Was He The Greatest?

[Beer Baron]

schumacher is certainly the greatest of my lifetime. is he the greatest of all time? that's impossible to answer to everyones satisfaction but i have to say I struggle to think of anyone better. yes he was a dirty bugger at times, but he was also a top notch racer, tester, promo boy, interview boy, team mascot, merchandise salesman and he even sometimes had a dry german sense of humour. i have a hug amount of respect for him as a racer and a person.

[allblitz]

schumacher is certainly the greatest of my lifetime. is he the greatest of all time? that's impossible to answer to everyones satisfaction but i have to say I struggle to think of anyone better. yes he was a dirty bugger at times, but he was also a top notch racer, tester, promo boy, interview boy, team mascot, merchandise salesman and he even sometimes had a dry german sense of humour. i have a hug amount of respect for him as a racer and a person.

Perfectly said, agreed

[ctjet]

^^^

except the part where it says:

"i have a hug amount of respect for him"

[floody]

your a tool mate

you couldnt drive a greasy finger up your own asshole.

I don't like F1 drivers and racing(well, the modern era anyway) so that means I can't drive? ok.

Sorry, I just have no respect for the whole stage managed circus that it is, not to mention that its some of the most stupefyingly boring racing there is. Well, except FIA sports cars/prototypes and JGTC.

Anyway, perhaps I'm not as practised at driving a greasy finger up my own arsehole as you are with yours, Andy.

Anyone who watched the race last night witnessed the brilliance that was Michael Schumacher.

Starting from 10th on the grid, after qualifying poorly with a fuel pressure problem, he was challenging for 3rd after only 4 laps.

After a brilliant dive under brakes to overtake Fisichella, he burst his rear left tyre and was forced to tour an ENTIRE LAP at half speed and lost 70 seconds.

He then proceeded to lap in the 12.3's consistantly (faster than race winner Massa) to claw back to withing 7 seconds of the podium.

Did any of you ^^^^ even watch the race?

All that says, to me, is just how unremarkable the quality of the field is. This is all relative , as of course they are all incredibly skilled drivers. I feel I can say "x is relatively crap" without it necessarily having to mean "x is relatively crap compared to me".

Edited October 25, 2006 by floody

[hrd-hr30]

On a good day Eddie Irvine was full of it. By putting Schumacher on a plane above everyone else he (by inference) tried to elevate himself to the level of the remainder of the drivers. Don't get me wrong I have nothing but admiration for the way Irvine turned a mediocre talent into an absolute bucket load of cash (Nice one Jaguar!) but he was a gob shite. He lobbed one year at Bathurst (visiting Tomas Mezera from memory) & made his way to the commentry booth. The was a long silence after his "Bathurst is really the formula one of touring car racing" comment as the rest of the commentry team struggled to stifle their laughter. To be fair Irvine was almost certainly taking the piss.

There is a photo from Adelaide in 85 or 86, showing Senna along side Prost, Mansell, Piquet & Rosberg - the gang of five. Some pretty healthy competition. I can only hope we see the likes of it again. One of the great tragedies of Senna's death was that we never did get to see how the 94 season would have played out.

we'll never know what might have happened in 94 had Senna not had that terrible accident, but in the first race, Schumacher dominated Senna being consistently faster and winning in what was widely regarded as an inferior car, before Senna crashed out on his own. In qualifying MS got 2nd spot on the grid just three tenths behind the the legendary qualifying specialist, Senna. No one else was within a second of them. MS's team mate Verstappen was 1.9sec slower in qualifying and 9th on the grid.

In the second race, Schumacher was the only car apart from the superior Williams of Senna and Hill to qualify in the 1:10s, getting P2 only two tenths behind Senna - the legendary qualifying specialist. His team mate Jos Verstappen qualified over 2 sec slower in 10th place. In the race, Senna crashed on the opening lap. Schumacher again dominated the race winning by over a minute and setting fastest lap of the race.

At imola, the 3rd race of the season, Schuey already had a 20pt championship lead over Senna. Again he was just 3 tenths slower than Senna in qualifying. He lead Senna before the first safety car IIRC. Senna got the lead on the restart, but Schuey was pressuring him and continuing the way he had performed in the earlier races.

MS went on to win 8 of the 16 races that season. Of the 8 he didn't win, one was a disqualification at Silverstone (where he finished 2nd behind Hill), and 2 were missed serving a ban for the same offence. 3 retirements 2 races that season where Micheal finished P2. Of his 10 finishes that season, he won 8!

