Was He The Greatest?

[andylaurel]

Formula one is the most boring motorsport to watch in the world. With maybe the exception of Nascar.

Nothing really happens you may get 1 or 2 brilliant over taking moves a race and thats it.

And the drivers are more concerned with money than anything else.

if you said that to my face, i'd punch you in the head.

[inissane]

I have to say he is the greatest F1 driver of all time but he has flaws like all geniuses

consistently beats teamate in same car, consistently beats his brother of similar genetic makeup, aligns himself with and helps develop top race teams like ferrari - all over very long periods of time like 15 yrs winning with benneton and ferrari

how many other drivers could have the best driver/car combination at 37 yrs of age and be punching out fastest laps with high fuel loads!

MS:

skill - top notch

consistency - top notch

passion/determination - top notch

teamwork/engineering - top notch

The only other driver who can have a case is Senna whose displays of skilled f1 driving are on par if not better than MS

thats what i reckon but yes he has done some dodgy things but it seems that was the trade off for him to be so driven, ambitious, ruthless and focussed on winning F1 races for so long

[hrd-hr30]

people forget Senna was a blatantly 'dirty' driver. Sentimentality or nostalgia seems to have made everyone forget he took Prost out in the 1990 Suzuka GP out of sheer spite after they had a coming together there the previous year which cost Senna the Championship. Senna made a lunge up the inside of Prost at the chicane with his inside wheels up on the ripple strip and ran into Prost, who was unable to continue. Senna went on to win the 89 race and thought he had won the Driver's title, but was later disqualified for the incident and the World Driver's Title went to Prost. Who said there's no justice in the world!

So in 1990, again with the championship on the line, Senna stated publicly that he was going to take Prost out if he got in front of him - this time if they both crashed out Senna would be world champion. And he made good on that promise. That was enough for Senna to win the Driver's Championship. Afterwards, he was unapologetic and made no secret that it was always his intention to take Prost out. They started from 1&2 on the grid and Senna followed Prost into the first turn and simply ran into Prosts inside rear taking him out.

yet all the bleeding-heart sentimentalists saying Schumi can't be one of the greats because of a few borderline incidents over the years all rate Senna up there despite this... just admit you don't like the man instead of trying to make out its about sportsmanship.

PS - anyone who thinks F1 is boring didn't watch this season, or simply isn't a motorsport fan.

[dezz]

people forget Senna was a blatantly 'dirty' driver. Sentimentality or nostalgia seems to have made everyone forget he took Prost out in the 1990 Suzuka GP out of sheer spite after they had a coming together there the previous year which cost Senna the Championship. Senna made a lunge up the inside of Prost at the chicane with his inside wheels up on the ripple strip and ran into Prost, who was unable to continue. Senna went on to win the 89 race and thought he had won the Driver's title, but was later disqualified for the incident and the World Driver's Title went to Prost. Who said there's no justice in the world!

So in 1990, again with the championship on the line, Senna stated publicly that he was going to take Prost out if he got in front of him - this time if they both crashed out Senna would be world champion. And he made good on that promise. That was enough for Senna to win the Driver's Championship. Afterwards, he was unapologetic and made no secret that it was always his intention to take Prost out. They started from 1&2 on the grid and Senna followed Prost into the first turn and simply ran into Prosts inside rear taking him out.

yet all the bleeding-heart sentimentalists saying Schumi can't be one of the greats because of a few borderline incidents over the years all rate Senna up there despite this... just admit you don't like the man instead of trying to make out its about sportsmanship.

PS - anyone who thinks F1 is boring didn't watch this season, or simply isn't a motorsport fan.

GAME OVER.

May aswell close the thread right now.

[Paradizzle]

^^ lol agreed, funny how when you do a little research Senna was not as 'perfect' as everyone thought.

[ctjet]

bahahahahahahahhaha

so wait... let me get this straight

Both Senna and Schumachers careers are condensed into these two moments in history and thats how you judge their respictive driving ability?

