More Power

[slip]

scathing - if a motor is not naturally aspirated, then it is forced induction. Forced induction = supercharger, turbo, which pushes air into the motor. Nitrous does not force more air into a motor, it is simply injected along with the fuel, so a nitrous non turbo RB25 would be naturally aspirated.

[Eug]

scathing - if a motor is not naturally aspirated, then it is forced induction. Forced induction = supercharger, turbo, which pushes air into the motor. Nitrous does not force more air into a motor, it is simply injected along with the fuel, so a nitrous non turbo RB25 would be naturally aspirated.

you could spray it into the intake ahahha

[Traditimeour]

It's just not Natural. :laughing-smiley-014: Hahaha

[GTR Power]

RB26 head with open ITB's

upgrade cams to 304 duration and higher lift

stiffer valve springs

Shave the head and use dome top pistons for around 12:1 compression

some port work

should make close to 200 rwkw

any idea on the price of this mate?

[scathing]

Whats natural about an engine at all, or adding octane booster or different fuels. Your missing the last part... "Asperation" the engine still breathes on its on... the intake charge is under no pressure other then atmospheric... Therefore its still natural.

Then I guess no car is "naturally aspirated", if you're going to be like that.

And no, I didn't miss the aspiration part. Which is why octane booster or different fuels is completely irrelevant to what we're talking about.

And the engine is not breathing on its own, from the atmosphere. I stick someone on a life support respirator, but I'm not forcing air into their lungs under pressure, are they "breathing on their own"?

Going on your theory ram air intakes are the same as having a turbo...

Not really. "Ram air" is a property of hydrodynamics. Air flowing through certain shapes naturally does certain things.

Using a mechanical compressor or injecting a molecule from a bottle into the intake (regardless of if its in the intake tubing or into the manifold) is hardly the same.

[scathing]

Nitrous does not force more air into a motor, it is simply injected along with the fuel

It doesn't force air at all into an engine. It injects a molecule from an on-board source not even found in the atmosphere in anything more than trace amounts, which then breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen.

With it not even being found in the atmosphere, how is it natural?

I suppose it could be a perception issue. Most of you guys come from a FI background, being Skyline drivers. I come from a NA background. The way you guys see it, anything that's not running an air compressor is NA. The way I see it, anything that adds a mechanical or chemical component into the airstream is not NA.

Some of the drag racing fraternity seems to agree with me, because they separate aspiration into separate classes. You've got naturally aspirated, forced induction, and chemical supercharging. So just because something is not FI doesn't make it NA. You've got that third option...which not everyone may have picked up on.

I've never said N2O is FI, in the same way that a compressor-based induction unit is. I just said its not NA.

[Eug]

any idea on the price of this mate?

i've done a rough price up on it, your looking into around 10k for a nice hardcore build.

RB26 head without cams, valves etc = 1-2k

cams and gears = 1k

block prep, port and polish, ecu, tune, pistons, gasket, little tid bits.

the throttle bodies themselves.

its not a cheap build hey, i'd give 10k to get a fully reliable, hardcore high revving motor pushing something chronic like 200rwkw.

bang for buck wise its not worth it, unless you have these parts lying around or are insanely rich.

it will sound madly horny but. that said with the right support gear (diff, lightened flywheel, suspension, etc) it will be a very very very cool sounding, and quick circuit car.

[slip]

I suppose it could be a perception issue. Most of you guys come from a FI background, being Skyline drivers. I come from a NA background. The way you guys see it, anything that's not running an air compressor is NA. The way I see it, anything that adds a mechanical or chemical component into the airstream is not NA.

