Banning Performance Cars From P Platers = More Deaths

[MK2]

Statistics are basically the numerical equivalent of punching the opposition in the head when the ref is looking somewhere else, theyre the great big mathematical 'fudge' that people fiddle with too prove something out with only a passing relevance too hard facts.

Hard facts are things like P-Platers making up bugger all of the larger driving population and saying that a larger percentage of them dying is in the process of cutting percentages in half and then making that figure look comparatively huge in the greater scheme of things.

A more rubbery fact is the government simply does not give a f**k.

Pay your fees, rego, insurance, petrol tax and fines and leave us all alone, they dont want to know about you dying unless its politically expedient to get votes around the silly season up too an election. Like last year over xmas we had the entire country-

83 people die on the roads, 21 of them in NSW

1 person in Qld gets bitten to death by a shark

NSW government holds a shark attack forum for the holiday period to make sure we dont get bitten to death...

Heres a hint

Youre chances of being bitten to death by pretty much anything running around in the wild is so f**king remote, its really not worth worrying about! You have a better chance of being beaten to death in your own living room by someone you know or mauled by a pet dog and bleed to death than being bitten by something swimming around in the ocean and dying from it.

Why have a shark attack forum instead of a road toll forum?

Same reason you wouldnt bet on a 3 legged greyhound in a race and why you'd bet on the other greyhound that just killed the favorite to win in the race and the other runners are cowering in the stalls not willing to go f**king anywhere!

Car accident, people die, we hear that all the time, so what.

Shark attack, holy shit! we dont hear much of that, lucky the good ol government is out there making sure I dont get my arse bitten off down at the beach. Even though I dont go there, good on em looking out for us ay! Well paint me with artificial tan and f**k me stupid, dont I feel safer already that some dickslapper who won a popularity contest thinks we should be protected from angry fish.

Hard fact

Backing any kind of road safety campaign when youre a politician is a lost cause.

Not only are you trying too stop people dying who you dont really care about but you've also got all these other factors coming in to make it all messed up at the end of the period.

-People cannot drive worth a damn

-Shit happens, sometimes you just get plain unlucky and die in several tons of vehicle moving at speed

-Drivers education costs money, which can be better spent on political perks and pockets

-Fines, which scare people into looking at the speedo more than the road are easier than any kind of training and it also makes you money

-Blame young people, firstly theyre a minority so they cant fight back, too apathetic to fight back and no one over 40 (which makes up the largest voting lump of the population) likes young people theyre noisy, daft and listen too funny music too loud. They must be to blame for all the worlds woes, so beat on them a bit more all the oldies love that shit, damn young people...

-Blame a minority group for not speaking english and the fact they got their licence for driving a water buffalo around a rice paddy after bribing the local equivalent of the RTA with some home made hooch and fifty peso's. Not only do you get the good ol' race vote shit happening, with some un-Australian hatin' makes you popular when youre a politician, especially if its federal because all the people hiding behind cloaked racism can vote without fear of being burnt by the more liberal minded.

-Blame the RTA for not fixing the roads, in the meantime spend some more of that fine money on building a road to no where, then sell it to some 'funny furriners' that aint from around these parts and make a bundle. If anyone wants to have a hatin' about the road tolls, they can blame the investers from overseas who are faceless and far away, but most importantly, far away from you.

-Stupidity, the capacity for human stupidity is endless and there really is no point in trying to fight stupidity because it comes in infinate amounts and genius comes in molecules which could fit on a pin head, chances are youre not a genious so stop trying to aspire to great heights.

I'm sorry, but any politician backing the 'Stop the Road deaths' to get anywhere in this country is kicking shit up hill from day one, its loser talk.

Somewhere, someone is loading up a car full of 17-18 year olds and its gunna lead too tears after their untrained, underskilled selves decide too take a risk, because risks are fun and it makes you look tough in front of the chicks and your mates. Sometimes it ends up with tears, sometimes it ends up with dead shitheads being peeled off the road by some poor ambo or emergency services guy just too really turn him off eating steak later on.