This gets better and better... keep em coming!!!

[hrd-hr30]

bahahahahahahahhaha

so wait... let me get this straight

Both Senna and Schumachers careers are condensed into these two moments in history and thats how you judge their respictive driving ability?

This gets better and better... keep em coming!!!

gold - "so wait... let me get this straight" like a real smartarse, and then proceed immediatley to totally missing the point... I love it!

[dezz]

thats good old ivan for ya. great value...i love him

[ctjet]

jesus... not you schmuck

you would have a fair grasp on their driving abilities, the comment is directed to those who didnt even know F1 existed before 2000 and feel like they are qualified to make a useful contribution to this thread.

If you have never seen watched a race with Prost, Senna or even the likes Sir Jackie you cant make a judgment call because you have no baises on with which to make a comparison

[dezz]

Ivan, I beleive what Hrd was getting at is that so many people that are posting in here hate schumacher so much, for whatever reason (a lot of them because he was so dominant no doubt) and they say its because of this and that....yet they totally ignore the facts which hrd has been kind enough to point out quite clearly, and say that Senna is/was the greatest....

[ctjet]

there is so much wrong with what you just wrote it makes my dizzy...

Ivan, I beleive what Hrd was getting at is that so many people that are posting in here hate schumacher so much, for whatever reason (a lot of them because he was so dominant no doubt)

Ask your self why he was so dominant for 4 consecutive years... your answer will be tyres

Ferrari and B/S had such a massive advantage over their rivals in terms of development it was rediculous... and the fact that Ferrari blatantly disregarded an agreement between all the teams for a testing cap. The figures will never be realeased or verified but Ferraris testing miles were double if not triple what any other team was doing at that time. When a team has unlimited resources in testing and 9 other teams agreed to limit testing as a cost saving exercise, you can now see how some people would hold a substantial grudge againt Ferrari and their ethics.

This year and last year in particular demonstrate how important tyres are... Just look at Ferrairs performance in 2004/2005. One year they were undesputed top of the tree next year they are fightng toyta for third in the champoinship. Now that there understanding of tyre regs have improved so have their performance

they say its because of this and that....yet they totally ignore the facts which hrd has been kind enough to point out quite clearly, and say that Senna is/was the greatest....

Nobody is ignoring any facts... People are free to make up their mind as to who they think is the better driver. What criteria they use is none of your or anyone elses business.

This question is unaswerable and was debated many years before schumi and will be no doubt contined long after he is gone. But as i stated previously....

If you have never seen watched a race with Prost, Senna or even the likes Sir Jackie you cant make a judgment call because you have no baises on with which to make a comparison

[dezz]

ok ivan. you're the king of F1 and its longest standing 'fan'

don't assume you know how long i've been watching F1

and people can base their opinion on whatever they want, but when they use bad sportsmanship as a criterion to say that schumacher is not the greatest driver, but Senna is, then it is my business

Also, count the teams on Michelin tyres, then count the teams on Bridgestones

[ctjet]

There you go again...you got owned by someone who acctually knows what they're talking about and now you have nothing to back youself up with. You have no historical knowedge of F1, all you know is schui schui schui!!!

Also, count the teams on Michelin tyres, then count the teams on Bridgestones

and... MY POINT EXACTLY!!! :sorcerer:

When the new tyre regs were put in place (one set of tyres for one race) B/S got pwned hard because they backed themselves into a corner by only supplying Ferrari... they had to develop all the knowedge from one team... Michelin on the other had three top teams thro which to gain data henceforth destroying Ferrair last year. Now that pit stops are back... so is ferrari!! Do you not see the linear similarities?

Any more pearls of wisdom you got hidding down there?

[dezz]

you failed to address the bad sportsmanship issue

Its ok for Senna to do it, because he's the greatest apparently...lets all ignore what he did and just label him the greatest driver ever, in all aspects.

But schumacher has done such and such, therefore cannot be the greatest driver

:sorcerer:

[ctjet]

i did address the issue...