I've never said N2O is FI, in the same way that a compressor-based induction unit is. I just said its not NA.

i come from an n/a backgound.

by your definition (which might it add may be relevant to something else in a technical capacity, makes no sense when applied to this subject) - anything that adds a mechanical or chemical component into the airstream is not NA.....so if we take the common petrol combustion engine, where petrol (a chemical) is added into the airstream as a combustion fuel, then this is not NA? If you run a car on methanol, is this not NA? (just to make sure - yes they are NA)

How does running a car on methanol, or nitrous, differ from running a car on petrol? Fuel is fuel. There are many types of fuel, LPG, methanol, petrol, deisel, avgas etc.

as previously stated, in this case, you have either forced induction, or NA. Nothing to do with fuel type. you could run your car on banana peels, it'd still be NA.

it is referred to as chemical supercharging because drag racing, and in fact motorsport in general has very strict rules aimed at parity and equality. so someone that is using nitrous would be able create more power than the same setup without it, hence the term - you are chemically affecting the charge and the force created, but not the atmospheric pressure of the intake, it still breathes naturally with no turbo or supercharger.

[andylaurel]

when refering to N20 cars, you cant call them Natural or Forced, because they are neither...

effectively N20 is two parts nitrogen and 1 part oxygen, however in a liquid form...

the Nitrogen does nothing... but the oxygen is able to be burnt. so when you arm the nitrous, it effectively adds a 1/3rd more oxygen to your mixture, enabling more fuel to be burnt

this works on a similar principle to super/turbochargers

[andylaurel]

any idea on the price of this mate?

who cares what it would cost!!!

can you imagine the sound of it!

not to mention the power delivery!

NA power is real power, so much more usable!

[SLIMVLT]

in most racing circles nitrous will be aded to the forced induction side of things.

its giving the air a more dense charge that usulay only having a supercharger or turbo will, provide so imo its a force induction thing.

also why dont u just bolt the hole shebang onto a 3L block use your rb25 psitons get about 11 -1 comp by doing this make even more power

[scathing]

by your definition (which might it add may be relevant to something else in a technical capacity, makes no sense when applied to this subject) - anything that adds a mechanical or chemical component into the airstream is not NA.....so if we take the common petrol combustion engine, where petrol (a chemical) is added into the airstream as a combustion fuel, then this is not NA? If you run a car on methanol, is this not NA? (just to make sure - yes they are NA)

Remember how I said the fuel was irrelevant yesterday? That still pertains. Do you even know what nitrous oxide does?

Nitrous is not a fuel, its an accelerant. It is not a fuel replacement or enhancement, it is an air replacement / enhancement. If you dump nitrous into your intake, you have to add more fuel to go with it. You can switch your engine to run on LPG and change nothing else you can cut petrol out 100% from the combustion process by running it purely on LPG, but if you add a nitrous system and change nothing else you can't cut petrol out of the combustion process and just inject nitrous into the intake.

Since we were talking about aspiration, I was under the mistaken impression that people knew what that meant. I didn't feel the need to actually qualify my statement and say "adding a mechanical / chemical component into the oxygen supply", since "intake" implies we're talking about the airflow through the engine.

So, in other words, your fuel system has zero to do with your aspiration type. Putting a turbo or S/C onto your car doesn't force more fuel into the cylinders. It forces more air in, and the injectors force more fuel in.

[scathing]

as previously stated, in this case, you have either forced induction, or NA. Nothing to do with fuel type. you could run your car on banana peels, it'd still be NA.

Oh, so you do realise that the fuel type is irrelevant. So you've just got no idea what nitrous oxide actually does for the combustion process, then.

[slip]

i do, an i know that nitrous is not a fuel, and is generally classed on the forced induction side of things in motorsport. Putting nitrous in does not "force" more air through the induction tract. It adds an accelerant to the airstream, but does not pressuries the inlet charge into the plenum.

NA

NA + NO2

FI

FI + NO2

therefore NO2 is not FI. It's an additive/accelerant.

Put a boost/vac guage on a nitrous NA motor and see if it starts reading 10psi. It won't, because air is not being physically forced through the intake system under pressure, it is still relying on the same things as every other NA motor to 'pull' air into the cylinder. (thats very simplified, i know, but the whole point of this is very simple)

[scathing]

therefore NO2 is not FI.

Scroll back.

If you were keeping abreast of the thread, you'd know that I specifically said that I didn't think N2O was "forced induction", in the same way a compressor is. I said it was just not normally aspirated either.

So far no-one's given me a plausible justification for how chemical aspiration is "natural". All I hear is "its not FI", but not FI doesn't automatically equal NA.

