P-plate Laws

[scathing]

How about an experiment where all the P-platers,and that includes the girls ,draw a line on a piece of paper with the name Michael Shumacher on one end and the name of the dumbest person you know on the other.Now put a dot where you think you should be on the line.Guaranteed all of you are one inch from Michaels name.

How about we do another experiment with a whole bunch of old fogeys complaining about the "youth of today", and ask them if they're senile and out of touch with their progeny, and then see how many of them think they're still lucid?

[350z]

just a quick note to say our roads minister is a cock head

he's finally hitting on something now though, making the time to get your p's longer. it has always seemed that the main problem is inexperience and just all around younger drivers being immature and not knowing how to control the situation - if something f***ed up happens or if they cause something f*** up to happen

when it comes down to it - you can speed in any car, one drink isnt gona hurt most people, zero tolerance for speeding just puts more pressure on them.. and thats just 3 of the f**ked rules the guy has come up with.

everytime i see him on the tv it shits me and makes me want to get into my car and go rip fats on his lawn - and im not even on my p's - but if something f**ked happens, i think its safe to say ive been driving long enough to know how to CONTROL the situation (i.e. - i know where the brake is?)

the guys just f***ed - its just a shame it has taken this long but now maybe we'll see some progress if this new rule comes into play

thats just my 2 cents heheh sorry just venting after watching this guy fail over and over, but still be employed??

i can find better ways to waste my tax $ than pay for that c**ts sallery?

backkk on topic? -

Edited January 14, 2007 by 350z

[123456]

Just thought i'd point out that P-Platers have better reflexes (they peak at 16/17) are quicker thinking, generally are more flexible and have better eyesight than older people... They may not have the experience, but what level of experience is most drivers attaining.. Experience with changing lanes in traffic.. All these people saying that they realise only now how bad a driver they were on there P's must have been horrible. I'm not saying that i'm an awesome driver, but i know how to control my car alot better than 90% of people i know, and i'm far more worried about speed limits and pedestrian crossings.. People who never push there car don't learn how to control there car in my opinion.. And seeing as this thread clearly shows that we P-Platers are an irresponsible lot who push our cars all the time.. we should be able to control them better, when we get in real trouble..black spur ftw..

Edited January 14, 2007 by 123456

[4door_Sleeper]

Just thought i'd point out that P-Platers have better reflexes (they peak at 16/17) are quicker thinking, generally are more flexible and have better eyesight than older people... They may not have the experience, but what level of experience is most drivers attaining.. Experience with changing lanes in traffic.. All these people saying that they realise only now how bad a driver they were on there P's must have been horrible. I'm not saying that i'm an awesome driver, but i know how to control my car alot better than 90% of people i know, and i'm far more worried about speed limits and pedestrian crossings.. People who never push there car don't learn how to control there car in my opinion.. And seeing as this thread clearly shows that we P-Platers are an irresponsible lot who push our cars all the time.. we should be able to control them better, when we get in real trouble..black spur ftw..

This has to be a P Plater comment.

1. Reflexes make little to no difference, most people are around 0.7 seconds on reaction tests and in that time the accident has already happened, its about predicting what will happen not reacting to what is happening (this is where experience counts, and why inexperienced drivers have more accidents - they just don’t see it happening until its too late.

2 pushing your car to its limits can only be done on a track, yet many P platers do it on the road. In testing your skills and the limits of your car you put others in danger.

3. A good driver need NEVER reach the limits. Its usually an inexperienced driver that gets themselves into such situations where they find their skills don’t measure up. Avoid getting into trouble more than worrying about how to react to it.

Edited January 15, 2007 by 4door_Sleeper

[siksII]

Just thought i'd point out that P-Platers have better reflexes (they peak at 16/17) are quicker thinking,

Young drivers may be quicker thinking, but this quicker thinking by no means always results in the RIGHT decision!

I'm not saying that i'm an awesome driver, but i know how to control my car alot better than 90% of people i know,

Yeah right, have you seen them all drive at 10/10ths?

People who never push there car don't learn how to control there car in my opinion..

Fair call about car control, but have you ever really pushed your car? Or are you talking about the street?

we should be able to control them better, when we get in real trouble..black spur ftw..

We should be able to control them better?? Typical overconfident driver. Have you been to any sort of driving course with professionals to see how good at 'control' you really are?

