Your Ecu Choice

[Mr. Keets]

Maybe its time workshops start offering packages with stages of 'safe' BHP gain and the hardware to match so theres less room for error+ easier maintanance. plus refuse to touch randomly modified cars with lacking 'hardware'.

If you, and i mean anyone, was to speak to one of the established tuners they would find that there is..its just not codified on a sign in front of their shops...they know what it is and they size you up ...what does he really want or is that need, does he really have that kinda coin, is he an idiot!. Dont know about RB25s but for the RB26 there is enough conventional wisdom to say that for reliability, over x hp you want this block and this oil pump or to run xRPM you want this particular spec of crank and rods. You see variations on the theme throught the 400rwKw combos I see posted on SAU.

I agree that if tuners were to offer "buffet" selections there would be greater reliability and this would create confidence in the resale market. But unfortunately, people like to fiddle with tune ups (boost, AFR etc) and then things get unreliable. I know one tuner talks people out of permanently hooking up their PFC commander to avoid this issue. Perhaps that is why some tuners of Motec dont like to give out the code...or is that to ensure return business?

Another factor against this is the price. I think posting a sign that say "all the fruit-daily driver! 400Kw at the wheels-$25K" would scare people way from the shops. Hell when I first got my R it went in for and oil change and came out with a PFC and 3 inch exhaust you've got to strip people of their money slowly...its a buy on emotion-rationalise later deal. In the end people have the right and the mechanism to fiddle with their cars...thats how we end up making discoveries. Frank Zappa said it best..."without deviation progress is not possible"...but there is always a price to pay

[teejay]

You could never ever ever offer safe hp packages.

People drive their cars differently - I for one am an animal on machinery

People service their machinery at different times with different brands

You could get a bad batch of fuel, defective set of plugs.

Mechanical things can just fail from casting issues which time simply brings to the fore.

In other words no workshop in the world going to sell you a safe hp package.

[Mr. Keets]

safe hp package=safe handgun. It all depends on how its handled

[kidd]

You could never ever ever offer safe hp packages.

People drive their cars differently - I for one am an animal on machinery

People service their machinery at different times with different brands

You could get a bad batch of fuel, defective set of plugs.

Mechanical things can just fail from casting issues which time simply brings to the fore.

In other words no workshop in the world going to sell you a safe hp package.

sup TJ long time . this the kinda stuff that gets u into hot water/arguments, but the forum/import scene would be boring without u. I put safe in quotes for the reasons u stated, and if u set out to 'sabotage' any engine it will eventually give up, z-tune included which some of us consider the holy grail. and a lot of workshops offfer safe hp packages. since u are into subarus ill refer u to the litchfield which im sure you already know of http://www.type-25.co.uk/ thats one example i can mention.

keets I agree with you and yes the workshops know what they are doing, but theres too many variations to achieve similar goals (I blame hyper rev). and we all know which ones work best but some ppl seem to ignore these just to be different. It would also be easy to cross the pits if all the packages were approved by some govt body. We can drink and argue this one day

so its a customer problem (regarding the fiddling) and not a tuners issue, Cos I dont think anybody has a right to fiddle with a tune after it has been performed. At some stage we need to seperate DIY from this section of mods and realize your fiddling with 30k or whatever you paid for your car. Guess power FCs/EBC should come with passwords. and yes the 25k mods sign would scare away folks, thats why I predicted bankwrupcy. but 'buffet mods' would reduce costs eventually. and it doesnt have to be major stuff. Bolt on parts should come in kits as well.

Edited February 6, 2007 by kidd

[rev210]

reliable horsepower package = factory showroom floor and warranty.

People with 'reliable horsepower' in mind need to really start and end the search there.

People who live with modified cars are bi-polar depressed types like me. Sky high one minute and in tears the next.

[kidd]

reliable horsepower package = factory showroom floor and warranty.

People with 'reliable horsepower' in mind need to really start and end the search there.

People who live with modified cars are bi-polar depressed types like me. Sky high one minute and in tears the next.

