R32 Breaks

[who's next]

good day,

i would like to get some advice.

I have a cefiro which i just put on the r32 gtr front brakes, now i have bleed all the lines several times and i am not getting any brakes, the peddle is soft real soft, i even took of the r32 callipers and press them in and put them back and mashed the peddle they work so its not that, i have used about 2 tins in brake fluid to bleed the lines i even replaced the rubbers in the master cylinder and still there is no brakes, not seeing any visible leaks, and i did not have this problem before i changed the brakes, the only issue i had sometimes was the peddle being hard which indicates a bad booster. so i am thinking it might be the booster so i got one from a r33 did not hook it up as yet, another thing i noticed was that when the car is off and u pump the brakes it gets hard and as soon as u start the car it goes soft all the way down to the flooring.

any ideas as 2 what might be causing this problem

thanks

[huddy]

make sure lines arent leaking?

definitely sounds like a master cylinder issue - have you upgraded to suit the larger calipers?

assuming you've done discs etc aswell to suit

[who's next]

yeah i got the disc to go with the callipers, i did not upgrade the master cylinder, i only changed the rubbers in it as everything else looked fine, i have the r33 cylinder which i could use i would just have to get the lines made for it to work, but my thing is why it was working before and when i put on the new brakes i getting this problem

i would check for leaks like u suggest

thanks

[SKY031]

Are the calipers on the correct side?

If you've got left and right mixed up, you can bleed them until the cows come home, and you'll never get any pedal pressure.

[BenA31]

Are the calipers on the correct side?

If you've got left and right mixed up, you can bleed them until the cows come home, and you'll never get any pedal pressure.

I'll second this (meaning when mixed up, the bleeders are on wrong side as in top/bottom of the caliper), I've seen someone do this, when they realised what they had done wrong it was rather humorous.

[huddy]

hmm yes good point - i did this also lol - luckily a mate pointed it out before i finished fitting them up LOL.

If you source a 32 GTST master to suit the bigger brakes it will be a direct fit also. So no need to modify the lines.

-Matt

[Resin]

have you pumped the brake pedal while the car is turned on?...does the pedal get hard then?

my feeling is like huddys which is the master cylinder is too small (not the booster) What car is it? ...was it a non turbo cefiro at all ?

or failing that try sky031 and skypy's ideas first as its probably easier.

[Ceffy_SA]

Had the same trouble with my Ceff, put the R33 N/A front rotors on, then the R32 turbo calipers connected them all up then tried to bleed the system and found that no matter what i did there was no brake pedal so to speak.

I have also found that the std brake lines are not the correct fitting for the R32 calipers (they use a banjo bolt, R32s do not) and that the std brake lines were slightly too short on full steering lock.

im assuming that the R32 calipers have a marking on them indicating which side they go on, i dont see how having the calipers on the wrong side would affect braking so much...

[Dan_J]

well bleedin is a 2man job, ones push's the brake while another closes the hole

jus 2 let u mo

[gtrchick]

Well, assuming you have bled the brakes properly, and their are no leaks, id say its your master cylinder, because the gtr cyl and booster would be different to the standard one you have currently in the car in regards to the amount of fluid being displaced in the cylinder. I figure since you upgrading your brakes to be bigger you should upgrade the master cylinder to be bigger.

But thats just a suggestion, im possibly wrong on this one.

[dangerous_daveo]

That and 15+ yo brake lines... and everything else. Did you get the calipers rebuilt too before putting them in? Not that its going to be that, but it sure as hell cant be helping.

[who's next]

Sky031 - how would you know which is the left and right side? does the nipple have a correct spot in that it should be on top vs the bottom of the calliper, like what Skypy12 suggested?

Huddy - i would try to get the 32gtst set up to see if it helps.

Resin - its a A31 non turbo cefiro, i am upgrading the car piece by piece, getting everything ready for when i go rb25det,

Ceffy SA - its the same problem that u had, how did u fix it? yeah the lines are different so i changed them to match the r32 callipers. but how did u get rid of your brake problem?

Gtrchick - i think you are right, i would upgrade the booster and master cylinder

dangerous daveo - no i did not get them rebuilt as they looked like they were in good condition.

Thanks for all the suggestions, i would try them till i solve my problem as i like how the brakes look on the car and there is no way i going back to the stock callipers and rotors

Edited December 13, 2006 by who's next

[BenA31]

Sky031 - how would you know which is the left and right side? does the nipple have a correct spot in that it should be on top vs the bottom of the calliper, like what Skypy12 suggested?

