Banning Performance Cars From P Platers = More Deaths

[chris_r31]

I have heard so much talk of training young drivers car control etc etc. Fact is if these young guys were obeying the speed limits and road rules these accidents would never have happened. I learnt to drive in a POS XE Falcon wagon...Body roll galore, pathetic drum brakes on the back that made me wonder if they actually did work, no road holding abilities at all whatsoever in the wet...yet through my stupid young phase I am still alive today. The cars these young guys get today are far better braking and handling yet the accidents are through the roof....Its the boy racer mentality that is killing people, its encouraged in video games,movies and TV....Sorry but when you crash the skyline at 300 kmh on Gran Tourismo 4 the car is unmarked...reality is totally different...Everybody wants to race,be it at the traffic lights or through a twisty road....racing is the trend..to be the best or fastest..This is why the deaths are just going to continue to increase...Doesnt matter whether its a 600 hp GTR or a 100hp excel...both are capable of killing.

in all honesty, i think these days not many teenages get excited over video games as its not new technology to us anymore, so i dont think cause we go 300kms in grand turismo we get adrenaline fits and have to jump in the car and race around..

most p platers dont no the limits of there car and the road, but the ones that have acciedents, no people that died in car accidents an no how to drive know there limits, its a case of learning the hard way for the stupid drivers. its not science or maths, dont race and leave ur self with 50ms to break from 160kms, its common f*king sence..p platers have to learn there limits and yes i am 21 years old and i am a p plater..

[DECIM8]

Way to dig up the old thead hey.. Anyone actually got some offical figures on reported deaths in young drivers since this was launched?

I did happen to notice that this easter road kill was down alot.. like only 1/4 of people died on the roads compared to last year.. Perhaps it was because the easter long weekend did not go with uni or school holidays but thats a massive drop.

[Lachlan33]

It seems to me that if the RTA and police actually wanted to stop 'speeding hoon P platers' they would focus on changes that make a difference. Look at many european countries, their accident rates are far lower yet countries like germany have roads people can legally do 200+ km/h on. Why is that? Its all in the driver training. They have to be able to identify and explain what understeer and oversteer are, they have several years of learning. Here we have a 17 year old in a pos VL who has been driving for 12 months around the local streets with his mum.

Instead the police are focusing on the 'cracking down' on high performance and modified cars. Sure it looks to the general community like something is being done, but its really just a big money grab.

Can some one explain to me how a fine for a POD filter helps keep the roads safe? Exposed in the engine bay? Who gives a F**K!. And some cops give you that 'oh it could catch fire' bullcrap. Don't let them ever tell you that. Why? The point at which oil on the filters will spontaniously combust is higher than the melting point of plastic. In other words, your stock airbox would have melted into a molten blob before your oiled Pod filter would catch fire. But good luck trying to explain that.

I am just gratefull I got my licence a few months before that stupid turbo restriction came into play.

And another thing, that P plater curfew, my GOD thats a terrible idea. It TOTALLY undermines the designated driver scheme, something that young people are actually better at sticking to the joe blo 35 year old mr 'I know how to drive safely'

Ask yourself, what is safer:

5 18 year olds. 1 is DD and they all pile into a car and drive home

OR, what with the new passenger restrictions,

they pile into 2 or 3 cars and take the same route home. First red light and you can be assured they will race. Somehow MORE cars driven by P platers is a sollution to the problem? I think not. Seems more like an increase in fine-ability by the cops to me.

/rant

[scathing]

If you think we are inexperienced you can all jump, Age is nothing,

How do you get experience without having time to do so? Of course age has everything to do with experience.

"Experienced" doesn't mean "good", but that's not what you're saying.

Loius Hamilton

Busted for doing 40mph (65km/hr) over the speed limit.

There's a time and a place for everything. No-one's disputing his skill, but there's more than skill to being a good driver. A part of that is behaviour, like not doing an excessively higher speed than other road users, which tends to go hand in hand with......wait for it.....age and experience.

Some people never mature and their experience doesn't equal good roadcraft. However, proportionally, young drivers are over-represented in foolish behaviour. There's a reason why insurance companies hike up the premium for young drivers, and its not because they think kids fresh out of high school are so cashed up that they can milk them for more money than people who've held full time jobs for years.

