intercoolers

[raasclaat]

too many conflicting stories *brain pop*

I want to source a good shortshifter soon. I was thinking maybe a group buy if people are interested in these

[rev210]

Originally posted by RB20LagWagon

Then add some timing and up the boost and you will be beating rev210 and this conversation will be over. some type of boost cut etc defender will be needed, there are some people that will do this to the ecu for pretty cheap.

Or you could put in cam gears, untuned. yeah that would be good.

good luck beating my time with this advice.

No one else has.

You RB20 boys needed hiflows to get these sort of times.

[rev210]

raasclaat,

actions speak louder than words mate. I can show you my time slips for my very stock car pulling consistant 13.5's. There are many a gtst struggling to do low 14's with the intercooler/stock turbo mentality.

[rev210]

here's a better time frame than lagwagon suggests:

If my car gets sorted on wednesday, you can come down and see a stock intercooler and turbo'd gtst keep up with the hiflow and front mount advocates. They will even have nicer and wider tyres than me.

Perhaps this might settle the argument once and for all. Operative word is 'might'

[raasclaat]

Originally posted by rev210

I can show you my time slips for my very stock car pulling consistant 13.5's. There are many a gtst struggling to do low 14's with the intercooler/stock turbo mentality.

I would definately be interested in seeing the times after your tuning, a lot of that can also depend on the driver.

But i agree with your viewpoint regarding the intercooler. I think i will follow the path of some minor changes before blowing $1.5k on one mod

[DCIEVE]

what sort of boost are you running? i was under the impression that by running the turbo at the max boost it can handle you are considerably out of its efficiency range and hence the turbo is heating the air much more than typical, the use of a sensibly sized front mount with similar length & dia. plumbing to the std unit (ie no more lag) will bring the charge air down to a reasonable temperture preventing detonation and other nasties. or in order to get the same power you can hiflow the turbo or get a bigger one, hence you dont need a cooler with as great heat transfer properties but you have to put up with the extra lag of a bigger than stock turbo

2c

[GTS-t VSPEC]

Dave,

What does a stock cooler have to do with quick times? How about we overlay our power curves once you do your run at SST then we'll see which makes the most power. The reason that the more powerful cars are slower is due to not enough traction, not the fact they have front mounts.

See'ya:burnout:

[rev210]

paul,

The most common reason 'so-called' powerfull cars run slow times is because they don't accelerate fast enough.

What!? you say. Not accellerating fast enough?

Yes.

The dyno (lovely tuning aid that it is) does not have mystic insights into a number of very important performance factors.

How long in seconds (or fractions of) does it take for the 'off boost' engine to get to it's rev where turbo spool begins?

More importantly, how long does it take for an overly large intercooler (say 150HP over sized) take in seconds to build full boost (and its peak power) after a gear change.

These questions can't be answered by the dyno. Nor can the dyno tell you what sort of benifit a lower inertia has on a motor.

However both of these things will effect the acceleration.Both of these things are basic racing 101.

How much time do you think ferrari spent on the right sized intercoolers for their turbo stable, include the turbo formula 1 era.

Back to the stock intercooler thing.

The stock intercooler IS a peice of crap. But the thing that makes it crap is the core and tank design. The postition is great, the pipes short, and the size/volume is just about right for the stock turbo.

Apply as much thought to intercooler design as turbo design and you will come out on top.

'She'll be right mate' is for people who only want to go as fast as everyone else before them. Go buy the same intercooler as your mate and don't ask why he chose that size, the odds are he doesn't know.

[rev210]

oh and to shut the 'but your a great driver' and 'but you get traction' people up...

My 13.3 was a 60ft of 2.3seconds. Not great traction and not idicative of a great driver, specially with a 1 second reaction time.

[PACEY]

All we need is love da da dadada da:p

[RB20LagWagon]

ahhh, simon did a 13.1 on standard turbo.

So why did you buy cam gears? to get that cool boy racer look?

To move the torque curve?

Not many people are going to keep their cars as they are , the hybred cores are not 'huge' they are a reasonable size, but they flow good.

Building power? maybe if you dont stall or boost off the line?

Have we got a dyno output of your car?

The standard cooler has been shown to suck after much more then 8psi, your pushing 10psi through it which is likely to be much more at the turbo.