So not are we going up against-

Gutless politicians

Stupid citizens

No interest in education

No chance of anything happening because people think it will violate the politically correct law of 'I can do the f**k what I want in this country because god damnit I'm a sentient monkey with thumbs and horsepower'

That law might not be written anywhere but no one is ever going to damn well touch it because it gives everyone the shits and in this case of road deaths, everyone is to blame. It's all well and good to think, well its only natural selection getting rid of the weak, slow and stupid because we lack large amounts of bitey animals too kill them off, but until it comes down too you, someone you love or someone you even like being wiped out by some under-trained knob end on the road, its just all fun, games, news and statistics.

/rant off

Edited September 29, 2006 by MK2

[eMsta]

Another driver training thread. I would love to know the number of forum folk that have actually sat a drivers course?

Actually, Im gonna book myself in for one end of this year/early next year. I wont deny it, I have almost lost control of my car a couple of times since i bought it in feb - and just today some chic in a barina was instigating me for a bit of a race. Me thinks that driver training should be made mandatory - cos im sure a lot of first timers will lose control of their car at the training itself - maybe it might scare them enough not to hoon after that....

[dangerous_daveo]

Actually, Im gonna book myself in for one end of this year/early next year. I wont deny it, I have almost lost control of my car a couple of times since i bought it in feb - and just today some chic in a barina was instigating me for a bit of a race. Me thinks that driver training should be made mandatory - cos im sure a lot of first timers will lose control of their car at the training itself - maybe it might scare them enough not to hoon after that....

Dude, its your life hey. Just get in asap! Dont leave it to next year if you can avoid it. But yeah, I know I let the ones that think they can go for it, I complment them on what they are doing right, knowing they will make a mistake then BAM! When they make it I smash their confidence, and they drive sooo slow after that around our little track.

But there is no teaching some people... One guy had a BIG acco a few years back, got his licence back after it, decided to do the course hoping he would not crash again, did ok in most things, not as good as he thought he would... Then left doing a nice one wheeler... Just no hope for some.

But yeah, post before hit the nail on the head. Ps at 17, voting starts at 18... They dont give a toss damn pollys.

[simpletool]

Well I've only ever seen stats that say driver training does work (ie. reduce deaths/serious accidents), I've never seen stats that say driver training increases accidents/deaths.

Soo...........does anyone have any evidence at all that driver training increases deaths/accidents? Can you post that here ??? otherwise shut the f*ck up.

Clearly getting a licence is way too easy (at least here in QLD), almost no training at all for how to use the most complicated and dangerous device most people will ever use. When there are other countries that give a lot of driver training. (Germany/Austria are 2 that spring to mind as good examples)

Why can't we make it at the cost of the person who wants to get a licence? And there's plenty of money for subsidies. Truly there is.

And raise some speed limits while they're at it.

[Roy]

Dude, its your life hey. Just get in asap! Dont leave it to next year if you can avoid it. But yeah, I know I let the ones that think they can go for it, I complment them on what they are doing right, knowing they will make a mistake then BAM! When they make it I smash their confidence, and they drive sooo slow after that around our little track.

That jogs my memory of a lift i gace someone. A car (dont remember) pulled up alongside us. Friend said this guy wants to have a go. I looked and he was giving me "the look". LOL i sat there, he started reving it up, i sat there. Lights went green he was gone. I grabbed first gear and left how i leave most sets of lights.

My friend was giving me sh1t, your car is quicker (actually i think it was a GSR Lanser, and lol it was probably quicker) . I explained i dont really care that its wuicker. And personally dont want t o even encourage the guy. I know if i was doign 160km/h and hit a rise/crest in the road and the car became unsettled i would probably lose the car and RIP Roy. Now my concern is, i dont knwo the ability of the other guy. By encouraging a race i could be helping that guy prang his car or harm himself. Like that school prank where someone got hurt. Rather not be in that position thanks. What do you get for funning such a big risk????

[sky high]

iam a p plater atm but iam 2 months off

i have had no crashes of any kind

only little sh###ts being c??ts on the road and almost killing them selfs

when you travel a average 800km a week in a ford you learn how to control a car

any way

it all to do with who has teached the kid how to drive

i dont know how some of them get there P's

the testers must be slack

thanks people

[Edge]

This is serious, safety driver training requiring a serious attitude to public responsibility to get your licence is the only way to go and must start at 14yo not later.