[DECIM8]

I dont think it so much is skill with driving, most kids with a VL and ripping hand brakies in a car park are going to have more skill at handling a out of control car.. I think its the mindset youngins have (im still pretty young - id like to think so anyways) about NO FEAR, living fast and disregard about others. Again its prob parents fault because they dont teach them how to respect others.

E.G you stop at the lights your windows are down and your radio is at 1000 db .. what do you do? Turn it down till the light goes green, common sense isnt it? not everyone would want to hear your doof doof. Why cant people do it?

Thank god ive got a big enough system to blow any corollas shaky 6x9s out of the water and blow the tyres off the shitbox too, teach them.

E.g 6am morning, going to work start your car idle and quietly drive off? oR cold start it, rev it to 7g in reverse rip out the driveway in a ball of smoke and then into 1st,2nd and 3rd smoking each gear.. leaving tyre marks and 10 car alarms ringing..

e.g .. youve got 4 mates in the car, do you a. keep your eyes on the road and drive correctly b. keep your eyes on the road and drift corners to test out the seatbelts?

Respect for life, property and others..

Man I am so old.. Lucky I didnt get onto hitting your kids when they are bad.. but if you dont hit your kids your next on my list (WHEN THEY ARE BAD ENOUGH)

Edited May 2, 2008 by DECIM8

[scathing]

I have heard so much talk of training young drivers car control etc etc. Fact is if these young guys were obeying the speed limits and road rules these accidents would never have happened.

If they knew how to drive appropriate to the conditions, it would "never have happened either". Does the learner test cover night driving? Wet weather driving? Motorway driving? Does it test winding roads as well as long straights?

People can just as easily crash doing the speed limits and obeying the road rules. The government fobs off any other situation as "drive to the conditions", which is so vague that its meaningless. To someone with driving experience or good training, they would have a rough idea of how fast to go in a particular situation. For anyone who only knows what's in the road user's manual and the practical test, you may as well have spoken Martian.

I learnt to drive in a POS XE Falcon wagon...Body roll galore, pathetic drum brakes on the back that made me wonder if they actually did work, no road holding abilities at all whatsoever in the wet...yet through my stupid young phase I am still alive today. The cars these young guys get today are far better braking and handling yet the accidents are through the roof

Aside from better braking and handling, they also go a lot faster......which means if they drive them according to their "stupid young phase" and it lets go, it lets go in a bigger way. Great handling is great, but if an experienced driver exceeds the limits of their new vehicle they slide off a corner at 80km/hr instead of 40. Human reaction doesn't change, and so by the time they react and even try to correct the car's gone a lot further. They'd also also need more runoff to come to an unassisted complete halt.

You also don't get the same level of coverage as you do now. In the old days, you'd be lucky to hear about some random guys crashing out in the sticks if you lived in another city. These days, every local rag has its own web site that's accessible from anywhere on the planet. What's the likelihood that, when you were a new license holder, you had the ability easily find out that someone lost a cat in the middle of nowhere?

Just because you never heard about it in the past doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[MRGTR911]

How do you get experience without having time to do so? Of course age has everything to do with experience.

"Experienced" doesn't mean "good", but that's not what you're saying.

So your saying a guy who is 70 Years old driving is a better driver then me ? im only 22 i bet you i can drive a whole lot better then you , only reason is i am useto driving sports cars when i was on my L's , I dont know what Laser,Corolla you were driving but thats how i learnt in my 5-6 Years driving .

[MRGTR911]

Scathing you are so missing the point , you are talking about speeding, EVERYONE SPEEDS !!!!! NOT ONLY P PLATERS.

[MRGTR911]

It seems to me that if the RTA and police actually wanted to stop 'speeding hoon P platers' they would focus on changes that make a difference. Look at many european countries, their accident rates are far lower yet countries like germany have roads people can legally do 200+ km/h on. Why is that? Its all in the driver training. They have to be able to identify and explain what understeer and oversteer are, they have several years of learning. Here we have a 17 year old in a pos VL who has been driving for 12 months around the local streets with his mum.

Instead the police are focusing on the 'cracking down' on high performance and modified cars. Sure it looks to the general community like something is being done, but its really just a big money grab.