[skylinecouple]

I agree with Scathing that the old are as bad as the young but experience will save the old in most instances,what about the young with no experience.As 4door Sleeper has tried to point out,accidents are avoided before they happen.Michael shumacher could not avoid another car if he doesn`t know it`s comming nor an oncomming car suddenly hitting him head on.But a P-plater could I`m sure, just ask one.Accidents happen because there IS no time to react or the car has reached a point where it cannot be brought back under control.By the way, and it`s just my opinion but why is it most P-platers have accidents with other people in the car. Because those passengers are egging the driver on or the driver is showing off.Simply remove the passengers from the car.Delete the red and green P`s and go back to the system I grew up with, one point on P`s, fullstop, no excuses.

[scathing]

Young drivers may be quicker thinking, but this quicker thinking by no means always results in the RIGHT decision!

Truth.

[skylinecouple]

Oh, and when I suggest going back to one point I mean you lose that point for speeding or neg driving, not a broken tail light or bald tyre.

[scathing]

And seeing as this thread clearly shows that we P-Platers are an irresponsible lot who push our cars all the time.. we should be able to control them better, when we get in real trouble

I used to have the attitude that if you do something for long enough, eventually you should get to a point where you don't suck at it. Experience has shown me that this is not the case. That's the difference between the young and the old.

As 4door_Sleeper said, a more experienced driver is more likely to see when a dangerous situation will occur, and button off. The younger driver might be able to recover from more "moments" behind the wheel with the reactions of youth, but the older driver is less likely to get into them in the first place.

And the Black Spur is hardly the place to be learning the finer points of car control. They're blind switchbacks, there's zero run off, and there's a lot of trees. During the day you get a shitload of traffic, and at night the lack of light (artificial or natural) means you have no visibility. You can't learn to push your car to the limit on a road like that. You'll always have to hold back a bit, just in case. If you don't have a fair amount of experience behind the wheel and you reckon you go flat out to learn on a road like that you're either slow, some kind of "driving God" freak of nature, or living on borrowed time.

[predator]

he's finally hitting on something now though, making the time to get your p's longer. it has always seemed that the main problem is inexperience and just all around younger drivers being immature and not knowing how to control the situation - if something f***ed up happens or if they cause something f*** up to happen

I fail to really see how that actually helps, by extending the P-plater, L-plater limits or anything like these sort of steps. All it does is prolong the period in which people have to work around the tough restrictions of not being able to carry their friends around at night, try and not attempt 1km/hr over the limit, etc. And risk takers will still be risk takers. It won't necessarily make them a better driver, just maybe get them past that initial period. The P-plater period doesn't "teach" you anything, you just wait until you're done, maybe learn by mistakes, then instant full-license and off you go.

If they really don't like young people driving around, make the legal driving age 21 or something. Age 18 is probably the worst possible time to give a person a license! thats the time you're going out till stupid late hours, getting drunk 24 hours a day, drugging, impressing your mates, chicks, etc all because you suddenly can all of these things at once.

The problem I see, is that the way you get your licence is very superficial. It's mostly a written test, which only teaches you the road rules. Now the driving part of the test pretty much just teaches you how to start the car, take off without stalling, park, probably reverse park, use your indicators, etc. This doesn't really make you a safe driver, or good driver that doesn't make a mistake.

For a start it doesn't teach you crash avoidance, what to do if you get in a skid situation, sliding in wet conditions or anything such as that - these are the things that actually might save your life if you do get in an uncontrolled situation (driving perfectly normally). Instead it's just "well don't ever get into that situation, but if you do well, work it out eh."

The L's period is a bit of a joke, as nobody ever does anything with their parents in the car, and worst of all, are parents really the best drivers to teach their kids?? By the time they're late 30's, 40's, etc anyhow - they've well forgotten most of the finer points of the road rules, and probably wouldn't know what to do in an accident situation half-the-time themselves, never mind passing it onto their kids to learn. And lets face it, there are plenty of scumbag parents out their own just can't be f**ked teaching their kids properly or letting them drive 100 hours or whatever it is. In an ideal world, all parents are good parents, but well, world isn't like that.

Wow you can park, you can start a car.. then you give p-platers the text 2-3 years to "work it out". Nice one.

We shouldn't be just blindly trying these things willing nilly in the hope that some of them may work, but instead looking towards more forward countries in Europe, where driving training is a much more integrated part of society. Make it an extra compulsory subject in school for a year, make it a multi-staged process, and ideas such as these. These sort things would be more forward thinking than simply punishment.