No point wondering what might have been, all you can say is MS showed in the first 3 races that he was as fast as Senna despite the inferior Benetton, even in qualifying, and was already dominating the championship before the tragic Imola round which claimed the lives of 2 F1 drivers.

[djb23_gtst]

Yes he is the greatest.

Its a pity that he his cut throat exploits are focussed on by the press. But as some have said here already, people forget the past and only choose the remember the positives. Senna was unmistakingly brilliant, but he was a racer and if that mean't pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable driver behaviour then Senna would push that boundary. Suzuka 1990 is a perfect example.

It doesn't' help him either that the F1 press coverage we see is typically British-based, being a German sure does have to work against the guy in that regard. And arrogant? Just because someone puts on a "face" when dealing with the sly, scheming press doesn't make someone arrogant. Determined and focussed would be a better description.

One of the best ways to recognise Schuey's skills would be to recall his first win for Ferrari in 1996. Spain, pouring rain, V10 running 1 cylinder down and he still obliterated the field in a clearly inferior car. Whenever the conditions were mixed or wet, he always shone.

Its a pity Ayrton passed away, would have been awesome to see the two of them face off in the twilight years of Ayrton's career.

Looking forward to seeing Kimi get a decent, reliable car under him and see if realise his full potential. Bring on 2007!

[djr81]

we'll never know what might have happened in 94 had Senna not had that terrible accident, but in the first race, Schumacher dominated Senna being consistently faster and winning in what was widely regarded as an inferior car, before Senna crashed out on his own. In qualifying MS got 2nd spot on the grid just three tenths behind the the legendary qualifying specialist, Senna. No one else was within a second of them. MS's team mate Verstappen was 1.9sec slower in qualifying and 9th on the grid.

In the second race, Schumacher was the only car apart from the superior Williams of Senna and Hill to qualify in the 1:10s, getting P2 only two tenths behind Senna - the legendary qualifying specialist. His team mate Jos Verstappen qualified over 2 sec slower in 10th place. In the race, Senna crashed on the opening lap. Schumacher again dominated the race winning by over a minute and setting fastest lap of the race.

At imola, the 3rd race of the season, Schuey already had a 20pt championship lead over Senna. Again he was just 3 tenths slower than Senna in qualifying. He lead Senna before the first safety car IIRC. Senna got the lead on the restart, but Schuey was pressuring him and continuing the way he had performed in the earlier races.

MS went on to win 8 of the 16 races that season. Of the 8 he didn't win, one was a disqualification at Silverstone (where he finished 2nd behind Hill), and 2 were missed serving a ban for the same offence. 3 retirements 2 races that season where Micheal finished P2. Of his 10 finishes that season, he won 8!

No point wondering what might have been, all you can say is MS showed in the first 3 races that he was as fast as Senna despite the inferior Benetton, even in qualifying, and was already dominating the championship before the tragic Imola round which claimed the lives of 2 F1 drivers.

As ever there are two sides to every argument. I don't think anyone expects to convince anyone else of anything much, but anyway.

I think you are drawing a long bow to say the Williams FW16A was markedly superior to the Benetton. Early in the year it was a noticably recalcitrant thing - particularly senstive to changes in ride height & pitch. So it could be set up to qualify well, but less so in race trim. None the less Senna still put the thing on pole 3 times from 3. He led in Brazil before an uncharacteristic off (& was miles ahead of Damon Hill) & at Aida was Liberacied by Hakkinen after Schumacher lifted off mid corner in an attempt to slow Senna's corner exit speed.

I don't think that anyone would argue that by the end of 94 the Williams was the better car, just not so at the beginning. It is perhaps worth noting that Senna went to his death believing that Benetton was still using traction control.

I wasn't so much wondering what might have been as lamenting the fact that we didn't ever get to find out.

Probably the most equal their respective cars were was in the '93 season. The Donington GP that year was probably amongst the best race that Senna ever drove. I can't remember where Schumacher finished, or even if he did. Senna was (at that race) just on another planet to everyone else. I was no Senna fan at the time, but sat absolutely transfixed through the whole thing.

Also, Senna's first victory for Lotus was pretty damn special aswell.

Edited October 25, 2006 by djr81

[hrd-hr30]

I think you are drawing a long bow to say the Williams FW16A was markedly superior to the Benetton. Early in the year it was a noticably recalcitrant thing - particularly senstive to changes in ride height & pitch. So it could be set up to qualify well, but less so in race trim.

general concesus is that it was the better car. Senna made no secret about being unhappy that the traction control had been banned. He thought it made the cars too dangerous. I've not heard anything about the 94 Williams being anything like recalcitrant before!