Can some one explain to me how a fine for a POD filter helps keep the roads safe? Exposed in the engine bay? Who gives a F**K!. And some cops give you that 'oh it could catch fire' bullcrap. Don't let them ever tell you that. Why? The point at which oil on the filters will spontaniously combust is higher than the melting point of plastic. In other words, your stock airbox would have melted into a molten blob before your oiled Pod filter would catch fire. But good luck trying to explain that.

I am just gratefull I got my licence a few months before that stupid turbo restriction came into play.

And another thing, that P plater curfew, my GOD thats a terrible idea. It TOTALLY undermines the designated driver scheme, something that young people are actually better at sticking to the joe blo 35 year old mr 'I know how to drive safely'

Ask yourself, what is safer:

5 18 year olds. 1 is DD and they all pile into a car and drive home

OR, what with the new passenger restrictions,

they pile into 2 or 3 cars and take the same route home. First red light and you can be assured they will race. Somehow MORE cars driven by P platers is a sollution to the problem? I think not. Seems more like an increase in fine-ability by the cops to me.

+ 1

They dont get it the harder the get the worser it is , I Know of many performace shops and car dealers who have noone left to sell there cars too. The market for sports cars is obviously for young teens or early 20's, THEY GOT NO ONE LEFT TO SELL THE CARS TOO .

Edited May 2, 2008 by MRGTR911

[MRGTR911]

lol and wats the average age of some of australias best drifters.. im not 1 of them only cause i cant afford to go to every event, but i will put my money were my mouth is on the street, were all of us have learnt..

SO AGREED ,

Lets change Topic to " LEAVE P PLATERS ALONE " We cant help it we can afford the nice sports cars, so dont ruin it for us ..

[scathing]

So your saying a guy who is 70 Years old driving is a better driver then me ?

I said that experienced doesn't automatically mean good, but most of the time its better than inexperienced.

The perfect road driver is someone that has both skill and manners. Neither is absolutely dependent on age, but in the situation where a young driver has a lot of the former its my experience that they have little of the latter. Vice versa, old people tend to have more of the latter but less of the former.

However, on balance, as a road user the latter is more important. It takes very little skill to pilot a vehicle without crashing it, but evidence shows that an obnoxious driver ends up causing or being involved in an accident.

So yeah, its quite possible that a 70 year old is a better road driver than you...if you're a complete a$$hole behind the wheel on public roads.

Remember, the topic is about the people holding road licenses and so that's what you're being measured on. If you want to talk about CAMS or ANDRA license holders, then yes being an absolute speed demon would make you better than some geriatric who'd have a heart attack if his speedo hit triple digits.

only reason is i am useto driving sports cars when i was on my L's , I dont know what Laser,Corolla you were driving but thats how i learnt in my 5-6 Years driving .

In my experience, people who've only ever grown up driving sports cars tend to be rubbish behind the wheel. Having a car that handles well and makes good power usually ends up being a crutch. You don't need to learn how to drive skillfully if the car does most of the work. At the same time, all that performance goes straight to people's heads, and every day seems to be race day with the way they carve up traffic on the road.

For the record, I learnt to drive in a shitbox. The thing had no power, and the suspension rolled like a boat. That also meant that, if I wanted to keep up I had to learn how to brake as late and as little as possible to maintain what speed I had. I couldn't just step on the gas on the straights to claw up distance, and my suspension and weight wasn't exactly MX5-like in being able to maintain a high turn-in and mid-corner pace.

im only 22 i bet you i can drive a whole lot better then you

I'll bite.

Its pretty much impossible to empirically measure you on a behaviour front. Its not like random road users are going to post up complimenting you on your driving, and I haven't seen any posts from you telling everyone what you've done on public roads. So, I'll leave that be.

Anyway, on the skill front, what times are you running on the track or hillclimb course? I see your for sale 320awkW GT-R never went to the track, so if you can tell me what cars you drove (and roughly how tuned we're talking if they're not stock) that would also be useful information.

If you are quicker than me on the track it just proves you're a more skilled driver, which isn't what I'm talking about. You're missing the point that the ability to get a car from A to B in the lowest possible time isn't the only factor in making you a "good" road driver, which is all you seem to be rabbiting on about.

Scathing you are so missing the point , you are talking about speeding, EVERYONE SPEEDS !!!!! NOT ONLY P PLATERS.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about dangerous and reckless driving. Speeding is a factor, that's all.

