HKS Turbo's vs Garrett Turbo's...

[Guest INASNT]

yes they are, John Munro had twin 2835 on his OS 3litre

Munro is going for a new single turbo which isent a hks if i am not mistaken.

A t88 is a thrust turbo, not a HKS, and heat treatment is from NZ, i said Aus ttop 5

[Steve]

Trust make killer turbos too.

[Steve]

Then again, until Munro's car is up and running in its new trim, and records a better time than with the 2835s, it is one of austs top GTRs and with HKS turbos:p

[redline2003]

apexi rx6 turbos rnt bad either. between garret and hks id choose garrett, for the difference u pay ud hav spare $$ to buy otha mods, most of the price is just for the name 'hks' granted they r a slightly superior turbo from wat i hear

[BIGBLOCKR31COUPE]

If thats the case then i dont suppose they'd know the combination of intake/exhaust housing, bush/ball bearing, water/oil lines and various other bits and bobs.

Garrett do know but have a contract with HKS that they make alot of money from. Business is business.

The HKS turbos allow you to make more power from a simple bolt-on upgrade than the equivalent Garrett bolt-on turbo. Garrett do make turbos that will out perform the HKS turbos but these will not be quite so easy to fit. :dump:

[Steve]

Bigblockr31, which turbos to garrett make that outperform HKS?

[Roy]

If you have the coin, then KKK & Garret are two turbo brands that i know are used in European racing categories, can someone say titanium turbines! (Dont the later EVOs also use titanium wheels?)

Id love to have access to certain workshops and their turbo technology. I wouldnt be expecting huge numbers or boost levels, but awesome response. It pays to remember that most forms of motorsport have boost limits well under 1.2bar.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Guys, this is an interesting thread. Let me post some things I know from my experience, not hearsay or rumour, what I have seen with my own eyes.

I have never seen a KKK ball bearing turbo, they have all been plain bearing. Blitz turbos are rebadged KKK's.

I have never seen a Trust ball bearing turbo, they have all been plain bearing. Trust turbos are rebadged Mitsubishi's. I don't ever/will never use plain bearing non-watercooled turbos.

I have never seen an Apexi plain bearing turbo, they have all been ball bearing. Apexi turbos are rebadged IHI's.

I prefer Garrett turbos because they provide compressor maps and I can therefore easily match them to my requirements. HKS don't provide compressor maps and I refuse to guess as to whether they will suite my requirements or not. BTW Apexi, Blitz and Trust don't provide compressor maps either.

HKS say that their turbos are designed to work efficiently at over 1.5 bar. I never run more than 1.3 bar in my engines, there is simply no need. I can match the Garrett compressor airflow to make all the power at that boost level I need. I know that airflow makes power, boost is merely a measurement of resistance to airflow.

So much for what I know, now it's time for some speculation......

Why don't they publish compressor maps? They obviously have them. They say it is to keep their secrets. I say that's a load of BS. If I wanted to copy someone's turbo, I would simply buy one and take it apart. The compressor map tells me WHAT the turbo is doing not WHY, and that is what I would need to know to copy it.

Or is it that they are afraid that compressor maps will empower us to compare the airflow? Heaven forbid we might find out that we are paying twice as much for a 5% difference.

While I am having a whinge, I am not impressed with the magazines that continue to avoid answering this question. They have the resources to do it, have scouted the edges a couple of times. But they haven't gone and done a true back to back, same size turbo comparison from different manufacturers or rebadgers. It is something their readers want to know, but maybe their advertisers don't. Next time you are sending an email off to Zoom, HPI, Fast Fours, Speed etc why don't you ask them.

My 20 cents worth.

[Bobjones]

I don't know if this has been stated before cause I ran out of patience reading through some of the crap...

Garrett make turbo's for HKS to their specifications, alot of the time based mainly on high performance applications and requirements. HKS and Garrett SHARE info re turbo charger technology, and an agreement is in place that they do not produce too similar products. That is they may have the same code yet different boost and response curves etc...

Now HKS also do alot of TESTING for such large manufacturers such as nissan on the s15 and other models...while Garrett at the same time is the SUPPLIER...

At the end of the day you get what you pay for, and you have to research everything to get what you Need/Want...if you don't want to pay that much for a turbo then DON'T...

However, i would like to see a 3040 comparison as their specs are VERY close to one another...from what people can determine from dismantling the bloody things...

Oh and for the record I would prefer to get a Garrett, however a comparitive Garrett to an RS-R I am yet to locate...any info???

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, you asked Bigblockr31, "which turbos to garrett make that outperform HKS?"

Sorry to butt in, but I just can't resist. I have back to backed a HKS GT2540 and a Garrett GT25R. At 1.3 bar the 25R had more power at every RPM point than the 2540. No surprise there, HKS say more efficient at higher boost levels. So I turned the boost up to 1.5 bar on the 2540 and the engine started to detonate. Consequently I backed off the timing and added a bit of fuel to stop the pre-ignition. And guess what? As a result the 2540 made less power at 1.5 bar than the 25R did at 1.3 bar.

Want to get into boost at RPM's? The 25R made boost (ie; the vacuum gauge went positive) some 1,500 rpm earlier than the 2540.