LOL @ rev, im sure you would be tempted by one. not trying to change anyones minds. but alot of people in a 2jz forum would disagree. guess its a skyline thing. If only those group A rules didnt exist we would never have the RB26 but a more flexible RB28. same way the WRX is at its best at 2.5 when for WRC reasons had to stick to 2.0.

back to ECU/engines reimax got new stuff and have updated the 400R RBX 2.8L engine to handle 600hp

and it seems like you can sort of build your own ztune from nismo (2.8L), but not get the chassis equipment

lumpy rom seems to be the safest on the list when it comes to tampering

Edited February 6, 2007 by kidd

[Denver]

Perhaps that is why some tuners of Motec dont like to give out the code...or is that to ensure return business?

Its more to get return business im guessing, or to avoid other tuners getting the info off the ecu of your tune

However, its actually your property, the tune that is, you've paid good money for the tune, the intelectual property is yours, someone denying you access to what is leggally is yours, is a big no no..

Its the same as getting someone to write a program for you, the property is yours..

[kidd]

Its more to get return business im guessing, or to avoid other tuners getting the info off the ecu of your tune

However, its actually your property, the tune that is, you've paid good money for the tune, the intelectual property is yours, someone denying you access to what is leggally is yours, is a big no no..

Its the same as getting someone to write a program for you, the property is yours..

easy to see why everything today is created so the consumer is busted when he starts getting curious. The notebook I am on is mine but if I screwed with its before my warranty run out it would practically call Steve Jobs mobile phone. Which is fine but try getting it fixed when I mess up and the terms change. Problem arises when its time to blame for the fault.

you tune your car and get a dyno sheet that explains all the IProperty you have. and from exp,dont touch it

Guess its a loophole in tuning thats yet to be covered. Theres too many double standards

Edited February 6, 2007 by kidd

[N I B]

We have tryed to get Passwords but tho its not quite legal you cant get them.Now we just wipe and start again.

[kidd]

Im sure that will change somehow, Dont know how tho as I dont run a performance shop and my opinions will be hot air.

I bet the dyno (dyno dynamics etc) which is the base tool in AUS tuning went through some stage of confusion before it somehow became standardised/regulated with the shootout mode. but I cannot comment on this just speculating.

are we still on topic?

Edited February 6, 2007 by kidd

[Denver]

easy to see why everything today is created so the consumer is busted when he starts getting curious. The notebook I am on is mine but if I screwed with its before my warranty run out it would practically call Steve Jobs mobile phone. Which is fine but try getting it fixed when I mess up and the terms change. Problem arises when its time to blame for the fault.

you tune your car and get a dyno sheet that explains all the IProperty you have. and from exp,dont touch it

Guess its a loophole in tuning thats yet to be covered. Theres too many double standards

Not so much a loophole, basically, it comes down to a tuner trying to force you to come home, or stop others seeing his work, however, he is technically breaking the law, by denying you access to your property...

A smart tuner however, should be able to compare the old tune and the one in the ecu and see any differences, unless the owner has been smart, and reloaded the old tune, however, im, pegging most ECU's will have a form of logging that shows when maps where changed/updated or loaded, so you could see if funny games have been going on..

We have tryed to get Passwords but tho its not quite legal you cant get them.Now we just wipe and start again.

You can actually, i usually find when the words "lawyer" and "legal action" are used, people give up the passwords, VERY quickly..

Interlectual property is a grey area, but the simple fact is, you pay for it, you get access to it, if someone locks you out of your own property, you have the right to claim compo and all other manner of cash bonus's back to yourself for the hardship and agrovation suffered..

[Denver]

I bet the dyno (dyno dynamics etc) which is the base tool in AUS tuning went through some stage of confusion before it somehow became standardised/regulated with the shootout mode. but I cannot comment on this just speculating.

Without trying to start a flame war, so people hold on, this isn't an attack, mearly discussion..

The DD shootout mode thing IMHO, is a bit of a crock, shootout as far as ive ever been able to tell from a lot of reading, is a dyno dynamics thing only..

Now while, it does offer a large semblance of simularity between accredited DD dynos, its till, only a standard implemented within dyno dynamics units only, no one else.

If there was a standard that was implemented between all dyno's, then its a standard, when its limited to one brand, its not really a standard, just a given that that particular brand, will be within a certain % to every other unit out therer...

That is where i feel, the DD unit falls down with its claim to be the best, YES, it has implemented a standard, but it is its OWN standard, that no one else uses, why, im not sure, possibly because others feel the maths/calculations to it are wrong, or simply because other makers feel there is no need for a standard..