Edited May 2, 2008 by scathing

[Lachlan33]

Scathing has a point. Having hektic drift skills are only half the story. On a public road you need awareness and common sense. No matter how skilled a driver you are, you can't defy the laws of physics if some one pulls out infront of you and you were going 180km/h.

I am all for driver training and promoting good road manners. I do have a problem with the way the RTA goes about it. Despite what they believe there are some P platers running around in modified cars who ARE NOT reckless hoons.

Unfortunetly it doesn't take much to get a licence. It takes a hell of alot more to be worthy of it.

[Kinks]

I am all for driver training and promoting good road manners. I do have a problem with the way the RTA goes about it. Despite what they believe there are some P platers running around in modified cars who ARE NOT reckless hoons.

I was quite a sensible P plater, for the most part.

For the other times, I was glad I had a Charade and not a Skyline.

'nuff said.

[sh@un]

Take for E.G. Formula 1 Grand Prx last year 2nd overall on his debut year Loius Hamilton at the age of 21 . Also Fernando Alonzo took out his Championship win at age of 22 . Thse are guys you regard as P platers ???

are you seriously comparing the skills of guys whose parents had them racing go-karts from the time most of us are just starting primary school, to some 17.y.o who just rocked down to the local RTA, drove around the block, did a hill-start, reverse parallel-parked and then got handed a licence?

g.t.f.o

[BHDave]

Scathing isn't missing the point at all.

Road driving is 90% attitude, 10% ability. The only time you should need to step up is if something out of the ordinary happens. I've been driving now for 14 years and i still wouldn't class myself as a good driver. I know i'm better than the average clown as i've never had an at fault accident but that doesn't make me good.

And i'm sorry, but MRGTR911 you fail on attitude. I would suggest you'd be slower around a track than scathing as well, even with the extra 130 odd kw atw as i know he can drive...

A little story to entertain everyone which relates to something scathing said earlier;

My first car was an 81 sigma. I owned it for 5 years. I bought a S4 rx7 next and had a 2 month overlap owning both cars. About a month after buying the rx7 it broke down and needed some part or another, i can't remember now, so i took the sigma. I took the same corner i had taken every day for the last 5 years at the same speed i had been taking it for the last 5 years and i near shat myself. Why? because in a month of driving a sports car i had become used to a good handling car and forgotten how much roll, how much tyre squeel and how unsettled the sigma was in the same situation as it was much closer to it's limit than the rx7. It doesn't take long to forget. I'm pretty cautious on the street these days as a result of that one experience. I don't assume just because there is a posted speed limit that the car i'm driving can do that speed.

Don't assume just because you have only ever driven a car that handles better and goes faster that you can drive, i would suggest the opposite. You have likely never been in a situation where you have entered a corner too quick for the chassis despite being below the speed limit, you have never been in a situation where the brakes aren't up to the task of pulling the car up and you have to swerve to avoid an acco. In short, you don't have the built in safety margin that someone who has learned in a shitter has.

You have 9 years less experience on a road than i do and have never driven on a track from what i've seen, possibly never done any advanced driver training. Do you think you can drive better than i can? It's a pretty big call and i'll happily admit i am not a gun track driver (or street driver for that matter) but i do have that extra experience.....

[GTR-32U]

If they knew how to drive appropriate to the conditions, it would "never have happened either". Does the learner test cover night driving? Wet weather driving? Motorway driving? Does it test winding roads as well as long straights?

People can just as easily crash doing the speed limits and obeying the road rules. The government fobs off any other situation as "drive to the conditions", which is so vague that its meaningless. To someone with driving experience or good training, they would have a rough idea of how fast to go in a particular situation. For anyone who only knows what's in the road user's manual and the practical test, you may as well have spoken Martian.

Aside from better braking and handling, they also go a lot faster......which means if they drive them according to their "stupid young phase" and it lets go, it lets go in a bigger way. Great handling is great, but if an experienced driver exceeds the limits of their new vehicle they slide off a corner at 80km/hr instead of 40. Human reaction doesn't change, and so by the time they react and even try to correct the car's gone a lot further. They'd also also need more runoff to come to an unassisted complete halt.

You also don't get the same level of coverage as you do now. In the old days, you'd be lucky to hear about some random guys crashing out in the sticks if you lived in another city. These days, every local rag has its own web site that's accessible from anywhere on the planet. What's the likelihood that, when you were a new license holder, you had the ability easily find out that someone lost a cat in the middle of nowhere?