[rev210]

I bought 1 cam gear. It increases the power and allows manipulation of the torque curve. You can't see the cam gear, it's covered by a dust cover.

Simons turbo is high flowed. Quote "I tried something different by hi-flowing the stock rb20det turbo. The result : Big top end flow , Minimal Lag."and "I ran 12.9 @ 112mph. Hi flow , intercooler , 1bar boost , exhaust."

My std cooler has 11.5psi before it at 10psi. Not much of a problem really (thats my car). Haven't tried a test at 12psi(plenum) yet to see what sort of drop is there.

When you say hybrid coolers are "..a reasonable size" what do you mean? Reasonable size ought to cover the flow rate of the intercooler as a match to the flow rate characteristics of the choice of turbo. Thats the only point I am making, well that and GTR intercoolers and others rated at 500HP are silly upgrades for a stock turbo R32.

The one area no one has made argument to me on is; that I don't know the flow rate of the hybrid cooler, so how can I say that they aren't a perfect match?

You see I could be wrong. I'll reserve judgement on the 'hybrid' stuff, unitl someone produces a flow rating that puts it one way or another.

[giz01]

A.R.E. has smaller coolers! www.A.R.E.com.au

[RB20LagWagon]

And i said 13.1 on standard turbo. not 12.9

When you get your dyno figures it might make more sense, but perhaps this is a case of more is less

[EnricoPalazzo]

I just dont understand how u can make more power from an aftermarket I/C yet somehow run slower times.

I think it comes down to shit drivers. Obviously Rev is a good driver and the others that cant get those timesarent as good as him.

To say making more power and run slower times is obsured.

Rev: Explain this to me, and not about a lag factor, cos the difference between a/m and stock coolers lag is meant to be very minimal.

[rev210]

EnricoPalazzo,

the dyno (and the power figure it provides) are not the be all and end all of perfomance factors that effect your car. I think you can appreciate this. The power curve is also important if the gearing is not tollerant to a sharp peak.

Your right about the 'lag' being no different. The same rpm is required to spool the same turbo regardless of the intercooler.

What about how quickly the engine revs?

This is the very thing that is 'acceleration' - translated from engine to drivetrain and the car. It effects the 0-100 and 1/4mile etc.

A light flywheel won't show any gain up on the dyno.

Will it improve acceleration?

Yes.

Will the turbo spool at a lower or higher RPM (Lag)?

No.

Now for intake piping volume...

The volume of the total intake run from turbo to inlet valve effects the 'time' it takes for air to reach the 'combustion disco' at a particular pressure and volume rate. The stock hardware is a represents a very low total volume Vs the GTR cooler and pipe work. I think I remember sydneykid doing some very basic calculations on this. The stock turbo produces only 300HP worth of air flow max, in fact the turbo spends most of its acceleration time working up to this peak so infact the bulk of accelleration time is spent with much less than 300HP worth of air being pumped through.

Another real world example is the old 13B turbo boys getting under 10sec using IDF webber drawthrough turbo's. Faster at the time than the intercooler efi boys (who were making more power too).

[rev210]

Originally posted by RB20LagWagon

And i said 13.1 on standard turbo. not 12.9

When you get your dyno figures it might make more sense, but perhaps this is a case of more is less

My bad. Sorry

I don't think we will see very much power out of mine.

The highflow you guys have is pretty damn good for the bucks I must say.

[EnricoPalazzo]

Hmmm, Interesting Rev.

I do agree with the lightned Flywheel mod thou. This would obviously allow the engine to rev quicker up and down, ie the mod is only beneficial if the driver can change gears without dropping out of the turbos rev range.

Make sense? Is the diffence in time from idle to rev limiter noticeable? And also is the drop in revs noticeable aswell?

I understand what you say about Dyno figures aren't everything. I agree mostly, and when i had my car dynoed, i was concerned about 2 things, Boost it was running at max power and AFRS. The max power figure was a bonus.

[rev210]

Flywheel -- the mod is benificial to any average driver.

On the time side of things, 0.5sec is quite alot in 1/4mile terms.

[RB20LagWagon]

rev on the street and on the track the way a car makes its power will make a difference, at the drag strip however, where you are going to be in your powerband for more or less the whole race if your a decent driver. I say your times have more to do with driving style then mods.