R33 Rb30 Conversion

[Cubes]

I wont bother going in to the XR specs as we are comparing apples and apples.

Specs from here!

---- EL & AU Standard Ford 4ltr

157kW @ 4900 rpm.

357Nm @ 3000 rpm.

---- EL Standard Ford V8 5ltr.

EL - 165kw @ 4500 rpm.

EL - 388Nm @ 3000 rpm.

---- AU Standard Ford V8 5ltr.

175kw @ 4600rpm

395Nm @ 3000rpm

--------

VS Commodore Specs - From Here

---- Standard V6

147 kW @ 5200 RPM

304 Nm @ 3600 RPM

---- Standard V8 5ltr

165 kW @ 4400 RPM - 168kw for Series II -- wow

385 Nm @ 3600 RPM

Sorry to get a bit off topic peoples..

Oh and if you ask why a VS will blow away a EL.. Slap a Manual in the El and a Manual in the VS then watch the EL fly..

The Auto g/boxes in the Falcoons are geared extremly bad.. 80km's in first isn't to good.

If you ask why a VS Auto will blow away a EL Auto.. The Ford's gearing is a lot longer than the Commodores.

Slap a Manual in the EL and you will be suprised how it actually kicks the VS Manual's arse If you ever come up against a Manual EL you will notice how quick they are off the line without stalling it up.. A VS V8 has no chance against it and has to reel it in very very slowly.

[Steve]

FARK Joel, those sites really push home what average performance that aust built cars have been passing. I honestly thought they werent anywhere near that bad. It pretty bloody average. Thanks for those links

[Sydneykid]

Hi Guys, you are looking at the horsepower figures and thinking 157 kw for a 4 litre 6 and comparing it to a 160 kw from an RB20DET 2 litre 6. But, take a look at the torque figures, 357 Nm vesus 263 Nm. That's 36% more torque (the V8 is 50%), that's good for turning the auto, stop start traffic, lugging the family, pulling the boat, towing the Skyline race car etc.

The average person who buys one of those (even though they probably don't even know it) is using the low rpm torque way more than the higher rpm horsepower. We, on the other hand like to use the horsepower.

As they say "horses for courses".

[Cubes]

Thats why when the gearing is sorted with the Fords they go so well.

[JNR24]

Just a quick note, Ford Turbo XR6 BA injectors= Bosh motorsport 560CC injectors. (One of my friends got them flow tested)

And at 87 bucks a injector from ford! it looks like the perfect injector if your running a custom fuel rail.

these injectors should have enough flow for 500-600HP =)

Not sure on imperdiance, i will check with Mr.multimeter when i get home!

I am now at the point were i will be looking for a computer. What type of computer are other people running with this conversion?

I have a couple of questions so bear with me!

MAP sensors? Were do they sit? AFM Vs MAP sensors? pros cons?

I have been looking around a little bit, heard some good stuff about the APEXI-FC, but it because of the AFM its not much good over 300RWKW.... =(

Anyone heard over the Apexi FC pros?? And what other computers use a MAP sensor?

Lots of questions, sorry its all over the place! =P

Cheers,

Trev

[sik32]

I am personally running a microtech for this conversion

From the first of june nengun performance are selling pfc+ hand contoller delivered for approx $1300, you cant pass that up if your in the market for a computer.

Good luck

[JNR24]

any details about the computer Sik32?

I want o get a little bit deeper than that! =)

e.g. How does it measure Air? AFM? MAP both??

what are you running AFM or MAP sensor? were does the MAP sensor mount? whats more accurate?

Microtech sounds ok for the price, but what can it do? is it a complete change over (plugn play computer)? data loging? specs?

Sorry about the questions i just need to know! =)

Cheers,

Trev

[sik32]

Microtech

LT8/x $1095

Plug n play for r33

Inj Drivers 4

ign outputs 4

tps yes

primary sensor map

log/rpm 16/16

resolution 500rpm

aux dig inputs 1

aux outputs 1

acel pump yes

boost control yes

hand control yes

LT12/x $1395

differences are

inj drivers 6

ign output 6

Good luck

[JNR24]

Thats fine so the micro tech uses a MAP sensor. NOw were is that located on the RB25? If its not there, (which i dont think it is because it uses a AFM) were do you install one?

Thanks for this dude!

I take it your going to be running the LT12?

[sik32]

Im running the LT8

I think the map sensor is on the left hand side of the firewall, when you open the bonnet.(litttle box with a rubber hose and some wires comming out of it.

Not AFM needed anymore when getting microtech

Good luck

[JNR24]

if its the same litte black box that i think it is, thats for the electronic boost sensor for the factory gauge. (black box on a peg, with a black hose going into the plenum?)

Anyways in the spec that you posted it says the LT8 only has:

Inj Drivers 4

ign outputs 4

Dont we need 6 ? like the L12?? or are they additional ign & inj?

[sik32]

yer thats the one!!!

Im not expert but it's something to do with the LT8 runs sequential fire, which can still be used on skylines

But the LT12 has 6 which is direct fire ignition and injection. which would give better spark.

Im not worried about the spark, as i will be running 6 external bosch coils when i finish the conversion

[Steve]

Power FC will handle alot more than 300rwkw - in japan they use them on big hp applications. Downside is that you cannot remove the AFM, but AFM is good for street.

Wolf 3D will allow MAP or AFM, Autronic runs MAP, Microtec runs MAP, list goes on.

Have only heard good things about the new Wolf 3D V4.5#, but it will depend on what your tuner is comfy with. Autronic are very good too. One thing you will have with a wolf or autronic is that you can run injectors of either high or low impedance.

