Place / Coarse For Learning To Program Afr Maps Etc

[SysLink67]

Does anyone know of an actual coarse where you can learn how to program Maps for a Apexi power FC etc?

If not to simply better understand what a "specialised performace workshop" actually does to your car so you can read their work and actually understand it.

There must be some industry / tafe training to get the basic jist so you can apply it practically perhaps.

I guess from my experiance with my car I have learned one thing from specialised performace workshops "YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET".

But from what I'm learning about TUNING the phrase aforementioned becomes very ambiguous. This is where my dilema lies : I went to a performance shop "pretty recently" and after talking to the person about my dyno figures in comparing it to another shops figures with reference to HP output they said this ( I quote verbatium) "Alot of shops can "do" manipulate certian factors of the dyno to influance final readout". To then add to that the same person also made reference to the adjustable cam wheels being "way out" on my car in the same discussion. Yet the other very well known performance shop set them up and have alot of years under their belt and training also. So after leaving I think to myself how many ways can they be set up? I'm thinking there must be some rule of thumb....... it can't be justified that one shop lets say picks X setting and the other Y right? as in totally different ends of the scale...... for achiving the same outcome..

Anyways In ending I am sick of paying out money for "tuning" at "specialised performace workshops" with very specialised tuning rates and feeling very disturbed when you hear a very very well known performace shop employee making such a statement about another very very well known performace shop makes me generally very skeptical when it comes to tuning now days..... I think anyone in my position would feel the same. Hense the 1st question...

I didn't write this to have a go at anyone or workshop specficly .... hense I didn't mention any names or business's etc. I'm sure they know who they are.....

Just would like to get my car tuned "right". and before all the gurus ask the question what does "right" mean? well to me it is this.... IMO

1. Output (or possible output ) is relative to condition of engine IE common sense person at a performace shop would gauge what would be the safe amount of boost I can put throught this customers engine without blowing the fu*&%^ up. (compression test , leak down test or questions to owner might give insight as to engine condition)

2. The supporting "mods" that allow the performace variations ie Diff turbos, fuel delivery, EBC, FMIC and so on etc etc obviously the performace workshop would know these basic factors from exp hense the $ they charge.

3. That the tune you recieve isn't going to leave you with having to have 4 20 litre jerry cans in the back of your boot just in case you dont make the 20k trip to the nearest BP to get more fuel for car. Yet the tune is safe no to be TO LEAN TO CAUSE DETENTION etc. Hense you have to rely on your "specialsed performace workshop" to do this which is based on there knowledge base and vast exp which you pay $'s for instead of going to some second rate shop.

4. And lastly perhaps a courtesy call after you take the car away to make sure you are happy with your car. I mean surely these super busy workshops must have 30 seconds to do that, I mean yet again common sense would previal, you wouldn't ask a customer how his oil change is doing but for things generally more significant you might "ie change of the clutch, a very expensive tune etc.... I mean mechanics in general be it a repco or some independant little garage in the middle of hicksville to these Super dupper performace workshops no matter how high their peddal stool is or the lack of their excrement no having any stank should do it based on the fact that they are in a service industry right.

I mean if your ISP wasn't providing you the connection you had paid for you wouldn't lie there and take it..... would you?......

IMO that would be the right tune......

anyways time to get of the soap box, proberly didn't do much but atleast I had my say.

OUT......

[ix9]

Nice post. At last a thread worth replying to in the WA section! Yes, there's lots of cowboys out there!

I think every industry/specialist field is like this. Take IT for example, there's generally a lot more than 2 ways to accomplish the same thing. Option A and Option B.

The correct way is often determined by experience in the end, ie Shop A might do something a certain way and possibly a better way due to later down the track it can cause Issue A. Shop B might not know about Issue A and continue down it's only line of experience to achieve the same outcome.

Ditto with software development - Although add another 9384938 ways to do things and you're pretty much on the money.

It comes down to the end fact, either you learn it yourself and make your own conclusions and methods to achieve what you want (As you have expressed above). OR place your trust in a Shop with the years of experience that you cannot achieve in your short timeframe.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert in cars. Although I do not know a lot more than the average bear when it comes to diagnosing/problem solving and/or "the way things work" I like to investigate EVERYTHING myself before taking it to a workshop to do (some previous dodgy-jobs I've done on my car I've had to re-do because of this) but hey. It's all fun in the end.

And regarding Point #4 - Customer service. I've found this pretty much doesn't even EXIST with the motor vehicle industry except for a few shops. Maybe years of know-it-all tyre-kickers and whingers have soured thier willingness to help the average Joe. A quick courtesy call, a technical explanation of an issue, FIXED pricing, accurate quotation, accurate timeframe estimates for jobs, etc etc (I'll stop now)

Good luck in your pursuit for knowledge by the way

[djr81]

There are a couple of points universal to most workshops:

They almost always slag their competitors.

