highly uneconomical and completely unfeasable for most of the state. And the emissions per tonne of cargo for a road-train is less than for a rail-train, and they use existing roads (so no cutting up of the country side for railways) so there are environmental gains too.

The biggest problem with trucks is just how visible they are - in the rare occasion that accidents do occur, they make a biiiiiiiig mess...

I've wondered about roll cages for a while myself. With such an emphasis on crash safety in cars, why haven't they been included? Cost? Or is there some other underlying factor? An overly rigid chassis killing the effect of any crumple zones? Dunno...

Edited September 25, 2006 by Big Rizza

[JUN`R32]

yehh roll cages...

ive always wondered why there illegal :S :S :S

[Modena]

yehh roll cages...

ive always wondered why there illegal :S :S :S

"Hoon" image... haha im actually serious.

[gibbau]

thats a better way to deter them. show them a person in their early 20's that is servely messed up due to a crash.

I have had my lisence for around a year or so now, and around a month after i got it, i recieved a dvd in the mail from the government, which was full of car accidents and interviews with people who now can't eat or speak for themselves, or have lost limbs etc.

at least they are trying....

zac

[fr0st]

'Mr Stoner' is a idiot, I dout he has half the intelligence of an average 'high powered' car driver.

Cars don't make mistakes, drivers do.

If a car is well maintained, asside from a freak high speed blowout, nothing should go wrong. Alot of young people who drive import love them to death, myself included. How many people driving shitboxs bother to change the tyres and brake pads when they should?

I'd say pretty much everyone on this forum loves there cars (in a very non sexual way). As a result there alot better maintained than your average family car. If your interested in your car you take good care of it, alot of high performance car owners would fall into this category.

I agree completly with driver training, I got my advanced driving training as a birthday present (I asked for it) and I'm doing a skidpan training day this week out of my own pocket. Driving with most of my mates scares the shit out of me, they have no idea how close they come to killing themselves or losing control. A part of being a good driving is knowing the limits of your car, since you have to pay a fair bit for driving training where do you think poor uni student P platers are going to test themselves?

P platers are always going to want to find the limits of there car and until the government comes up with a decent solution, shit is always going to happen on public roads. I'd love to take my car to the drags, but being a 19 yr old uni student, I can't afford it.

[Modena]

'Mr Stoner' is a idiot, I dout he has half the intelligence of an average 'high powered' car driver.

Cars don't make mistakes, drivers do.

If a car is well maintained, asside from a freak high speed blowout, nothing should go wrong. Alot of young people who drive import love them to death, myself included. How many people driving shitboxs bother to change the tyres and brake pads when they should?

I'd say pretty much everyone on this forum loves there cars (in a very non sexual way). As a result there alot better maintained than your average family car. If your interested in your car you take good care of it, alot of high performance car owners would fall into this category.

I agree completly with driver training, I got my advanced driving training as a birthday present (I asked for it) and I'm doing a skidpan training day this week out of my own pocket. Driving with most of my mates scares the shit out of me, they have no idea how close they come to killing themselves or losing control. A part of being a good driving is knowing the limits of your car, since you have to pay a fair bit for driving training where do you think poor uni student P platers are going to test themselves?

P platers are always going to want to find the limits of there car and until the government comes up with a decent solution, shit is always going to happen on public roads. I'd love to take my car to the drags, but being a 19 yr old uni student, I can't afford it.

Great post... i spend way too much time and money on my car... im actually excited when I change the oil and other bits in it...

[nato_wp]

how easy is it to drive normal for 20min and then once u gain ur p's to drive like a madman

So true. When I was on my L's I used to drive quite hard (near to my ability limits) with my parents in the car (I live in the Adelaide hills), but when I drove for the lessons in the instructor's car it was a nice sunday meander. (except on two occasions:

#1 - the country drive - my instructor also lived in the hills, so my drive was on the nice back roads of the hills, he told me 'You may go as fast as you like, as long as you are in control of the car.', but even then I only wound it up on the longest of the straights.

#2 - my final drive - the instructor's car had a touchy accelerator, and was quite nippy, I just settled into enjoying the drive a little too much and waiting until well after 3000rpm before changing, once I realised what I was doing I quickly stopped though!