So I can confidently say that on that particular engine, the 25R out performed the 2540 in every way. At $2,700 retail brand new, that made the 25R less than half the retail of a new 2540.

As BobJones so eloquently put it "At the end of the day you get what you pay for", pay less and get more, sounds like a good deal to me.

[Steve]

No challenge there sydneykid, I think everyone knows, including HKS that the 2540 wasnt their best peice of work - it is one turbo I definately wouldnt pay for.

I am a bit confused though how you think it costs twice as much for a HKS than a garrett. You can pick up a HKS 2835 for 3.5K new with new hks wastegate, and that is from an australian shop (just not bd4s or gcg). And from memory (not 100%) a new HKS 2530 is similar in price too, with adaptors for oil and water lines.

[Roy]

Whilst i would think that Garrett and their derivatives are technically better with their water cooling and ball bearing cores, you cant deny that the Europeans make some tasty turbo cars as well.

The GT2 Porsche and racing Porsches, the flurry of supercars out of the VW factory badged as Bugatti etc, also Audi all using KKK turbos.

Whats the reason companies like VW, Porsche, Renault are not using ball bearing turbos, that arent water cooled, in road cars and motorsport?

To the best of my knowledge the only European turbo powered sports car and/or their racing derivative using Garret turbos is Lotus (???)

Just raising a few observations of mine...im only going on what i have read in magazines like Racecar Engineering.

...and i believe the Apexi turbo on a 180SX an old school friend owns is bush bearing and isnt water cooler, how recently did Apexi start using the BB IHI turbos. (IHI are the makers of the VF23 etc STI turbos are they not?)

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, I always quote the manufacturers (or their agents) recommended retail prices. Using trade prices, discounts, specials, end of model run out, mates rates etc just confuses the matter.

Plus, in my example, the 25R fitted straight up to all the standard pipework, exhaust, heat shields ducting etc. The 2540 didn't, so it needed compressor inlet adaptors, modified heat shielding, compressor outlet fabrication, and I had to change all the water and oil pipework over to the HKS parts. Included was the fact that I had to pay extra for a 1 bar wastegate actuator and gaskets that the 25R came standard with. Hence my "double the price" comment.

Hope that clarifies

[Steve]

Sydneykid, the prices I quoted isnt mates rates, discounts, etc

And as I said, 3.5K for 2530 with bits needed to fit RB, including wastegate actuator. Must qualify, I am not 100% this is exact price, but I am pretty sure it is very close if not what they can be had for, if you buy from the right place.

I agree that HKS are more expensive than garrett, but its a price I am more than willing to pay, for the extra. It costs alot of money just to milk a few extra kw out of a car once you start pushing things a bit, so IMHO, its money well spent.

Bottom line is, what exactly are you after - if you are happy to pay a bit less, and perhaps not get the same performance, fine, nothing wrong with that. Personally, I dont mind paying a bit more (definately not twice as much) for something as important as a turbo - its the heart of a turbocharged car.

[Guest INASNT]

3.5k for a pissy little 2530 is a big ass rip off i recon. I got a GT30 rated at 600hp for $2500 new

[Sydneykid]

Hi Steve, I am not rubbing anyones' nose in anything, OK? But this is the recommended price list from HKS Australia for 2540's.

GT2540 $4312 350 46 51.7 76.2 60 50 0.60 76 53.8 47.0 T3 Internal - Skyline Type 0.64

GT2540R $4356 360 46 51.7 76.2 60 50 0.50 76 53.8 47.0 GT25 Internal - GT25 0.64

Check it out for your self at www.hks.com.au

While you are there you should have a look at the picture of the GT2540R, it has no HKS on the compressor cover, only Garrett.

[Roy]

Thats the problem, some would say beauty (those chasing big numbers) is that a 300hp turbo with internal gate does not cost half as much as a 600hp external gate turbo.

And its not realy fair to expect BD4s to cpmpete price wise. They have workshop/mechanics/insurances/taxes etc costed into their prices vs a bloke operating from home (perhaps even after hours as a 2nd job) over the internet with a lot lower overheads, which sometimes doesnt even attract all the taxes it is subject to when sold by an OZ workshop.

[Steve]

INASNT, thats ok, I got a new HKS 3037 for not much more than $2500:p

The thing is that you can get a not so pissy 2835 for similar price, or 3037 - as Roy pointed out, you dont pay alot more for a larger turbo.

I think even a GCG highflow is what $2400 exchange, with the current going rate on a good second hand RB25 turbo, thats nearly 3K for a highflow.

[Sydneykid]

Common guys, throwing prices around like this is not fair, I got a GT35R (rebuildable core) brand new for $1600. Nah Nah Nah Nah, mine is bigger, stronger, upgradeable, repairable and costs less than yours!

So what?

There is only one way to compare the cost of things and that is the manufacture's (or their agent's) recommended retail price, anything else is not repeatable or sustainable over any period of time.

Bottom line, I would have a 25R over a 2540 every time, even if they cost the same. Which they don't. I'll do a bit of digging through the old files and see if I can find another HKS bashing comparison. I am sure there is at least one more, I just have to find it.

As I said before, this is a fun thread.

[Roy]

As I said before, this is a fun thread.

Fun would be trashing around in all these cars with the turbos mentioned in this thread