They are universally sick & tired of tyre kickers & wannabees wasting there time with no hope of affording what they are enquiring after (Not you, just in general).

Best bet is to find a good workshop & develop a relationship with them. At the end of the day you should be paying them for their expertise, not to learn on the job at $70+ an hour.

[32vspecII]

I asked a big performance shop in perth if they i could sit in on my dyno tuning session and if they could show me how its done

they reluctantly agreed

for twice the price

[Swiper the Fox]

Jim Souvas from Croydon Racing in Sydney always welcomes me to sit-in the car and watch the tuning process...it allows you to see how it is done and the steps involved in getting the tune right....it is also a safer place to be than walking around near the dyno etc with a high powered car on the rollers. Charging a customer extra to sit in on a tuning session is a bit rude and can only think that they would not want you to sit next to them cause their methods are flawed.

[SysLink67]

And just to add for the record.....

I wasn't a tyre kicker, nor a customer trying to screw down the price etc etc, I'm happy to pay more to a "specialised performance workshop" providing they can bolster their position with outcomes that reflect their years and years of exp in their field and their knowledge. But when you have payed top dollar have not F^&*ked them around in the slightest you kinda get pissed esp when its 2 of the most well known "specalised performace shops" that you want to trust and build a relationship with both have outcomes that are questionable.

Has anyone taken their GTR to speedworks to get tuned? are they any "good" ?

[32vspecII]

If you read the forum rules we are not allowed to talk about any performance workshops being "bad" so not much point asking that question.

If would be nice though if some of the big performance workshops who do frequent here could justify their policy of locking their customers out of the tuning process and keeping them in the dark . Is it really "cause their methods are flawed" ?

now is your chance to set the record straight!

[teejay]

There are courses available to learn how to tune.

Hoever they are not cheap. Add to that the fact you then need to hire (@ 150 odd dollars an hour) or buy (@ 150k plus) a dyno, and suddenly you realise you may as well pay an expert to do it. If you want to give it a crack though, buy a lambada, and dont try it totally off the bat.... a motor isnt worth it

And whats been said above - shops will always big note thier own work before others. And everyone tunes with a slightly different philosophy.

End of the day if your happy with the tune and it doesnt pop your motor, be happy. Every person will give you a different reply on the standard of work from shop a b c and d, you need to go in , ask questions, make a judged decision, and hope its the right one.

Edited September 26, 2006 by teejay

[SysLink67]

Teejay is it.....

Okay answer this then... How is it that you can make a informed and correct decision on a service without having the results first inwhich you have to pay for before you see them? What questions would you ask!!??? (hmm are you any good at tuning mate? ( yes we are a super performace workshop we have 200 yrs exp between all our staff and we know what we are doing, oh in that case you must be good aye... plus you are charging so much for your exp it has to be good right.......

then theres always the reply from the workshop the fact that they have so many overheads and workshop exps yadaa yadda yadds "my heart bleeds" welcome to small business but I dont really care about all thats their worry. Alls I care about is ....

A. I get what I have payed for...

B. I dont have to waste my time having to wage a war just for someone to see it from another point of view for a sec to understand why there is a problem in the first place.

C. To be able to drive away happy and for my specialsed performace workshop to happy too. They get their MONEY I get my SERVICE very SIMPLE its basic commerce.

Where as lets say you require a service, lets say to get a front window installed in your car. Well thats pretty much a given if you know if thats done correct or not unless your pretty dense.

Its also kinda a reduntant point bro....... and to be content that your engine doesn't go pop..... I mean your kinda a idiot to take that as a bonus when you pay a large amount to a specialised performance workshop not you blow your engine mate.....

With tuning that is not the case. I think you are placing alot of trust in someones hands. The reason for all this is that tuning seems to be a magical black art..... that only the elite can learn and that for people that have the skills can charge alot of coin to do it correct, but what now scares me is that there is even contension between the elite and the results reflect that.

At the end of the day I wish I could find a HPWS (high performace workshop) that did a tune as I defined "RIGHT" for me with no hassels.

I think this is becoming a white elephant.

[rev210]

Learn to road tune with a good wideband as a starting point.

[rev210]

Before people even get to the soap box of performance car tuning and the workshops I usually hit them with 1001 reasons why owning a performance car is a mental illness.

Things go bang on formula 1 cars and all manner of very expensive motorsport pursuits have a very sizable share of bad tune days and 5km down the road breakage. All this not for the lack of money or people who work thier ass off to have a car perform.

If you really like performance cars a DIY approach will cost you time and money (mistakes) but, will over time replace much of the work required by a 3rd party. However contrary to popular belief there is no 'cheap' when it comes to fast cars).

Yep it's painfull, quit the whole thing with cars till it's too late.