Edited October 15, 2006 by scathing

[GTR Power]

No one is getting anywhere with this...scathing is not saying N20 is forced induction, he is just saying its not natural, i think you are wrong buy saying a car with n20 is not naturally aspirated.. As stated above, the car still has to breathe like any other N/A car without n20... FI = turbo, supercharger, or any other way of forcing compressed air into the engine. This must be agreed right? So therefore n20 has nothing to do with "aspiration". Long thread short

" naturally-aspirated engine (NA - aspiration meaning breathing) refers to an internal combustion engine that is neither turbocharged nor supercharged. besides drag racing etc, the fact that n20 is not 'natural' has nothing to do with weather the car breaths 'naturally' ...next time I wear my synthetic shirt in my "n/a" car ill have to remind myself that my car is still "n/a" even though I have a not 'natural' substance in the car..Haha

Edited October 15, 2006 by GTR Power

[scathing]

" naturally-aspirated engine (NA - aspiration meaning breathing) refers to an internal combustion engine that is neither turbocharged nor supercharged. besides drag racing etc, the fact that n20 is not 'natural' has nothing to do with weather the car breaths 'naturally' ...next time I wear my synthetic shirt in my "n/a" car ill have to remind myself that my car is still "n/a" even though I have a not 'natural' substance in the car..Haha

I can't believe I'm having to explain how breathing works......

Your shirt has nothing to do with the combustion process. Nitrous oxide, introducing one of the two molecules required for combustion (and, for the last time, its not the fuel), does, does so by providing oxygen. You know, that molecule that the engine would otherwise "breathe in" from the atmosphere. Which means it has everything to do with whether it "breathes" naturally, since it affects the amount of the active ingredient gathered when you draw "breath".

So, as an analogy, a person walking around on the street is naturally aspirated. A person diving under water with an air tank is not naturally aspirated. It doesn't matter if he ate carbs or simple sugars that supply the fuel used in respiration or that its supplying about 1 atmosphere of air, the fact that the air going into his lungs has come out of a tank means its not natural.

Just because our guy with the diver's tank hasn't stuck a hair dryer into his mouth and turned it on instead doesn't make it any more natural.

[Eug]

ultimately its a matter of opinion, what matters most is what the organizers of which ever event class you in.

ideally - it's a modifcation you do to what was once a stock car.

[slip]

i give up. youre trying to apply the terminology in a scientific way that doesnt adhere to the automotive world and its use of the terminology. getting caught up on technical meanings of words an applying them in irrelevant fashions - its impossible to have a discussion when you are talking a different language and trying to skew everything on technicalities of definitions. i could say that an engine doesnt breathe at all because breathing is something done by living creatures. but that would just be silly.

plus, your tank/street air doesnt make any sense. seriously. the pressure of the air is the entire point, not wether it comes through a tank or a straw - same as it doesnt make a difference if an engine breathes through a carby or an EFI system with variable length intake runners.

im out, cant convince you if you dont undertsand the language/concepts.

[NA_R33]

f**k me, quite simply

Naturally Asperated = A engine that breathes on its own ie, sucks it own air in.

Artificially Aspiraterd = The engine does not breath on its own, ie the air the engine uses is forced "into" the engine (forced inducted - Forced in)

Nitrous Oxide, Once in the combustion chamber and exposed to the relevant temperatures brakes down into two parts nitrogen one part oxygen, the extra, pure oxygen only occures once in the combustion chamber, the nitrous being inert but compresable acts as a compression buffer and decreases the strain on the engine caused from the extra power created from the oxygen.

There is no f**ken question, thats the definition as given by anybody in the automotive industry. So please disect this and tell me im an idiot and know nothing.

How hard is that to understand? You have contradicted yourself so many times. Now dont go and tell me i dont understand.. I know exactly what nitrous does how it works the chemical properties and definitions... I also have come from a Purely NA background, and would prefer to drive a good NA vehicle over any forced inducted car. Im just not shortsighted and dont let a personal bias influence a decision making process.

Edited October 15, 2006 by NA_R33