High powered cars reduce speeding! Has anyone actually compared statistics to show that high powered cars speed more?

I always found that if you have an underpowered car you tend to speed more because instead of slowing down

for intersections, pedestrians and other risky situations etc., you take risks in order to maintain your speed because its such a pain waiting to regain speed again.

The law is currently a political victimisation of minorities who own imported performance cars, and has obviously had a negative effect on safety in reality,

it helps with justification of the highway robbery of speed cameras and the false argument that speed kills.

What should be happening is government spending in driver safety training courses, instead of revenue raising justification.

YOUNG DRIVERS TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING

CALL ON POLITICIANS TO START BEING SOCIALLY MINDED

Edited September 30, 2006 by Edge

[Edge]

Read some more of the posts on here so I would like to seperately add that legislating the car doesn't help, it all comes down to driving well within the cars limits, but also knowing the limits of the car (whichever you are in and each car is different).

Training helps you understand the true limits of a car and how to handle it when they are exceeded as well as comprehend the value of staying well within the limits to give increased safety margin. After all accidents happen when the capability to handle a situation is exceeded (expected or not).

Experience helps with the comprehansion of unexpected situations which lead to you adjusting your driving including driving slower in risky environments.

However this experience typically comes after having and seeing numerous accidents and several years of risky driving.

This can be alleviated by providing compulsory training of socially minded responsible driving, where the differences between expected capabilites being exceeded and coping strategies

and unexpected dangers and coping strategies are explained.

The consequences of attitude with regard to adopting skilled interpretation of risks should also be explained. One of the most effective negative result is the cost.

The reason to start training early at 14yo is to address the issue before emotional problems develop later at 16yo where ego is a confusing and sometimes even suicidal risk factor.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Edge

[are33]

I come under these new laws in QLD next year.. And i actually agree with them.. There IS some of us out there that dont act like idiots EVERYTIME we go out in a car... Some people respect and care for theyre vehicle.. But yet again its the small minority that have wrecked it for the people that want to do the right thing, And have a nice car, And not some proton or excel or commonwhore... I will be pissed off if qld review these laws and cancel them from comming into effect.. I just bought a non turbo r33 today

A quick fix soloution will work for a short time but like everything it will only just get worse with time.. I agree with everyone on here.. The government needs to stop the problem before it starts by showing the consequences of actling like a dickhead on the road and teach us how to react in an emergency. My parents are putting me through all those defensive driving courses.. And i really dont mind though i cant wait to take my car out there . Yet again though everyone else is right.. It comes down to the responsibility of the driver... Its ok do you some stupid things like a burnout or something maybe a few times and get over it... But if you wanna speed or throw your car sideways arounda corner.. Its not to hard to run up to willowbank raceway or QR on a test and tune and have a good time then

Edited September 30, 2006 by OBNXSH

[Edge]

BNXSH just because you bought a non turbo doesn't mean you should agree with the laws because they are wrong. These are useless laws that should be abolished in favour of laws that actually help save lives like driver safety training courses.

Even in your non turbo you will probably try to learn the limits of your car on the street, every driver should know the limits of their car and thus know how to drive safely within those limits. Speed limits do not do this for you.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Edge

[LightAssassin]

I agree it's about driver training. But honestly, some people just don't stick with it... They can't seem to hold anymore information then GO and STOP. Mostly just the GO.

I was lucky with my driving instructor, I took probably twice the time others did doing lesson (money means fudge all compared to my life). The reason I was lucky is he was a ex-rally driver from the UK, only semi-pro but still. He taught me heaps of things (knew the area and where some private roads were, he was a champ!). He spoke about the UK training, how in their normal test they do a handbrake test, at random (on a safe road, no other cars etc..) the tester just pulls the handbrake and you have to keep control.

It's little differences like that which make me a better driver then most my friends and family (also, I don't want to die!). I have done the occasional stupid thing... but NEVER near other cars EVER. I did get caught speeding on the motorway (2am, no cars in sight), I learnt my lesson not so much for the fine and the 6 month suspension, but after it happened I looked at crash photos (ones with the gore).... I never want that for me. Never again though, I'm a track monkey in the making (don't speed, drive like a nancy, always good stopping distances etc...) and wait for the track.