Please don't get me wrong though, I do not consider that I drive in a way that is unsafe to others. I never drive more than 10% more than the speed limit in populated areas, or if anyone else is in the car. I don't do burnouts, drive on the wrong side of the road while pushing it, etc.

My only accident I have treated as an immense learning experience, I had entered a S-corner at the same speed as I would in the dry, (estimated at twice the posted suggested speed) late one night in the wet, the rear came well and truly out. I corrected, the rear switched sides, and as I drifted across the lanes a taxi came around the blind corner and locked its brakes. Instinct caused me to do the same, and I slid along his drivers side. No one was physically hurt.

However I now drive with a huge amount of respect for the driving conditions. I would like to attend an advanced driving course, however I can't afford to as of yet.

So, in my opinion, the best thing that the government can do is provide/require more experience for drivers before letting them loose on the roads. Probably the most intelligent thing they have done in SA is to require a minimum of 50hrs of driving on L's, with 10 at night. More similar requirements can only help.

Edited September 25, 2006 by nato_wp

[Kinks]

yehh roll cages...

ive always wondered why there illegal :S :S :S

makes the car too rigid. if you hit the cage with your head you're a goner. The only time a cage would be worthwhile is if you wore a helmet and had a racing seat and racing harness and were tightly strapped in. Which isn't going to happen on the street.

[dreaminofmyr34]

Hey guys, long time reader but i only recently joined. i'm not sure if this has already being mentioned but i'm sure safety of the car and driver training is very important, however the role of the parents are often forgetten in all this debating.

I'm pretty sure most of us are taught by our father/mother on how to drive in the family car and in nsw the rta only requires you to do a mininum of 60 hours of driving to sit for ur p's, and then i've known a few people who actually faked the hours so they could get their licence sooner.

Anyway back to my point i think parents should take a more active role in teaching their kids how to drive rather than help them make up the hours on sunday morning when its perfectly sunny and the roads are quiet, for example when i was learning how to drive my dad didn't care about how many hours i did but rather how comfortable he was with me behind the wheel. i was basically driving for 6+ hours a week for about a year(got my L's at 16).

The most important thing is that he made me drive in all different kinds of road conditions. I'm only using this as an example but on many occasions when it was raining heavly, he would make me go driving with him, i thought at the time he was just being lazy and needed some one to drive but now i realised that he made me drive to experience different conditions that i would face on my own and because he was next to me , he was able to give me tips on what he would do in that situation and possibly how to avoid it. I have to admit that alot of the things that he said didn't make any sense to me when i was 16 but now (22) it makes a whole lot of sense.

So the point of all this is that parents are as important as defence driver training and all the other stuff that gets mentioned all the time.

end of rant..........back to dreaming of my r34

[fr0st]

snip

60 hours is alot of driving, the fuel alone would put alot of parents off. I did 25 and that was bad enough.

IMO you'd learn alot more in an hour on a skid pan than 60 hours on the road. You wouldn't develop any road awareness but your car control would be greatly improved. Theres alot of things you can't practice on public roads and thats why alot of people get themselves into trouble.

For example, Dad tells Johny Commodore that his car can't corner at 60km/h in the wet so he should never do it as opposed to Johny being told by an instructor to try and corner at 60km/h on a wet skid pan.

The latter would scare the shit out of him and I bet he'd never try it again but if his dad told him not to he'd probably try it anyway on a public road.

The hours just develops road awareness which is always a good thing, but with your parents in the car your also getting there bad habbits. Both my parents struggled to teach me to drive because they didn't know how, it was just habbit to them. They just kind of sat there and pulled me up on obvious mistakes while I learned for myself. I did driving lessons which sole focus is to stop you breaking the law so you can pass your driving test, its not about avoiding colisions and controlling your car.

The government is just throwing shit and hoping some sticks, if they spent half the time conduction driver training as they did policing speeding we'd be far safer drivers.

[Big Rizza]

News report for those with interest:

THE number of P-plate drivers killed on NSW roads has doubled this year, suggesting the State Government's laws to save young lives have failed.

Official Australian Transport Safety Bureau data shows 26 P-plate drivers have died in road crashes in NSW up to the beginning of August.

This is twice the number killed in the same period last year, and already exceeds the total P-plate driver death toll for 2005.