[SysLink67]

So what your saying is that you have to be a millionaire to enjoy your car and expect people with exp and knowledge to stuff up (even though you went to them for their exp hense the price in the first place) and to accept it because thats the nature of the game, and to stick my head in the sand and my crack in the sun and please swipe my credit card as much as you want..... dude thats maybe the way you think not me, sorry bro.

[mitchy_]

Before people even get to the soap box of performance car tuning and the workshops I usually hit them with 1001 reasons why owning a performance car is a mental illness.

Things go bang on formula 1 cars and all manner of very expensive motorsport pursuits have a very sizable share of bad tune days and 5km down the road breakage. All this not for the lack of money or people who work thier ass off to have a car perform.

If you really like performance cars a DIY approach will cost you time and money (mistakes) but, will over time replace much of the work required by a 3rd party. However contrary to popular belief there is no 'cheap' when it comes to fast cars).

Yep it's painfull, quit the whole thing with cars till it's too late.

as the saying goes..

cheap, fast, reliable.

pick 2

[Sweetleaf]

This thread got silly when you expect any tuner to let you in a dyno room and teach you how its done.Imagine the public liability etc plus why would you expect them to pass on their trade, no other pro's would.

Please Dr show me how to do my own heart transplant.

[rev210]

So what your saying is that you have to be a millionaire to enjoy your car and expect people with exp and knowledge to stuff up (even though you went to them for their exp hense the price in the first place) and to accept it because thats the nature of the game, and to stick my head in the sand and my crack in the sun and please swipe my credit card as much as you want..... dude thats maybe the way you think not me, sorry bro.

No, even if you are a multi millionaire and say own a formula 1 team with the worlds best mechanical engineers and pit mechanics (thats experience and knowledge for you) you get burnt. Because the second law of thermo dynamics is something you can't get away from among other things. Formula 1 engines get 'lunched' among everything else that often breaks, why would you think a car with far less behind it would be any different even better in terms of doing things perfectly?

When you eventually learn how to tune your car yourself (years from now) and are just swiping the credit card for parts and not service you will tell me how right I was.

Over the years I've rebuilt engines ( including ported rotories - thats asking for it ) and pretty much had a go at most mechanical areas on my cars over the years. And like anyone who has done the same you get shafted by some bastard unforseen gremlin because you chose to increase the factory power output 20+% over standard and try to drive it in the enjoyment zone.

If you can accept the facts , you allow for them stategically so to speak and learn phrases like "...well thats racing ". Put aside some of the car budget to buy some emergency beer and have a few mates with the same disease who can offer consolation over an emergency beer.

Places like these forums are good resources to get info you need to start breaking...errr I mean tuning and upgrading your own fast car.

[SysLink67]

well as a point of fact its a cardiologist.... secondly that would be in possible to do your own heart transplant becuase you would be on a heart lung by-pass machine making it medically impossible and secondly you have to one hell of a dumbshit to use that as an analgy.

I should know because I have had a heart transplant this year bro.

And like "Dirt Garage" stated Jim Souvas from Croydon Racing in Sydney always welcomes me to sit-in the car and watch the tuning process. So what's the big deal just because you maybe happy in remaining ignorant or happy as pig in S&*^ with your tuning doesn't mean to say everyone is pal.

I would like to sit and have alook IF it was possible.

So relaxe matey.

[rev210]

I noticed you reffer to cam timing postition in the first post.

Setting the cam timing is a bit of a bugger. The cam timing itself has a relationship to timing and fuel and as a result it's influence on other things makes it a tad tricky to setup.

Start another thread on the cam turbo setup you have in performance, or PM me and I'd be happy to give you my 2c. I had tomei cams setup on both standard GTR turbos and group A

[ish]

Its a hard thing to get/find someone to show you unless you invest somehow in there qualifications... or lease the equipment

You have to find someone that isint hung up on what he knows as some gift from God or protective investment...

I see your in perth where there is an Online American course that travels and teaches exactly what you ask even the motec system's! but i can remember it is at the moment.

Also Motec conduct seminars on installation ,tuning and race tuning if you have the coin and you enroll early.

I felt like you SysLink67 where no matter how hard i tried to learn this passivley thought common intrest the harder it became....

Here is not the best place to try and gain info on it, I got nothing but patrinization... BUT!!! i dont give up to easy!

Right now i am learning to use a widband lambda sensor with logging & road tuning simpley so i wont need a dyno in the end

the basic rules to tuning and power are all the same no matter what ECU is used . the main part is understanding the input required and at what intervals and conditions these should be changed in your MAP.

Try a few fuel injection forums where a whole map, rulz and process is gone though and explained> From there dload the softwarez and play with them ... learn about how they are all different but really the same ....>just fancy intergrated PLC's (programable logic controllers) that allow the same AFR or lambda moinitering and adjustment just different userinterfaces.

All the best mate

[rev210]

The efi forum is here; http://www.efi101.com/forum/

[ish]

lol thanks rev thats the one