I have only just purchased my skyline (after being on my P's for 2 and a half years), and have already booked in for driving training courses and race related ones (for track work only). But the more time I spend finding the limits and understanding my car the better. I started off jumping from car to car, and still do from time to time (driving mums Eunos, dads commodore, ex's magna, driving instructors lancer, mates R32 GTS-4). So I understand the differences between cars... by god they are different... and after test driving modded, stock and all sorts of R33 gts-ts I understand they maybe the same car.. but even then are different.

I reckon anytime a person is purchasing a car when everybody says "Get a mechanical check!", they should add "Do your advanced driver course!" for each car they buy.

More training is where it is at, I have younger brothers, and I see in no way the laws will help them. Well except for the 2 level P's assuming they actually have to do a second driving test to go from Green to Red. But advanced driving courses should be apart of your license! Maybe pump the speeding fine money into training instead of into new equipment to catch more people speeding... catching the guy doing 110km/h in a 100km/h on his way to work at 6am won't help the 18 year old in his barina doing 160km/h at 3am.

Also how many deaths are related to crap cars? Eg. worn brakes, worn tyres, bad suspension... I hate dodgey cars, I feel a instant hate anybody takes me in their car that's dodgey. That $200 for tyres on your 13" rims will save your and my life... and that $1000 on decent suspension for your barina will too! If you can't tell your brakes are less then 30% left, GET OUT OF THE CAR AND STAY AWAY!

Fudging kids, loosing traction isn't cool! I'll say it proud, I don't like burnouts! I don't like drift! If you do... take it to the god damn skid pad and do it till your car explodes, just don't do it down my f**king street! Already had a idiot on a motorbike flip infront of my house and lose half the skin on his back... same bike that broke his brothers back doing the same thing! And a idiot friend of mine who hit my fence because he liked doing handbrakies on the grass in the wet!

I've had 1 accident, it was in the wet, simply put oil on the road and my back end slipped out... difference was, due to my training I didn't slide onto the otherwise of the road and hit the on coming car... I hit a gutter, if it was grass there would be no damage to speak of. Worst that happened was my brother bumped his head on the roof. I have been in other accidents where I wasn't driving... from a drink driver raming our tail end as he was too drunk to tell we were stopped (80km/h 3m of braking and then a hit of us = NOT FUN!), my mothers van with my family in the car got hit by a unmaintained car (brake pads were GONE and air in system).

Learn to drive... learn properly, save the risks for the track... and by god, it's only money, but a decent god damn car and maintain it!

/rant

[SKY031]

Well I've only ever seen stats that say driver training does work (ie. reduce deaths/serious accidents), I've never seen stats that say driver training increases accidents/deaths.

Soo...........does anyone have any evidence at all that driver training increases deaths/accidents? Can you post that here ??? otherwise shut the f*ck up.

As has been previously stated, statistics only say what people want them to say.

The majority of road users have never undertaken additional training once they have obtained their licence.

So statistically speaking, people who have done a driving course are less likely to be attacked by a shark, less likely to be wake up and find a goanna in their bed, and less likely to die on the roads, simply because there are less of them.

[hrd-hr30]

I don't have any problem with banning P platers from high performance cars. if parents these days are too stupid to do it, maybe it needs to be legislated. besides, if they aren't going to make it harder to get a licence, at least make it harder for the idiots to kill themselves, and others. Its much easier to loose control in a high power car than a low power car. Idiots will still be idiots, but at least they will be going a bit slower when they crash.

the real problem (well one of them!) is that people consider getting a licence as a right rather than a privilege. most people can't drive for shit, and worse, they don't even know half the rules. They don't care about learning how to drive or what the rules actually are because they see driving - to be set loose in a 1000+kg projectile at up to 30m/s with minimal training - as their god-given right!

not unlike the young people here who see owning a high powered car as a god given right. if you are a responsible driver who isn't going to speed or carry on like a yahoo on the road, what does it matter if you can't have that turbo car until you have an open licence? hopefully they'll introduce a law that you must complete defensive and advanced driver training courses before you are permitted to own them too. They have a similar concept for motorbikes.

the other real root problem is that we don't teach people to drive. we teach them to manouver a vehicle at low speed (park, 3pt turn, etc) and operate the controls. You get your licence and THEN you learn to drive - out on the open road without any instruction/supervision. At least keeping these new drivers who are still learning how to drive out of high performance cars MIGHT go some way to keeping a couple of them alive a bit longer.