Do the ford injectors fit the stock runners? If they are high impedance they would be a good upgrade for RB20DET too.

[sik32]

Same with microtech Chief, any injector and impedience

[Steve]

Also, greenline are selling power fc for about 1-1.1k (aust) at the moment.

If you do a search for info on wolf, power fc, autronic, microtec etc, there is heaps of info on past threads as this topic has been covered in some depth before.

[Sydneykid]

Hi JNR24, firstly let's dispel a few myths. Here is the chart of AFM meters I use when working out which one/pair to use with a Power FC to achieve the horsepower target.

1 X RB20/25 AFM = 370 bhp = 220 rwkw

1 X Z32 AFM = 420 bhp = 260 rwkw

2 X RB26 AFM's = 475 bhp = 300 rwkw

2 X Z32 AFM's = 700 bhp = 470 rwkw

1 X Q45 AFM = 480 bhp = 300 rwkw

2 X Q45 AFM's = 850 bhp = 550 rwkw

With the Power FC you select the afm from the menu, simple.

A MAP sensor, as it say measures Manifold Absolute Pressure, so you can take the pressure hose from anywhere between the throttle butterfly and the inlet valves. Most people "T" off the boost sensor hose. Some ECU's have the MAP sensor itself built into the ECU box, so you just run the pressure hose to the ECU.

Others have a separate MAP sensor, with a short harness to the ECU, that you stick anywhere convenient.

AFM's, because they very accurately measure the actual air flowing into the engine, are quite simply the best method for determining how much air your engine is using and therefore how much fuel to add.

A MAP sensor simulates measuring airflow by measuring the pressure. It's pretty good, but simply can not be as accurate as an AFM. MAP's also have problems with multiple throttle butterflies (as in GTR's) as you have to take pressure readings from each cylinder. With large overlap camshafts this becomes a real problem at idle and low rpm.

AFM's are not without their own issues on very high performance engines. They measure airflow, it doesn't matter whether the flow is into the engine or out of it,. The AFM will measure it and the ECU will add the fuel. So if you have a big turbo, you can get airflow reversion when you close the throttle sharply and the AFM will measure the air as it goes in and then measure it again when it bounces back out of the turbo. Twice as much fuel as necessary gets added and the engine stalls. You can buy averaging boxes (HKS is one) that eliminate this problem, so that the engine returns to and maintains a stable idle after a rapid throttle closing.

So getting back to your original question, there is no doubt in my mind that for a road car there is nothing better than an AFM sensor driven ECU and that means Power FC. For $1300 you simply take it out of the box, plug it in and the car starts and runs nicely all within 10 minutes. Normal dyno fine tuning, as for any other ECU, would be necessary, before you rip into it.

If you are seriously looking for more than 500 bhp then you are going to have to spend around $20K on the engine and the necessary support systems for that amount of power. In that case I would recommend the Motec/Autronic level of ECU.

There are arguments for the Link, Microtec, EMS etc level of ECU. But as the price of Power FC's continues to come down and the availabilty of laptop tuning and data logging (via Datalogit software) this starts to become less relevant. Plus they are becoming even more common and workshops now have good experience with tuning them.

That's my 20 cents worth, hope it adds to the thread.

[JNR24]

Hi JNR24, firstly let's dispel a few myths. Here is the chart of AFM meters I use when working out which one/pair to use with a Power FC to achieve the horsepower target.  

1 X RB20/25 AFM = 370 bhp = 220 rwkw  

1 X Z32 AFM = 420 bhp = 260 rwkw  

2 X RB26 AFM's = 475 bhp = 300 rwkw  

2 X Z32 AFM's = 700 bhp = 470 rwkw  

1 X Q45 AFM = 480 bhp = 300 rwkw  

2 X Q45 AFM's = 850 bhp = 550 rwkw  

With the Power FC you select the afm from the menu, simple.

Thanx for your post sydneykid, I am running a single turbo and am looking at power figuers of about 400-450 RWKW...... Anything in that chart over 300RWKW requiers two AFMs.....??

Is there away around this on a single turbo setup?

What computer would you recommend with this power figure in mind??

or just run a split air flow pipe from the turbo into two AFMS, with 2 air filters?? GTR styles????

[Sydneykid]

Hi, JNR24, let me make sure I have this right, you are looking at an 800 bhp, single turbo, manual gearbox, 2 wheel drive application?

If that is the case, then I would personally go for a Motec ECU. You are going to benefit from the functionality of models from the M48 Pro (with Advanced Tuning Options) upwards as follows;

data logging

traction control

launch control

full closed loop control using fast and wide lambda sensing

32 bit processing

individual injector trim

individual cylinder ignition trim

air temperature compensation

engine temperature compensation

exhaust gas temperature compensation

over run boost enhancement (anti lag)

wastegate control

gear position compensation

soft and hard rpm limits

intercooler spray control

For that level you are looking at around $6K installed and wired with a base map for running in the engine. With normal tuning do and charge following that.

Hope that is of some help

[GiJOr33]

I've posted this before in another thread, but here it is again.

It's a chart with the different computers and the main features each has so just click here

i've got a HKS FCONV, no idea what features it has but i've been told they are very good if you can find someone to tune it (which hopefully i have).

Cheers,

Andrew

[Cubes]

There is a new microtech being released in the next few months that is supposed to be plug and play that supports closed loop, knock sensor, traction control etc.. L16 I believe.

Microtech's arn't the best of fuel though.