None the less Senna still put the thing on pole 3 times from 3. He led in Brazil before an uncharacteristic off

well, that's one way to put it. A more accurate way would be that he led in Brazil until L21 when they both pitted and Schumacher got ahead. Then Schumacher was consistently faster. Schumacher continued to lead the rest of the race. After the second round of pitstops, Senna spun (on lap 56 of 71) pushing too hard trying to catch Schuey. Schumacher was consistently faster on the day. Its hardly an accurate summary to say Senna "led in Brazil before an uncharacteristic off" - making it sound like he was in the lead when he went off and handed the win to someone else...

at Aida was Liberacied by Hakkinen after Schumacher lifted off mid corner in an attempt to slow Senna's corner exit speed.

mid corner checking is a very common and totally legitimate tatic to help ensure you get a better exit than the car behind you. No problem there. you will see it done all the time in any category of motorsport.

It is perhaps worth noting that Senna went to his death believing that Benetton was still using traction control.

why is that worth noting? FIA found electronics left in alot of cars that year, but no evidence they had ever been used in any ar. No traction control was found in the Benetton, and judging by his teammate's performance, its fairly obvious they didn't have a magic advantage. Also after the FIA checked all cars and the offending electronics were completely removed, the Benetton performance relative to the other teams didn't change. At Aida after his crash, Senna remained at the side of the track listening for tell-tale traction control from the Benetton - he begrudgingly admitted he couldn't tell... At the next race at Imola, JJ Lehto stalled his Benetton at the start, hardly likely to happen if they had launch control...

Edited October 25, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[djr81]

general concesus is that it was the better car. Senna made no secret about being unhappy that the traction control had been banned. He thought it made the cars too dangerous. I've not heard anything about the 94 Williams being anything like recalcitrant before!

I'm suprised you haven't heard it before. It is a pretty common view point. The Williams had over the previous few years been honed (In an aerodynamic sense) to function over a small bandwidth (for want of a better word). With the removal of the active everything the cars had to work over a larger envelope. The early FW16 didn't have a particularly large envelope which is why it could be made to qualify better than it raced.

well, that's one way to put it. A more accurate way would be that he led in Brazil until L21 when they both pitted and Schumacher got ahead. Then Schumacher was consistently faster. Schumacher continued to lead the rest of the race. After the second round of pitstops, Senna spun (on lap 56 of 71) pushing too hard trying to catch Schuey. Schumacher was consistently faster on the day. Its hardly an accurate summary to say Senna "led in Brazil before an uncharacteristic off" - making it sound like he was in the lead when he went off and handed the win to someone else...

Benetton routinely trounced Williams at the pitstops. They as often as not made Williams strategies look ordinary. Good luck to them for it.

mid corner checking is a very common and totally legitimate tatic to help ensure you get a better exit than the car behind you. No problem there. you will see it done all the time in any category of motorsport.

Not saying there is anything much wrong with doing it, just that it was what happenned...

why is that worth noting? FIA found electronics left in alot of cars that year, but no evidence they had ever been used in any ar. No traction control was found in the Benetton, and judging by his teammate's performance, its fairly obvious they didn't have a magic advantage. Also after the FIA checked all cars and the offending electronics were completely removed, the Benetton performance relative to the other teams didn't change. At Aida after his crash, Senna remained at the side of the track listening for tell-tale traction control from the Benetton - he begrudgingly admitted he couldn't tell... At the next race at Imola, JJ Lehto stalled his Benetton at the start, hardly likely to happen if they had launch control...

It is worth noting mostly because it sheds some light on Senna's mind set at his last race. Between that & losing his mate (Not sure how close they were really) in Ratzenberger probably was messing with his head. Maybe Senna couldn't tell about the traction control, but the FIA did find the traction control software in the ECU's of the Benettons. They couldn't prove it was used, otherwise presumably they would have thrown the book at them. Much like they did over the dodgy modifications to the fuel rig that probably caused that huge fire in the pits on Verstappen's car.

Anyway, launch control is not the same as traction control & in turn is different from anti stall. It is nothing against Schumacher in any case, but more so against the engineers in the team.

[ctjet]

wow, who would have guessed that after 5 pages of vigorous discussion, historical references and the odd one eyed supporters... we still arnt any closer to answer

[djr81]

Yeah and I was hoping to get this thing sorted for once and all BEFORE lunchtime.