When I was 18 I thought I could drive too. It was only when I went to my first track day which was a damp day at Lakeside raceway that I found out I still had lots to learn. I was 24 at that time. Then I got into events and started to really learn how to control a car. And I can tell you that there's alot of experienced competitors (and friends) who really don't have good car control skills. You see people losing it on the track in situations that really should have been easily recoverable, or even avoidable. Car control is a skill - it's not something that everyone can master, and it's certainly not something that a one-off advanced driver training course can teach you. Its a skill that needs practice and refining like any other skill. That isn't practicable for the majority of the driving population, so avoidance is the best solution. Teaching and encouraging people to drive slow enough to avoid those situations where they need those kind of skills is the best bet. Putting young people in lower powered cars is a measure towards that goal.

[LightAssassin]

It's interesting to see these points. I cop a lot of flak for being younger and getting the skyline (I haven't even picked it up from seller). But I am going to do the right thing...

I am almost on my opens, and I'm sure I could have waited. Only problem is banned high performance cars won't really help. Honestly the biggest danger I see is guys in older commodores and hatch backs pulling "cool tricks". I have spent the last couple months in a Eunos M500 and before that a Twincam Corolla. These cars are more then capable then getting to the speeds, heck a commodore can out do the corolla easy, however, being a sportier model it's suspension is far better.

Really it does come down to proper training... I didn't see it as my right to drive... and I spent a long time with a driving instructor learning everything I could, whats an extra $500 for my life? Nothing.

Another issue is driving instructors, honestly, I tried a couple before I ended up with whom I went with. Some are there to make money, they really don't care. They don't teach some totally basic things (watching my friend goto a crap instructor... I tried getting him to get another...). I was in the car with my mate driving his dads magna, manual etc... and driving instructor hadn't even explained how to come off throttle between gear changes... my friend just took his foot 100% the throttle and then put the clutch in. In wet conditions this sudden loss of speed (even worse on smaller 4 cylinder cars), can send the car into a slide.

Don't just bag us young guys either, there are plenty of older wankers getting around too. At age 25 you don't magically wake up and go "shit aye, should drive real careful". Majority of people who cut me off on the motorway taking my stopping distance, fly past me @ 140+ along the motorway etc... are in their 30's driving commodores or falcons (though I find xr6 turbos to be sedate). Yesterday I had a elder woman fly past me on her mobile fone... The stupidity of some people... jeez.

Part that pisses me off the most is the fact that everybody wants to point the finger at me for being young and wanting to own a turbo car. I've been doing my fair share to own the car, doing the training and waiting (I could have bought one 6 month into my Ps) but I waited. This magic 3 years on your Ps rule won't work! I would have loved to take lessons to get a "Turbo license". I am happy knowing I have to move up from 250cc bikes to higher ones (yep, got my bike learners just recently too!).

The system as it stands won't fix the problems... more training, more testing, better certified instructors, and more money towards making it cheaper for lower income people. I come from a family that can afford it, but others don't... so the government needs to help them, or at least fix the public transport system up.

How the fudge can the government have a surplus in the budget and yet... we can't get roads fixed properly... more driver training or anything similar. Instead we get baby bonus... god damn it.

I hate arguing politics... it always goes in circles... honestly there is not much we can do. I had friends attending the new laws in QLD discussions... they got nowhere. Go tell joe bloggs @ age 30 his driving is crap... most people I know couldn't pass their license test again... I would bet money that I could, I learnt my road rules, I follow them to the best of my ability (people do make mistakes) and I will go beyond the "standard" requirements everyday of the week to prove I am a good driver.

All I'm saying is, there isn't a quick fix... and it's not going to be cheap. I'm just waiting for all the v6 commodores to be cruising the streets at night... no wait... where I live that's what they mostly are... sometimes v8 if they are lucky. I bearly see a skyline or WRX in my local area... let alone high speed accidents involved with them... however, come around a corner to find a commodore or laser in a ditch and somebody hurt badly.