Just because you never heard about it in the past doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I understand your point and to a large degree you are correct..however something to consider..Of all these fatalities just how many of them would be blamed on being untrained for the conditions ? I would say very little...But how many involved the use of ridiculously high speed,street racing ? I would dare say that the accidents would not have happened and if for some reason that they did.It would have been only a minor accident.And this isnt just P platers...People complain when police use hiding tactics like unmarked performance cars etc...personally I have no problem with this..If you are silly enough to have a drag race on the street...then you deserve to get caught pure and simple...people need licences cancelled for a lot longer to make them think twice about what they do on road

[siksII]

The cars these young guys get today are far better braking and handling yet the accidents are through the roof....

Accidents are not through the roof.

I believe that perception of accidents is through the roof with the media sensationalising anything they can:

"In 1975, Australia-wide, there were 26.8 road deaths per 100 000 population; this rate had fallen to 7.9 deaths by 2004 – a drop of 71 per cent."

Thats historical data from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau.. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2006/pdf/Int_Comp_03.pdf

Since 1998 the death rate has been pretty stable.

[GTS4WD]

I do not care what anyone sais..

EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!!!

In year 12 a did a launch of NRMA's new "virtual Learners car" something or other.. Its basically driving a virtual VW then you drive the real thing on the road. Some big wig of NRMA was there for the press confrence.. During it.. He opened himself to questions.. I asked.. "why not mate defensive driver training compulsary for all L drivers before they get their P's?" Simple enough.. you teach people to drive safe.. people will begin to drive safe..

His responce was the simgle most idiotic thing I have ever heard in my entire life.. "because they will become over confident and engauge in even more risk taking behaviour"

WTF!?!.. I know after I did my training with HART (Honda Australia Roadcraft Training) when i just got my reds.. I realised how much of distance you need to leave when following at certain speeds.. Never since have I tailgated and always allowed ~50m when driving at 60km/h and more at higher speeds.. Its absolutely apauling to see the amount of people that follow at unsafe distances.. Alot of the things that were taught are priceless for people who know nothing about cars or about driving!

I have a better idea.. WHY DONT WE STOP BITCHING ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND START DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! It will be even more meaningful if it comes from the modified car community!!! Who here can set up a simple website?.. We could start a petition! A simple Name.. Age.. Drivers licence/something to identify you.. We could take it to the NSW court.. Show them that this is what action we want taken!

This is how these things start!.. If I could somehow help keep my fellow P platers alive.. then I am sure as hell going to do everything I can to do that!.. I want my kids to be awesome drivers and to see them alive AFTER they get their P's..

So if somone has the resources/know how about how to start a website or some form of media that can be easily sent around to other forums/workplaces/uni/friends etc. then please PM me.. or say something.. because we need to stop our friends/kids/brothers/sisters from dieing because they are not being given a chance to be taught how to become a good driver!

[Lachlan33]

The RTA will never introduce compulsory driver training courses. Its cheaper for them to just introduce more fines and restrictions and so thats what they will do. If they did introduce defensive driving courses as part of the L's then they would pass the cost of that directly onto the applicant. And it costs enough already.

I hate it how the Learners licence costs less than the Red P licence which costs less than the Green P licence which costs less than your blacks. Its the same goddam piece of plastic made in the same way!

[BANGN]

to me its an inexperience thing really.

When I got my L's & P's I had a 90's seca and after 1 year of havn my P's i dropped a 165hp motor into it.. then i moved up a year later into another fwd car with more power, to teh point it was a 13 second car after I had finished with it and that was mid last year.. in 4 years I never had one accident or caused an accident and really I had it sussed on how to handle a fast fwd car.. then I purchased a R32 sky last year with 240 hp.. not much faster but rwd.. what did I do? in the wet on fwy i put my foot down slightly and lost it into some barriers and totaled the car.

Inexperience!! iv just purchased another skyline but after that expensive lesson I have now got a new respect to RWD cars and im going to go some track days to get my experience up in them, I can drive and handle a FWD perfectly fine in fast conditions as i have the experience, but in slow conditions i f**ked a rwd car..

so in short.. TRAINING IS EVERYTHING.. NOT POWER

Edited May 3, 2008 by BANGN