It is not about convincing everyone about the righteousness of your viewpoint. It is about having a yak about F1.

[AndyMac]

2007 WDC ? Kimmi ?

[hrd-hr30]

Probably the most equal their respective cars were was in the '93 season. The Donington GP that year was probably amongst the best race that Senna ever drove. I can't remember where Schumacher finished, or even if he did. Senna was (at that race) just on another planet to everyone else. I was no Senna fan at the time, but sat absolutely transfixed through the whole thing.

In 93 the Benetton was so uncompetitive they rushed out the new car after just a few races. And McLaren got more than double the constructors points of Benneton! Hardly the most equal year...

92 seems to be the year they were in the most evenly matched machines if constructors points are anything to go by. And Schuey was 3rd in the Drivers Championship that year, his first full F1 season, ahead of Senna who was 4th in the standings and much more experienced having won the previous 2 World Drivers Championships with the same team.

[djr81]

Well in 93 both cars were on Goodyear tyres.

Both cars were powered by Ford V8's - Customer motors for the McLaren's factory for the Benetton which meant the Benetton had slightly better motors.

Senna scored 5 wins & 73 World Championship points.

Schumacher scored 1 win & 52 points.

Senna team mate was Michael Andretti who scored bugger all. Hakkinen replaced him for the last three races & by out qualifying Senna at his first return race made the Brazillian really pull his finger out.

Patrese earnt 20 points, giving Benetton 72 for the constructors.

Senna managed 73 of McLarens 84.

Not sure what you mean by double, but anyway. The difference in the 92 constructors was 8 points.

Schumacher scored a raft of podiums that year, so the Benetton was a pretty useful thing.

The 92 McLaren Honda was a bit of a dog. The V12 wasn't by any means the best thing to have, least of all when teamed with the massively conservative approach they took to all the tech Williams had by then rolled out. They started the season with an update of the 91 car, itself not the best around that year. If you look at the results from 93 Senna had three wins to Schumi's one, but suffered seven retirements (of 16 races) to the Benetton's 4.

[hrd-hr30]

Well in 93 both cars were on Goodyear tyres.

Both cars were powered by Ford V8's - Customer motors for the McLaren's factory for the Benetton which meant the Benetton had slightly better motors.

Senna scored 5 wins & 73 World Championship points.

Schumacher scored 1 win & 52 points.

Senna team mate was Michael Andretti who scored bugger all. Hakkinen replaced him for the last three races & by out qualifying Senna at his first return race made the Brazillian really pull his finger out.

Patrese earnt 20 points, giving Benetton 72 for the constructors.

Senna managed 73 of McLarens 84.

Not sure what you mean by double, but anyway.

you're right - I was looking at the wrong line in the table.

The difference in the 92 constructors was 8 points

Schumacher scored a raft of podiums that year, so the Benetton was a pretty useful thing.

The 92 McLaren Honda was a bit of a dog. The V12 wasn't by any means the best thing to have, least of all when teamed with the massively conservative approach they took to all the tech Williams had by then rolled out. They started the season with an update of the 91 car, itself not the best around that year.

in 91 Maclaren won the Constructers and Drivers titles, and the 2nd driver ran 4th in the Drivers Championships. It can't have been all bad!

[djr81]

The 91 McLaren was ok. It did score well in the first three races (Senna won them all from memory). No one really believed him when he started bitching about the car immediately after winning one of the races but sure enough the Williams came on strong in the second half of the season & he was proven right.

The common belief was that Honda made a mistake in going to the V12 from the V10. The Renault V10 for much of 91 & for all of 92 was a far better motor.

[SilverECR33]

shu is Definently Up there, awsome driver, definently worth the crown. but if senna was still around id say wouldve gave old shu a run for his money..

and makkinen was quite good also, Andretti wasnt too bad either. didnt win that many, but he was always up there too.

they should bring back TT F1's

Edited November 1, 2006 by silverbulletR33

[andylaurel]

makinnen was a rally driver tool...

Edited November 2, 2006 by andylaurel

[tomk]

Shuey had bad tactics he was always nudging other contestants when he knew his position on the track was threatened.

[legend01]

My 2c worth Senna was the man I might be a bit older than most here so I remember his racing vividly shame he died so young .When MS was racing against him he was no where to be seen and there wasn't much of an age differance between them so it was pure skill if he had of lived to the same age as MS well I know who would be on the top of my list

Cheers Peter