Maybe we should look at drafting up some changes and presenting them to our state governments to show what really needs to be done. I'm talking a real effort here... not some online petition... real information with statistics (as the gov loves them), money involved and everything. I don't mind banning them for 3 years... but this won't fix the problem! It may help slightly... but there are far more important factors to be looked at.

[davidoff32]

new law: all P platers drive Toyota Echo's only

[MRGTR911]

new law: all P platers drive whatever they can afford Ameended .

Sometimes i feel as if some of you older guys and girls get jealous that P platers drive better cars then you ,You people watch the media too much , im sure theres alot of Tools your age who act in negligant driving , but you never see them on the news , Why because they want to target P platers , They can make more money there .... Its all a money scheme . And i can tell you now that there is P Platers who act like idiots but im sure there is Older People with there licenses who act like idiots just as much .

If you think we are inexperienced you can all jump , Age is nothing, Take for E.G. Formula 1 Grand Prx last year 2nd overall on his debut year Loius Hamilton at the age of 21 . Also Fernando Alonzo took out his Championship win at age of 22 . Thse are guys you regard as P platers ???

[chris_r31]

alot of the older drivers would prefer to drink a slab at a mates house and act like hero's and drive home saying "dont worry darling i can drive, im alright, i have been driving for years".. and thats ok untill they get caught, but doin a burnout on the spot an not going anywere is like the worst thing a human can do these days, lol wankers

and on another note, yer some to most of the older drivers hate it when the blonde wifes look at a p plater in a nice clubby or tuff skyline, lol so many times i would get smiles an winks from girls in this situation...

BAN LOW PERFORMANCE DRIVERS NOT HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS!!!!!!

[chris_r31]

Sometimes i feel as if some of you older guys and girls get jealous that P platers drive better cars then you ,You people watch the media too much , im sure theres alot of Tools your age who act in negligant driving , but you never see them on the news , Why because they want to target P platers , They can make more money there .... Its all a money scheme . And i can tell you now that there is P Platers who act like idiots but im sure there is Older People with there licenses who act like idiots just as much .

If you think we are inexperienced you can all jump , Age is nothing, Take for E.G. Formula 1 Grand Prx last year 2nd overall on his debut year Loius Hamilton at the age of 21 . Also Fernando Alonzo took out his Championship win at age of 22 . Thse are guys you regard as P platers ???

lol and wats the average age of some of australias best drifters.. im not 1 of them only cause i cant afford to go to every event, but i will put my money were my mouth is on the street, were all of us have learnt..

[Mr Eps]

this is probably the most insightful and intelligent and debate worthy thread i have EVER read, thankyou MK2 and lgithassassin

infact just yesterday i was in heavy traffic, and a 40 or so year old guy was trying to drag race me in a v8 LANDCRUISER like this thing was loud full exhaust system n everything

i mean

heavy traffic

peak hour

"rolling start" drag race, like, FOOT DOWN, back off, change into 2nd FOOT DOWN, back off

naturally i didn't race,

but

again

heavy traffic

peak hour

rolling start

3-4 million tonnes of landcruiser

speeding, racing, trying to prove a point to a 22 (yuoung-ish) import hi-po car driver

no amount of training or awareness will stop flamin mongrels being dickheads man, sorry.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Mr Eps

[GTR-32U]

I have heard so much talk of training young drivers car control etc etc. Fact is if these young guys were obeying the speed limits and road rules these accidents would never have happened. I learnt to drive in a POS XE Falcon wagon...Body roll galore, pathetic drum brakes on the back that made me wonder if they actually did work, no road holding abilities at all whatsoever in the wet...yet through my stupid young phase I am still alive today. The cars these young guys get today are far better braking and handling yet the accidents are through the roof....Its the boy racer mentality that is killing people, its encouraged in video games,movies and TV....Sorry but when you crash the skyline at 300 kmh on Gran Tourismo 4 the car is unmarked...reality is totally different...Everybody wants to race,be it at the traffic lights or through a twisty road....racing is the trend..to be the best or fastest..This is why the deaths are just going to continue to increase...Doesnt matter whether its a 600 hp GTR or a 100hp excel...both are capable of killing.