[HolyEvil]

read a few of the comments.. here's some of my views..

the 50 hrs that a L driver need to collect in their book be make compulsary to be proper driving schools.. not parents, not friends who have gold or silver licenses.. must be proper driving schools..

the only downside of this suggestion is the cost of getting a license.. it'll increase several fold.. but at the cost of the license being dearer.. you'll get proper lessons n such (provided it's a competent teacher of course)

and also get some defensive driving aspect into the normal teaching course (rather than a seperate course all together)

that's my only comment..

cheers

[Adriano]

I think it is ironic that the nrma is backing this no points rule, when as soon as you lose your liscence, they wont reasonably insure you for ages. I think that a lot of beaurocracy is a massive waste of money, imagine all the money that has been spent on this debate, hundreds of government employees, some of whom get paid a lot to come up with these ideas, spending hundreds of hours in meetings, and private contract companies doing feasability studies, how about we put all that money towards some cheap motorsport for young drivers. I would love to do a tarmac motorkhana, low speed driver control, can be done wet or dry i dont care. They used to do these in carparks, still do in england by the hundreds. I have never seen or heard of this in sydney, except a few on the skidpad at oran park. I find a thrash on the track settles me down for a while, but if i could spend $40 within 30min drive on a weekend, id probably go every weekend.

[scathing]

I would love to do a tarmac motorkhana, low speed driver control, can be done wet or dry i dont care. They used to do these in carparks, still do in england by the hundreds. I have never seen or heard of this in sydney, except a few on the skidpad at oran park.

There's a NSW Motorkhana championship. Can't find any info on it online, though.

And Aaron McGill runs skidpan sessions as a part of his Automotion driver training. If you can get enough people interested, he can always put on a day for you.

The NSCC runs a motorkhana once a year, as well as being invited by the LBMCC for a friendly comp with the WRX club.

I'm sure there are more, if we go and have a look.

[NicsR33]

[ rant ]

i dont think its a bad idea. i mean, when i was on my reds only a year or so ago we only get 4 points. if u get caught doing 15 and under now a days thats 3 points off, and on a double demerit weekend thats it your licence is gone so its not that different to whats happening now. you understand that if you give a young driver "one more chance" then next time they might not simply walk away with a ticket.

i still believe (which has worked great in NZ and other countries) is the passenger restrictions. no one in their right mind "shows-off" to themselves when they are the only ones in the car. take this scenario: you leave a club, its 2am and ur restricted to no passengers. your not going to speed and act like a d*ckhead u just wanna get home and get to bed. if you had mates in the car you would go hooning around and carrying on.

ill tell you wats bs thou. ive been with JustCars for over 3 years now. my gf's brother who is with AAMI recieved a free "advance driving course" for an afternoon. i wanted to be insured with AAMI originally but they couldn't because of the car i drive so they recommended JustCar (which is a branch of AAMI). i emiled AAMI to see if i could have an "advanced driving course" offer or one at a reduce price because i really want to test the limit of my car in a controlled environment. they came back to me and gave me the usual "JustCar is a subgroup of AAMI and do not offer this service". my gf's brother has lost his licence twice and been caught for street racing and speeding numerious times yet he gets these privilages. plus he drivers a shitbox VR commodore. doesn't make sence i mean how much could it cost a car insurence company to organse an advance driving course for all its customers at one stage or another.

[ / rant ]

[siksII]

[ rant ]

ill tell you wats bs thou. ive been with JustCars for over 3 years now. my gf's brother who is with AAMI recieved a free "advance driving course" for an afternoon. i wanted to be insured with AAMI originally but they couldn't because of the car i drive so they recommended JustCar (which is a branch of AAMI). i emiled AAMI to see if i could have an "advanced driving course" offer or one at a reduce price because i really want to test the limit of my car in a controlled environment. they came back to me and gave me the usual "JustCar is a subgroup of AAMI and do not offer this service". my gf's brother has lost his licence twice and been caught for street racing and speeding numerious times yet he gets these privilages. plus he drivers a shitbox VR commodore. doesn't make sence i mean how much could it cost a car insurence company to organse an advance driving course for all its customers at one stage or another.

[ / rant ]

Ive did that course a few years ago, and spectated about 1 year ago while a friend did a course at the same venue..