Below should shed some light on this....

The booster will change the amount of effort that goes into the pedal(Smaller booster = harder pedal and vice versa). But if you have a soft pedal and you can pump it upto being hard then your problem I would have said it's your master cylinder(or there is air in the lines somewhere). The turbo and non turbos skylines use masters with a different sized bore (gtst stock is 1")

check the side of your masters for the part nubmers to work out bore size

BM44 is 15/16

BM50 is 1"

BM57 is 1 1/16"

Youd want BM44 minimum but preferably BM50.

thinking about it more if it was the master you would just get a long pedal. meh too tired to think straight.

went to buy a z32 master cylinder it's different. The A31 has 3 brake lines comming from it and the Z32 has only 2 its a BM57

For starters, make sure you have the calipers on the correct sides (bleeder at the top of the caliper) I've seen it done before and you get a very long/shitty pedal as you can never get all the air out. Thats just one thing to check before you start spending cash, as we all have our blonde moments and do stupid things.

Next go grab yourself some of those plastic brake hose clamps to diagnose the problem. Clamp off all 4 lines. The pedal should feel normal.

so check that first before proceeding

The a31 master will have 2 lines for the front brakes whare as the z32 will have the single line which will be split into 2 at a junction box. You can get around this by installing a junction box but will require altering your brake lines. Then you can take both fronts off theck the then both rears ect you get the picture

Then if it is the master and you really cant find one to suit go get your master bored out if you end up having no luck, but abit of a pricey option. But surely there is another master out there to suit.

A 4 piston caliper will normally have more surface area to move under brake pressure so the brake pedal will have to travel further to overcome knockoff and make contact. No surprise it is soft. A larger master cylinder bore size should make it better. This is why brake mods are best left to the pro's, or at least get the right advice. You could completely unbalance the braking effort from end to end causing a major loss of control.

The common misconception that 4 piston calipers will magically give better braking with nothing else done is cause for real concern.

Edited December 13, 2006 by skypy12

[who's next]

hey thanks, this is some good reading/info. thanks again

[4DoorWhore]

ok ill put my 2 cents in since i have a NA cefiro with a GTSt 5lug and brake swap....

i had the same issue... My reason was my MS was clogged and needed a rebuild...

the NA cefiro has a stock S13 size MS this will clamp the brakes with enough pressure to lock them (had to use the stock cause my GTSt MS was bad) but if you like super hard pedal then you should change it... note: a Z32 cylinder works also... u need the cylinder with two outlets for the front and one for the back... so good rule of thumb when looking for a new one.. oh and make sure you get a RHD cylinder haha i know how tempting those cheap z32 cylinders are on ebay haha...

and a smarty remark... you can bleed brakes with only one person if you have one of these

Edited December 13, 2006 by 4DoorWhore

[Ceffy_SA]

I didnt fix the problem in the end, my brake upgrade is still sitting in the garage, im going to get custom brake lines made up to size from someone like enzed to be on the safe side, and yea i had someone helping me bleed the brakes to no avail.

[huddy]

Jinman on ns.com did the brake upgrade on his s13 - he had adr approved braided lines fitted - cost around 120 pair i think... maybe send him a PM lyndon?

[SKY031]

Good work skypy...

For starters, make sure you have the calipers on the correct sides (bleeder at the top of the caliper) I've seen it done before and you get a very long/shitty pedal as you can never get all the air out. Thats just one thing to check before you start spending cash, as we all have our blonde moments and do stupid things.

Thanks for finding that, it saved me a trip to the shed, and it's going to be about 48° out there under that tin roof at the moment.

They will fit on OK, they will appear to be bleeding fine, but unless the bleeder is at the top, you'll never get any pedal pressure.

[daisu]

As has been suggested before, bleed nipples need to be at the top of the calliper.

They will work with the standard master cylinder, but you will loose alot of pedal travel (feels similar to air in the lines). Feels alot better if you upgrade to R32 master cylinder.

If you use the R32 banjo bolts and flexible hoses with your R32 callipers, you can connect them to the S13/A31 solid line where it enters the wheel arch, which means no modifications to fittings etc.

Maltech make ADR approved braided lines (they also do cheaper rubber lines), they are very professional.

I find it quicker and easier to bleed my brakes by myself. I've bled them the proper way with 2 people before, and it doesn't seem to make a difference. I don't use a fancy kit, just some clear rubber hose and a small clear container.

Edited December 14, 2006 by daisu

[4DoorWhore]

S13 steel-braided lines will fit, the length is fine...