Personally im not a fan of it, dyno's are trickable, and always will be when you have stuff like external probes which can be fooled, and give a higher/incorrect reading, a la the eddie tasone 1800hp figure...

Guess it still boils down to dynos being a tuning tool, everyone will have there favorite brand..

[teejay]

However Denver its accepted because it returns consistent and reliable results when used CORRECTLY.

[Denver]

However Denver its accepted because it returns consistent and reliable results when used CORRECTLY.

This is true, but, its still a standard within a single brand..

NOT a widely used and proven method of power reading between multiple brands..

[kidd]

guess you should email http://www.autodata.ltd.uk/about.asp and ask them about a programme

But you have to realise a single standard between all dynos will make the readings worse. unless they are all swiss made if u know what I mean. But I still get your point as ive seen different readings...........same car(weather maybe). I blame physics mostly

Iwas just imagining if all tyres had the same standard tread, u would see ferraris on nankangs.

standards within brands are what make the brand in the end, and the hardest person to fool is an engineer. So im guessing its credible cos they cant be where they are by luck.

Edited February 6, 2007 by kidd

[Mr. Keets]

We can drink and argue this one day

Sounds good, dont know we'd have much to argue about though

People who live with modified cars are bi-polar depressed types like me. Sky high one minute and in tears the next.

Not so much a loophole, basically, it comes down to a tuner trying to force you to come home, or stop others seeing his work, however, he is technically breaking the law, by denying you access to your property...

Damn right!

The DD "shootout" mode seems half way between a marketing plan and a real attempt at creating a universal basis for comparison...beta was a better tape format than VHS, but VHS was marketed better, and we all saw where that ended up.

[R31 Chick]

Shootout mode was created to try and even things up and make more fair comparisons. It was Dyno Dynamics trying to do the right but as with anything people find ways through it.

Dyno Dynamics are always trying to improve their dyno's and personally have my full credit.

[kidd]

Not so much a loophole, basically, it comes down to a tuner trying to force you to come home, or stop others seeing his work, however, he is technically breaking the law, by denying you access to your property...

A smart tuner however, should be able to compare the old tune and the one in the ecu and see any differences, unless the owner has been smart, and reloaded the old tune, however, im, pegging most ECU's will have a form of logging that shows when maps where changed/updated or loaded, so you could see if funny games have been going on..

You can actually, i usually find when the words "lawyer" and "legal action" are used, people give up the passwords, VERY quickly..

Interlectual property is a grey area, but the simple fact is, you pay for it, you get access to it, if someone locks you out of your own property, you have the right to claim compo and all other manner of cash bonus's back to yourself for the hardship and agrovation suffered..

asked a lawyer about this IP thing, basically youre right and yes its a grey area, but if the tuner makes you sign an agreement that he has performed the job, and touching it would void his contract. Youre screwed!! (if u do) cos all of a sudden its your IP and you performed the tune as well. But if things go wrong this contract is on your side/benefit cos you can discuss how to fix.........

Oh and they wont refuse you access but put 'barriers' that you could take off if you insist, but they as a business dont have to know you after that.

Also mentioned that nothing is 'actually' yours unless you can reproduce it. Its licenced to someone else. so apexi would be the only one who could have a strong case for refusing to disclose the tune. Was confused by this stage cos the IP you were referring to was the tune and not the ECU. Anyway He was looking at his watch so I kept it brief (might get billed LOL).

Guess this is how the FCON approved thing works. cos their legally playing it safe.

still looking at the baby z-tune site, but id be pissed off if I forked out for a Z-TUNE and saw one of these

http://www.carsfactory.co.jp/packagecar/bnr34_fsgt.html

wonder where gtst vspec is, remember telling him about rb26 R1

need beer!

[kidd]

oh and lawyer sed its easier to make up a contract based on liability, where u can fiddle with it as much as u want, once you drive off the premises youre on your own. Suddenly fineprint begins to make sense cos this doesnt cover alot.

Edited February 7, 2007 by kidd

[Denver]

oh and lawyer sed its easier to make up a contract based on liability, where u can fiddle with it as much as u want, once you drive off the premises youre on your own. Suddenly fineprint begins to make sense cos this doesnt cover alot.

thats pretty much how it is anyway, driveway warranty, onc eon the road, your on your own..