If you have a parent insured with aami it is free if you are under 21 (thats how i got it free)

Its a good course to do, especially if you have not been to any sort of skidpan or track event before, but dont expect an adrenaline rush of a day

They focus on the basics and at low speed, most exercises are done easy below 60km/h. Braking, emergency maneuvers and some cornering but you cant fool around Either way i recommend it and it will probably be an eye opener.

This course run by Murcotts is very similar, $277 but they have had specials in the past where it is $99

http://www.murcott.com.au/defensivedrivinglevel1.php

[123456]

Get your mum in the car in the wet driving a lil to fast and i guarantee either a spinout or some aqua planing into a pole. I know many women drivers who've been driving for 10+ years and still dont understand that if the reverse, everythings reversed.. i know many 80 year olds with the most horrible of reflexes, that drive 40 below the limit and change without indicating.. I know alot of 30 year old camry-drivers who have no idea what to do when the brakes lock up..

You have to remember that when most of the people in this thread were growing up, the fastest car was a Ford T-Bird, and cars have come a long way.. People learn in faster cars.. What may have been too much power for P-Platers back then is the standard in cars now..

Body roll isn't often a major contributing factor in a collision anymore either lol..

You also have to remember theres only so much someone can learn through getting old.. People say you learn stuff (while driving) every day.. u don't.. U don't suddenly learn to bunnyhop a bike or how to control it off a jump.. You learn these things by trying it out..

Ne ways this debate can go on forever.. Specially since theres alot more 40 year olds on this site than p platers

[Pauly33GTS-t]

You are all being too harsh.

I have my full licence now after 3 years on my P's I got my licence extended for 1 WHOLE YEAR because i got picked up for having parker lights on instead of full lights. A extremly TRIVIAL fine and I had to wait 1 FULL YEAR.

P Platers in some to most cases DO control their car and are better drivers. But you will find when they CHOSE to is a rarity. What we need is a stronger LAW presence on the roads.

I am a better driver than most of you, dont think I am cocky and overconfident, I say this because I see other people (maybe not you) on the road and driving like they dont have a f**kING CLUE and this happens all the time around me, when im driving or in passenger seat.

To all you wankers that sit in the right hand lane picking your nose when there isnt any need to be in the right hand lane

- To all you people that like to use their mirrors only when changing lanes, dont set the mirrors up correctly and never check their blind spot

- To all you drivers out there who get a rush of blood to the head whenever you see a Skyline or any other cool car that you wish you had when you are driving your shit Mirsubishi Colt and trying to overtake when there is no point

- To all you drivers that find the f**king NEED to cut people off and ignore the ARROWS ON THE f**kING TARMAC HIGHLIGHTING WHAT YOU CAN AND CANT DO IN A LANE!!!.

- And finally. to all you drivers that do 45-50 on a 60 road and think its safer... you are only creating a time bomb behind you.

YOU f**kING DAYS ARE NUMBERED.

[scathing]

one in their right mind "shows-off" to themselves when they are the only ones in the car. take this scenario: you leave a club, its 2am and ur restricted to no passengers. your not going to speed and act like a d*ckhead u just wanna get home and get to bed. if you had mates in the car you would go hooning around and carrying on.

Lets say you'd otherwise carry 4 people home. Now instead of having 4 guys in 1 car, you've now got 4 guys in 4 cars.

So you're saying that if they're all in one car that the designated driver will "hoon around and carry on", but if they're all following each other down the road and lining up at the lights that they'll be driving Miss Daisy? No chance of showing off?

Riiiiiiight

[predator]

Worst of all, good chance one of is drunk, as no longer designated drivers are allowed... thinks "oh well, doesn't matter if I get caught being an idiot, as I've been drinking and going to lose my license anyhow - but what can I do, I've got to get home to get to work tomorrow".

So I'm sure this is going to result in a few deaths in itself..

[4door_Sleeper]

- And finally. to all you drivers that do 45-50 on a 60 road and think its safer... you are only creating a time bomb behind you.

60 is the MAXIMUM speed, (not the expected speed) and if the driver considers that speed is unsafe they SHOULD drive slower. I have been behind these drivers and it can be agrivating, but consider if they are that bad at 45, how dangerous would they be at 60.

I wouldnt be opposed to driving tests for everyone whenever you renew your licence to get drivers who are no longer safe on the roads off of them.