Both Senna and Schumachers careers are condensed into these two moments in history and thats how you judge their respictive driving ability?

i said (nicely) anyone who forms their opinon on either driver because of "these two moments in history" is a fool...

Senna is the greatest in a lot of peoples opinions because he dominated the sport in an era of F1 when so many other greats like (Prost, Piquet etc) were still racing in their prime with equal or better machinary. He regularly beat the best of the best, and did it with so much ease that it really does make you stand up and cheer for the man.

Schuey dominated an era of so-so drivers with the odd champ here and there (eg Hakkinnen, and hill). Thats not schueys fault, just the cards he was dealt.

Dont be under the impression i dont like schumacher... its Ferrari i dont like. There have been moments of utter stupidity in his career, but he is still a fantastic driver. His 'win at ANY cost' mentallity was his undoing in mine and many other peoples eyes

[Master]

There are quite a few people that can drive a Formula 1 car with micheal's pace, but i can only think of a couple that have the capacity to think like he does. I hated him for what he did to Hill in 94, but grew to become a huge fan with the years that followed. I think its hard to compare drivers of different era's but you'd be a fool to think they get much better than he was.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have met the man on 2 ocassions.

[AndyMac]

Its an interesting comment that you make about Schumacher being lucky too have raced against "so-so" drivers.

Take Schumacher out of the races, say 1998-2006. Think about how close each championship then would of been.

Senna, in MY opinion stamped his mark alongside Prost, Mansell, Berger, and friends.

Could we be talking about Barrichello, or Mikki in the same vein as Senna if Schumacher wasn't around, purely becuase the top drivers shared wins more often, then the complete domination that Schumacher showed.

"To beat Michael in equal equipment isn't possible. To do it in a better car is possible, And that's what Hakkinen's done, what Damon Hill has done and what Jacques Villeneuves's done.

Michael's the best by a mile. People still don't realize how good he is"

Quoted : Eddie Irvine from :

MS:Driven to Extremes (James Allen)

[hrd-hr30]

yep, spot on. I think its laughable to suggest every other driver in F1 for the past decade or more have been below par.

[blk180]

Was he the best at his sport YES was he the Greatest NO!

i think there is a differnts between being the best and the greatest

My 2c

[djr81]

Its an interesting comment that you make about Schumacher being lucky too have raced against "so-so" drivers.

Take Schumacher out of the races, say 1998-2006. Think about how close each championship then would of been.

Senna, in MY opinion stamped his mark alongside Prost, Mansell, Berger, and friends.

Could we be talking about Barrichello, or Mikki in the same vein as Senna if Schumacher wasn't around, purely becuase the top drivers shared wins more often, then the complete domination that Schumacher showed.

"To beat Michael in equal equipment isn't possible. To do it in a better car is possible, And that's what Hakkinen's done, what Damon Hill has done and what Jacques Villeneuves's done.

Michael's the best by a mile. People still don't realize how good he is"

Quoted : Eddie Irvine from :

MS:Driven to Extremes (James Allen)

On a good day Eddie Irvine was full of it. By putting Schumacher on a plane above everyone else he (by inference) tried to elevate himself to the level of the remainder of the drivers. Don't get me wrong I have nothing but admiration for the way Irvine turned a mediocre talent into an absolute bucket load of cash (Nice one Jaguar!) but he was a gob shite. He lobbed one year at Bathurst (visiting Tomas Mezera from memory) & made his way to the commentry booth. The was a long silence after his "Bathurst is really the formula one of touring car racing" comment as the rest of the commentry team struggled to stifle their laughter. To be fair Irvine was almost certainly taking the piss.

There is a photo from Adelaide in 85 or 86, showing Senna along side Prost, Mansell, Piquet & Rosberg - the gang of five. Some pretty healthy competition. I can only hope we see the likes of it again. One of the great tragedies of Senna's death was that we never did get to see how the 94 season would have played out.