The alarming figures are a wake-up call for the Government, which last year introduced restrictions on young drivers to reduce the road toll.

Roads Minister Eric Roozendaal said yesterday he would consider a fresh package of measures, including an increase in mandatory log-book hours for learners from 50 to 130 hours, with 15 hours of night driving.

"The NSW Government has made significant changes to the rules for P-plate drivers, but I am always open to more suggestions,'' Mr Roozendaal said.

Last year, the Government banned P-platers from driving high-powered cars and from carrying multiple passengers if they had committed a serious driving offence, but it rejected tougher measures such as a night curfew.

Since those restrictions came into force in July, 2005, there has been a 37 per cent rise in the number of 17- to 20-year-old drivers killed on the roads, the official data reveals.

The NRMA is calling for the State Government to make a review of the legislation public and to examine other measures to prevent P-plater deaths.

"It's a tragedy that P-platers are dying at twice the rate they were last year,'' NRMA Motoring and Services chief executive Tony Stuart said.

"Most of the young deaths on our roads can be prevented.''

Mr Stuart said many of the high-powered vehicles banned by the State Government had been ranked among the safest by the Australian New Car Assessment Program.

Aside from young drivers, the RTA figures show the overall number of under-25s - passengers, drivers and pedestrians - killed in road accidents has dramatically increased at a time when death rates in other age categories are static or falling.

The number killed is up 33 per cent this year compared to 2005.

Mr Roozendaal said yesterday the underlying trend over the longer term showed a noticeable decline in deaths.

"I am concerned that people are not getting the message and slowing down,'' he said.

"Road rules are constantly being reviewed, but the Government can't be behind the wheel of every car.''

Opposition police spokesman Michael Gallacher called for a summit to investigate better ways to prevent the carnage on the State's roads.

"It's worth looking at reducing the number of passengers in cars driven by P-platers and whether defensive driving courses should be an essential criterion,'' he said.

Other Australian states have tougher restrictions on P-platers than NSW.

Western Australia has introduced measures banning young drivers from driving at night for six months after they are issued with licences.

[dangerous_daveo]

Haha, what a joke.

They dont expect people to learn how to read, write, and add up without getting taught how to. So how in gods name do they expect people to be able to drive. 50hours or even 130hours wont help, it will just give them more time to pick up bad habits.

Which is why parents teaching their kids is such a bad idea. The parents most of the time have NO idea. Everytime we can pick the kids who have been trained by either their parents, or even old school trained driving instructors. They get messed up, and I have to go fix up road cones. They pick up very bad habits.

Banning nite driving wont help either. If little johnny has a car, little johnny needs a job after school, which wont finish until 9-10pm. So little johnnys parents have to go pick him up! WTF ARE THEY THINKING!!! And just bringing the age back to say, well 25yo. That wont work either, it will just mean older people will die from being stupid. It wont be out of their system. That or they will just drive anyway.

And with the whole sticky situation thing, once again comes back to the training. If you get taught you can see ahead and work out whats going to happen, and do something to avoid it with ease. Just not get in to a skid in the first place.

But hey, people are stupid.

[Roy]

Another driver training thread. I would love to know the number of forum folk that have actually sat a drivers course?

Secondly, i dont care if you learn how to control a skid or a slide. What the hell are you letting yourself get into the situation where you need to be able to control a slide in the first place.

Many of my mates dont give a rats ass about cars. They are alive and never been involved in an accident drivers because they use cars as a means of transport and drive within the limits of the car, the limits of the law which is a easily within the limits of the driver.

Odds are, all the driver training in the world is unlikley to help you when its a wet night, a unicorn jumps into the middle of the road and you have to swerve and stop the car. Is it really goign to be instinct? Not me. I need acr with ESP and ABS, then im a chance

Its a good start, ppl need to know how to drive a car. But in reality to adjust ppls attitude we all need a lobotomy, or we need to be parents with a few 3yr olds running around before you give us a licence.

[Bliksem]

News report for those with interest:

Mr Stuart said many of the high-powered vehicles banned by the State Government had been ranked among the safest by the Australian New Car Assessment Program.

Love that bit.

whether defensive driving courses should be an essential criterion,'' he said.

Sounds like some of them have their head skrewed on anyways.

Edited September 25, 2006 by MintR33